78 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Keep in mind, when you're talking about real people, you're talking about them living a real hell. Getting self righteous and convincing yourself they deserve what they get doesn't make it so. People who abuse deserve to go to jail -- they're committing assault. But when a mother can get thrown in jail as well if her kids witness her abuse (yes, she can -- yes this happens), that makes it even more difficult for her to get out.

[ejoslin]

Harid wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I have the quote in MY post. What you write is not "loosely paraphrased." It's wrong.

Addressed.

Real mature on the passive-agressive insults, by the way.

I didn't consider anything I wrote passive-aggressive.  I don't really consider anything I wrote insulting either.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Harid]

ejoslin wrote...

Keep in mind, when you're talking about real people, you're talking about them living a real hell. Getting self righteous and convincing yourself they deserve what they get doesn't make it so. People who abuse deserve to go to jail -- they're committing assault. But when a mother can get thrown in jail as well if her kids witness her abuse (yes, she can -- yes this happens), that makes it even more difficult for her to get out.

Never stated the abusers don't deserve jail time, however in DA, there is no jail time for nobles for ****ting on the casteless.  And they have been doing this for a millenium.  So if your abuser can abuse you with impugnity, I don't feel sorry for you for taking it when you have an easy way out.  Keyword EASY.  Smart people don't wait for supermen, they do not exist.  Smart people take the neccesary path to no get abused.  The Dwarves deserve it.  Battered wives are a more complex issue and a bad analogy.  While I personally wouldn't go out of my way to save any particular one, I do feel sorry for their situation.  A better analogy would be mexicans fleeing Mexico to the US because of the cartel wars, or if the US had slavery and you live in Niagra Falls, NY, would you not flee to Canada.

Do you live in the United States?  Because I am pretty sure any Judge that pulled that would not be a judge for much longer.

Calling someone sheltered tends to be a passive aggresive way of calling them an idiot/naive.  I could not care less if you think I am an idiot, however you probably should keep it to yourself.

Take this to PM.  Gonna get the thread locked.

Modifié par Harid, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:15 .

[ejoslin]

Harid wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Keep in mind, when you're talking about real people, you're talking about them living a real hell. Getting self righteous and convincing yourself they deserve what they get doesn't make it so. People who abuse deserve to go to jail -- they're committing assault. But when a mother can get thrown in jail as well if her kids witness her abuse (yes, she can -- yes this happens), that makes it even more difficult for her to get out.

Do you live in the United States?  Because I am pretty sure any Judge that pulled that would not be a judge for much longer.

Calling someone sheltered tends to be a passive aggresive way of calling them an idiot/naive.  I could not careless if you think I am an idiot, however you probably should keep it to yourself.

Take this to PM.  Gonna get the thread locked.

Naw, they don't lock threads often here.  And yes, I live in the US.  And YES, this happens.  OMG, see THIS is a huge problem.  People do not realize what a rough spot women are in because of the "failure to protect" laws.  Look, you have a woman who has "failure to protect" on her record -- which IS child abuse.  And she can get charged with this if she was beaten in front of her kids.  You may think this law is wrong -- I agree.  *sigh*  I got this link (there are lots of them) by googling "failure to protect" and "losing custody of children."  I haven't researched the source, so this may not be the greatest link.  But all you have to do is spend some time with battered women to realize that what you consider impossible is their LIFE.

And calling someone sheltered is not calling them naive or an idiot -- I am telling you there is a lot out there that you honestly do not know anything about -- you ARE sheltered when it comes to this.  It would be so nice if abusers walked around with signs around their necks.  It would be wonderful if abuse was apparent from the start.  It would be fantastic if most abusers weren't great at manipulating women and making them feel trapped before the physical abuse began.  It would be better if families reacted with outrage to their adult children being in an abusive relationship and allowed them to come back home (assuming that would be a safe place).

Edit: Google this and see how much research has been done on this.  Here's one more.  This is the second relevant google link (there were a few others in between about a teenage mother whose child died in the foster care system so I am not including those).

Second edit: The only reason I know anything about this is I know a woman who this happened to, in a roundabout way.  It's not fiction when you see it happen to someone.  Women, especially abused women, do not usually have the same resources their abusive partners have.  They're most likely isolated, frightened, undergoing daily stress and fear, and very often have no way out. 

It shouldn't be this way.  Oh, I agree with you there.  Judges should be voted out.  But...  well, you know.  What should be, and what is are often very different.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[Ryzaki]

How did this go from Dwarven Nobles to abused women?

Though...damn I knew Bhelen was a douche but killing kids? It's things like that which cause me to just want to shoot both of them and crown random dude #4032

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

How did this go from Dwarven Nobles to abused women?

Hell if I know, but I have some strong feelings about it, so I'm gonna talk!

Edit: Actually, it's because of a post that said casteless dwarves deserve whatever abuse they get.

Second edit: And NO, Bhelen doesn't say that.  His first pick of soldiers for the blight apparently are the sons of Harrowmont supporters.  But you know, would you expect less?  He needs to send an army!

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...


Hell if I know, but I have some strong feelings about it, so I'm gonna talk!

Edit: Actually, it's because of a post that said casteless dwarves deserve whatever abuse they get.

Hm...

