142 réponses à ce sujet

[TheEgoRaptor]

I believe, as Mordin says, "They are adapting to the Genophage."

And given enough time, that is if they can survive long enough with the problem of the reapers and the sterility issue, that they will evolve and overcome the 'disease'. Evolution has tought as that much. Things, given enough time, adapt.

[Dirty_Dan]

I kept the cure just in case, but it seems that the krogan are better off with out it. If they get the cure, they go back to the old ways. If not, they actually have to get civilized

[PrinceLionheart]

Nightwriter wrote...

If you cure the genophage Wrex isn't going to lose power. He's a strong leader. That's why he's in power. Not because there is no genophage cure.

Actually Wrex made it pretty explicit that the only thing that keeps the other clans in line is the fact that they're women are in neutral territory. The fact that the genophage is cured would mean that there would no longer be a need to keep the females there, which would also result in no power check.

[AkiKishi]

Capeo wrote...

^^^Okeer mentions 1000 in a clutch. That's a lot more than any turtle.

Would that even be physically possible ?

Krogan are big but they are not that big.

Sea Turtles lay 80-120 I guess it depends how big a baby Krogan is.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 février 2011 - 09:21 .

[SajPl]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

^^^Okeer mentions 1000 in a clutch. That's a lot more than any turtle.

Would that even be physically possible ?

Krogan are big but they are not that big.

Sea Turtles lay 80-120 I guess it depends how big a baby Krogan is.

I think this should not be taken to the letter. Mordin states that the genophage let's 1 in 1000 fetuses survive. So I guess that Okeer means that let 1000 die and 1 survive, not that one Krogan female gives birth to 1000 children at once.

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

If you cure the genophage Wrex isn't going to lose power. He's a strong leader. That's why he's in power. Not because there is no genophage cure.

Actually Wrex made it pretty explicit that the only thing that keeps the other clans in line is the fact that they're women are in neutral territory. The fact that the genophage is cured would mean that there would no longer be a need to keep the females there, which would also result in no power check.

Even if the other clans won't want to listen to Wrex after curing the genophage they will all get what they want - a BIG war and I suppose Urdnot would be strong enough to win that war and introduce some kind of birth control - like what he is doing now with the female camps but the other way - now they want to have as much kids as possible, after the cure they would restrict the Krogan from having too many kids.

I think that the Krogan should be given a second chance to rebuild their culture and leave all the hopelessness behind them. If they still are agresive and want to expand Humans and Turians could destroy them utterly like Mordin said.

Modifié par SajPl, 03 février 2011 - 11:50 .

[PrinceLionheart]

SajPl wrote...

I think that the Krogan should be given a second chance to rebuild their culture and leave all the hopelessness behind them. If they still are agresive and want to expand Humans and Turians could destroy them utterly like Mordin said.

But that's exactly what they're doing right now under Wrex, while the genophage is still intact. You're idea completely undermines the everything they've already started to accomplish.

[SajPl]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

SajPl wrote...

I think that the Krogan should be given a second chance to rebuild their culture and leave all the hopelessness behind them. If they still are agresive and want to expand Humans and Turians could destroy them utterly like Mordin said.

But that's exactly what they're doing right now under Wrex, while the genophage is still intact. You're idea completely undermines the everything they've already started to accomplish.

Having 1000 kids die isn't my type of second chance

[Capeo]

SajPl wrote...

Capeo wrote...

^^^Okeer mentions 1000 in a clutch. That's a lot more than any turtle.

I think this should not be taken to the letter. Mordin states that the genophage let's 1 in 1000 fetuses survive. So I guess that Okeer means that let 1000 die and 1 survive, not that one Krogan female gives birth to 1000 children at once.

Hi exact words are "let a 1000 die in a clutch".  A clutch is a single laying of eggs, by definition.

SajPl wrote...

Even if the other clans won't want to listen to Wrex after curing the genophage they will all get what they want - a BIG war and I suppose Urdnot would be strong enough to win that war and introduce some kind of birth control - like what he is doing now with the female camps but the other way - now they want to have as much kids as possible, after the cure they would restrict the Krogan from having too many kids.

I think that the Krogan should be given a second chance to rebuild their culture and leave all the hopelessness behind them. If they still are agresive and want to expand Humans and Turians could destroy them utterly like Mordin said.

Wrex is dead in my game so his clan isn't going to do anything.

The simple fact is, if the genophage is cured, the Krogan would spread again.  They have spaceflight now.  There is nothing to indicate their culture barbarism is in any way changed.

[Zing Freelancer]

I think the idea of Grunt was to create a pre-nuclear-war Krogan. That had could control his blood rage but also had best genes out of all krogans.

If Grunt have 10 kids and in turn his 10 kids have 10 kids, eventually Krogan will have genetically strong population. Regarding of number, a single Krogan worrier will be worth 100 Turian soldiers, that what I assume was Okeers idea behind Grunt.



On the other hand it is when Krogan suffered self-inflicted nuclear winter things turned out bad. Because before blood rage was treated like a disease, after nuclear winter blood rage become standard among Krogan.

Then came the salarians.

[Whatever42]

SajPl wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

SajPl wrote...

I think that the Krogan should be given a second chance to rebuild their culture and leave all the hopelessness behind them. If they still are agresive and want to expand Humans and Turians could destroy them utterly like Mordin said.

But that's exactly what they're doing right now under Wrex, while the genophage is still intact. You're idea completely undermines the everything they've already started to accomplish.

Having 1000 kids die isn't my type of second chance

That's 1000 kids never born. It's simply enforced birth control.

The pain Wrex describes isn't kids dying. It's that Krogan are having their culture torn from them. Krogan culture has them having scores of children and then having the strong survive through brutal combat. Telling a krogan female she can't have children is agonizing. Stripping krogan of their brutal rites is agonizing. Having to care for every krogan child instead of throwing them all into combat-to-the-death so only the strongest few survive is a shock to their system.

Humans can adapt quickly. We have short lives and every generation can redefine itself to some degree. Krogan live 1000 years. As a society, movement is glacial. So Krogan have been beating their heads against this genophage wall instead of adapting to it.

Wrex is finally changing that. He's ending the bloodbath. Breeding is being deliberately managed. Children are being valued. Basically, Krogan are adapting and those adaptions will allow them to participate in a galactic civilization.

Yes, in our age of moral relativism, who are we to say that Krogan can't be savage with no value for life. Personally, I think the Salarians have preserved as much of Krogan civilization as they could rather than simply exterminate them. It was the ethically correct choice.

[Big I]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

That's 1000 kids never born. It's simply enforced birth control.

...

Yes, in our age of moral relativism, who are we to say that Krogan can't be savage with no value for life. Personally, I think the Salarians have preserved as much of Krogan civilization as they could rather than simply exterminate them. It was the ethically correct choice.

It was not ethically correct. You propose that the choice was between extermination or sterilisation; that one or the other was the only way to end the krogan rebellions. However, in order for the turians to be in a position to enact either plan they'd have to be in a position of relative strength to the krogan; in order to drop either asteroids or the genophage on krogan worlds requires that the krogans be unable to stop them. If the turians are in such a position, why do they need to resort to such measures in the first place? The answer: disarmament.


The genophage was not deployed as a means of ending the rebellions, but as a means of ensuring they didn't happen again. The turians decided to artificially restrict krogan reproduction as a means of social control. This is a false choice. As the victors in the rebellions, they could have insisted on the same disarmament measures they later enacted (the CDEM troops and weapons restrictions we hear about in ME2). They could have reached out to political parties agreeable to peace, people like Wrex or Wrex's grandfather, or any krogan who saw where the rebellions had taken them. They could have done what the salarians should have done in the first place and supported a krogan industrial, scientific and cultural base instead of using them solely as expendable shock troops against the rachni. Instead they passed a judgment on the entire krogan species when they had other options.


What are the results of the genophage? Women valued only for their fertility; the increase of attacks on non-combatants in clan warfare; mass adoption of nihlistic philospohies and a lack of hope and drive for the future. The genophage did nothing to reform krogan society, it only made existing problems worse and threatened the long term vialbility of the entire species.


As a final note, the genophage does not effect fertility; this Codex entry shows it affects the viability of unborn children to come to term. That's what the "mountains of krogan dead" the Weyrloc Speaker is talking about; the 999 out of every 1000 krogan pregnancies that end in stillbirths.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 04 février 2011 - 04:10 .

[Capeo]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

I think the idea of Grunt was to create a pre-nuclear-war Krogan. That had could control his blood rage but also had best genes out of all krogans.
If Grunt have 10 kids and in turn his 10 kids have 10 kids, eventually Krogan will have genetically strong population. Regarding of number, a single Krogan worrier will be worth 100 Turian soldiers, that what I assume was Okeers idea behind Grunt.

On the other hand it is when Krogan suffered self-inflicted nuclear winter things turned out bad. Because before blood rage was treated like a disease, after nuclear winter blood rage become standard among Krogan.
Then came the salarians.

Okeer wasn't trying to control Krogan rage.  Okeer also didn't care about reproduction at all.  He wanted to test tube create a perfect army.  He felt that the genophage was making his people weak because the young were now coddled instead of being thrown to the wolves as in the past.  The weak were not being culled out anymore so he considered Krogan genetics to be dilluted now. 

[Whatever42]

That would be a completely unviable solution. The Krogan inhabit many worlds. They have space flight. Controlling them through treaties and inspections is so off-the-charts unviable, I don't know where to start.



The Krogan would never abide by any treaty. Heck, they would refuse to sign any treaty. Wrex's father? Even after the Krogan were beaten into the dust, he wanted to continue the war. You would be imposing control on them by force. And you would have to maintain that force. It would mean restrictions galore - on technology, on travel, on everything. And the Krogan numbers would continue to grow out of control. And the Turians would have to control that.



And they would continue to direct those numbers at you. It would be unending warfare. Sure, the Turians would win but thousands of years of war? Totally unviable.



The Krogan are highly xenophobic. Getting them to accept Salarian tutelage would be impossible. Establishing societal change from the outside would be impossible.



And the Krogan are reptilian. Okeer talks about clutches. That seems to indicate egg laying in some fashion. So its not as traumatic as still births.

[Wulfram]

The genophage is going to be cured by somebody. Better if it's not Saren or Weyrlock Guld.



Krogans aren't half the threat to the galaxy that the humans are, anyway.

[Capeo]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

That's 1000 kids never born. It's simply enforced birth control.

...

Yes, in our age of moral relativism, who are we to say that Krogan can't be savage with no value for life. Personally, I think the Salarians have preserved as much of Krogan civilization as they could rather than simply exterminate them. It was the ethically correct choice.

It was not ethically correct. You propose that the choice was between extermination or sterilisation; that one or the other was the only way to end the krogan rebellions. However, in order for the turians to be in a position to enact either plan they'd have to be in a position of relative strength to the krogan; in order to drop either asteroids or the genophage on krogan worlds requires that the krogans be unable to stop them. If the turians are in such a position, why do they need to resort to such measures in the first place? The answer: disarmament.


The genophage was not deployed as a means of ending the rebellions, but as a means of ensuring they didn't happen again. The turians decided to artificially restrict krogan reproduction as a means of social control. This is a false choice. As the victors in the rebellions, they could have insisted on the same disarmament measures they later enacted (the CDEM troops and weapons restrictions we hear about in ME2). They could have reached out to political parties agreeable to peace, people like Wrex or Wrex's grandfather, or any krogan who saw where the rebellions had taken them. They could have done what the salarians should have done in the first place and supported a krogan industrial, scientific and cultural base instead of using them solely as expendable shock troops against the rachni. Instead they passed a judgment on the entire krogan species when they had other options.


What are the results of the genophage? Women valued only for their fertility; the increase of attacks on non-combatants in clan warfare; mass adoption of nihlistic philospohies and a lack of hope and drive for the future. The genophage did nothing to reform krogan society, it only made existing problems worse and threatened the long term vialbility of the entire species.


As a final note, the genophage does not effect fertility; this Codex entry shows it affects the viability of unborn children to come to term. That's what the "mountains of krogan dead" the Weyrloc Speaker is talking about; the 999 out of every 1000 krogan pregnancies that end in stillbirths.

Uh, no, the genophage was used to the end the rebellions.  Without its use the Krogan likely would have won.  Originally the salarians had no intention of using it but instead wanted to hold it as a deterrent.  The turians, their homeworlds being ravaged, decided, on the other hand, that enough is enough.  There is no indication the turians had any chance of winning the war without it and the krogan never would have surrendered had it not been deployed.  You're talking like the turians won then deployed it.  While it's true turian military philosophy is to permanently neutralize a threat, it never would have come to that had the krogan decided they could take whatever they want.

You start a war of aggression you take the consequences.  If the krogan weren't, on the whole, so stupid they would realize that even now their population would grow if they weren't so fatalistic and barbaric. 

As for the ethics of the decision?  What's more ethical in war when facing an enemy that wants what you have?  Committing endless troops and countless lives to fruitless battle or using a weapon that can end the war then an there?  Ethically, your responsibility is to protect your people from an aggressor through the best means you have and preserving as many of your peoples' lives as possible.  The aggressor be damned.

[SajPl]

Wulfram wrote...

The genophage is going to be cured by somebody. Better if it's not Saren or Weyrlock Guld.

Agreed.

The problem is that we do not know what the Krogan would do if we cured the genophage, so the simplest way of knowing is curing it, if they are happy and reform into a more peaceful society, very good, if they want to wage war on everybody, wipe them out and you wouldn't even have to feel bad about it because it was them (again) that started the conflict.

Capeo wrote...
Uh, no, the genophage was used to the end the rebellions.  Without its use the Krogan likely would have won.  Originally the salarians had no intention of using it but instead wanted to hold it as a deterrent.  The turians, their homeworlds being ravaged, decided, on the other hand, that enough is enough.  There is no indication the turians had any chance of winning the war without it and the krogan never would have surrendered had it not been deployed.  You're talking like the turians won then deployed it.  While it's true turian military philosophy is to permanently neutralize a threat, it never would have come to that had the krogan decided they could take whatever they want.

If I remember correctly my chats with Mordin, he said that the Krogan could have recovered after the rebellions and start them anew. So if they could recover that would mean that they lost at the hands of the Turians who then deployed the genophage to ensure the krogan not recovering.
Krogan are tough but Turians+Salarians+Asari = they lost the rebellsions and the genophage was supposed to prevent them from happening again by not letting Krogan replenish their numbers so fast.

Modifié par SajPl, 04 février 2011 - 05:04 .

[Capeo]

SajPl wrote...

If I remember correctly my chats with Mordin, he said that the Krogan could have recovered after the rebellions and start them anew. So if they could recover that would mean that they lost at the hands of the Turians who then deployed the genophage to ensure the krogan not recovering.
Krogan are tough but Turians+Salarians+Asari = they lost the rebellsions and the genophage was supposed to prevent them from happening again by not letting Krogan replenish their numbers so fast.

According to the codex:

"The arrival of turian task forces saved many worlds from the warlords' marauding fleets, but it took the development of the genophage bioweapon to end the war."


"The genophage bioweapon was created to end the Krogan Rebellions. From the start, the krogan had overwhelmed the Council. Only timely first contact with the turians saved the Council races. The turians fought the krogans to a standstill, but the sheer weight of krogan numbers indicated the war could not be won through conventional means. The turians collaborated with the salarians to genetically engineer a counter to the rapid breeding of the krogan. "

It was deployed during the war to end the war.

[Big I]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

That would be a completely unviable solution. The Krogan inhabit many worlds. They have space flight. Controlling them through treaties and inspections is so off-the-charts unviable, I don't know where to start.

The Krogan would never abide by any treaty. Heck, they would refuse to sign any treaty. Wrex's father? Even after the Krogan were beaten into the dust, he wanted to continue the war. You would be imposing control on them by force. And you would have to maintain that force. It would mean restrictions galore - on technology, on travel, on everything. And the Krogan numbers would continue to grow out of control. And the Turians would have to control that.

And they would continue to direct those numbers at you. It would be unending warfare. Sure, the Turians would win but thousands of years of war? Totally unviable.

The Krogan are highly xenophobic. Getting them to accept Salarian tutelage would be impossible. Establishing societal change from the outside would be impossible.

And the Krogan are reptilian. Okeer talks about clutches. That seems to indicate egg laying in some fashion. So its not as traumatic as still births.

The krogan are already controlled through treaty and inspection. That's what CDEM is, and that's what this Cerberus News report  is about. Why do you need a smaller krogan population to enforce the rules already in place?

I do not believe that a political solution is doomed to failure. That's exactly what Wrex is doing now. As for rejecting salarian influence, that's what the krogan uplift was about in the first place. They were more than happy to embrace outside ideas when they made first contact.

As for krogan being reptiles, they have no direct Earth analogue in terms of biology. What we know is that several Codex entries say that succesful pregnancies rely upon females to "carry children to term". Clutch could just as easily refer to multiple briths being the norm for a krogan pregnancy.

Capeo wrote...

According to the codex:

"The arrival of turian task forces saved many worlds from the warlords' marauding fleets, but it took the development of the genophage bioweapon to end the war."


"The genophage bioweapon was created to end the Krogan Rebellions. From the start, the krogan had overwhelmed the Council. Only timely first contact with the turians saved the Council races. The turians fought the krogans to a standstill, but the sheer weight of krogan numbers indicated the war could not be won through conventional means. The turians collaborated with the salarians to genetically engineer a counter to the rapid breeding of the krogan. "

It was deployed during the war to end the war.

Fighting them to a standstill means that conventional warfare was sufficient to match the krogan. The genophage was developed as the galactic equivalent of a nuclear deterent. However, before it could be used for that purpose the turians deployed it on every world with krogan on them. The ability to deploy something so thorougly as to infect every krogan in so many places without being foiled by the krogan implys a superiority in the turian space forces. The genophage was not deployed in order to stop existing krogan aggression, which had already been checked by the turians, but to end future aggression; to "disarm" them.


Consider the logic: you're facing a hundred krogans, and decide to drastically reduce their ability to have children. Once you've done so you're still facing a hundred krogan. The genophage would have no effect on any existing krogan forces, only on their potential for future conflict.


Question: over and beyond any effects on krogan society, if you're engaged in a war that you have "fought to a standstill", and your only means of achieveing total victory is to deploy a bioweapon against every enemy civilian, is it ethical to do so? Without first seeking a diplomatic solution or compromise?