I have to say I don't completely disagree with the CD deserving the abuse they get. Sure they don't deserve deserve it but if you're going to stand their while someone punches you in the face I can't feel sorry for you.

Edit: Oh good. Because if he was that much of a douche and I wasn't allowed to kill him...<_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Sarah1281]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How did this go from Dwarven Nobles to abused women?

Hell if I know, but I have some strong feelings about it, so I'm gonna talk!

Edit: Actually, it's because of a post that said casteless dwarves deserve whatever abuse they get.

Second edit: And NO, Bhelen doesn't say that.  His first pick of soldiers apparently are the sons of Harrowmont supporters, from a noble who is afraid his son will be drafted.

Yeah, when you get a post saying (paraphrased, obviously) 'The casteless deserve what they get for not getting out of their horrible situation' then it has some definite Unfortuante Implications.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


Hell if I know, but I have some strong feelings about it, so I'm gonna talk!

Edit: Actually, it's because of a post that said casteless dwarves deserve whatever abuse they get.

Hm...

I have to say I don't completely disagree with the CD deserving the abuse they get. Sure they don't deserve deserve it but if you're going to stand their while someone punches you in the face I can't feel sorry for you.

I see it more of a ghetto life.  I don't think anyone deserves abuse, though, and when it extrapolates to violence against families, I have even more to say

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

I see it more of a ghetto life.  I don't think anyone deserves abuse, though, and when it extrapolates to violence against families, I have even more to say

Meh. I lived that life and the second I could hit back I did. So yeah I can't feel sorry for those that don't hit back. I pity them...but I can't really sympathize.

We all make choices even when we don't feel we actually have any as Morrigan says.

And abuse has no social standing. The rich are abused as easily as the poor. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Sarah1281]

There's a difference between saying that you can't sympathize with them (especially since you seem to be speaking from the viewpoint of 'I was there and I took steps to get out of there so I feel like they could as well') and that they DESERVE it, though. A pretty big difference.

Edit: 

Naw, they don't lock threads often here. 

What happened to that bestiality thread yesterday? Did it just get deleted outright or moved? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

There's a difference between saying that you can't sympathize with them (especially since you seem to be speaking from the viewpoint of 'I was there and I took steps to get out of there so I feel like they could as well') and that they DESERVE it, though. A pretty big difference.

Ah well no one really deserves most of the things they get good or bad.

Well...that's my viewpoint on things at least.

Edit: There was a bestality thread? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I see it more of a ghetto life.  I don't think anyone deserves abuse, though, and when it extrapolates to violence against families, I have even more to say

Meh. I lived that life and the second I could hit back I did. So yeah I can't feel sorry for those that don't hit back. I pity them...but I can't really sympathize.

We all make choices even when we don't feel we actually have any as Morrigan says.

And abuse has no social standing. The rich are abused as easily as the poor. <_<

Who brought up money?  OF course rich women are abused. And they usually have no access to the family money, or very little, or have to have a strict accounting, and if they try to leave, have a husband who has lots of money to throw at a lawyer and really make her life hell.

*sigh*  I could give a lot of examples.  You hit back.  My husband spent his teen years in group homes (not foster homes, mind you, group homes, with criminals, because there was no other place for him) because of the abuse he went through. I mentioned one of my best friends getting away fairly recently and her husband trying to intimidate me (which did NOT work).  If you work with battered women, you'll find strong women, weak women, educated women, stupid women, rich women, poor women, etc.  

You hit back.  That's awesome.  Not everyone will have the strength, ability, or guts to do so.  That doesn't mean they deserve to be abused.

[Sarah1281]

Yes, it was by a troll who wanted Dog to be romanceable.

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

There's a difference between saying that you can't sympathize with them (especially since you seem to be speaking from the viewpoint of 'I was there and I took steps to get out of there so I feel like they could as well') and that they DESERVE it, though. A pretty big difference.

Edit: 

Naw, they don't lock threads often here. 

What happened to that bestiality thread yesterday? Did it just get deleted outright or moved? 

It got deleted outright.  But when you have "Lets have Beastiality[sic]" in the title and the first post calling for a romance with dog, what do you expect?

Edit: And of course, threads do get locked occasionally here, but only if someone's complaining or if it's way too long.  And that usually doesn't happen over a few off topic posts.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Who brought up money?  OF course rich women are abused. And they usually have no access to the family money, or very little, or have to have a strict accounting, and if they try to leave, have a husband who has lots of money to throw at a lawyer and really make her life hell.

*sigh*  I could give a lot of examples.  You hit back.  My husband spent his teen years in group homes (not foster homes, mind you, group homes, with criminals, because there was no other place for him) because of the abuse he went through. I mentioned one of my best friends getting away fairly recently and her husband trying to intimidate me (which did NOT work).  If you work with battered women, you'll find strong women, weak women, educated women, stupid women, rich women, poor women, etc.  

You hit back.  That's awesome.  Not everyone will have the strength, ability, or guts to do so.  That doesn't mean they deserve to be abused.

"Ghetto" now it might just be my culture but ghetto is usually an area of the poor. If that's not what you meant then I apologize.

When did I say they deserve to be abused?   I distinctly remember saying most people did not get what they deserved good or bad. <_< Nice twisting my words.

Me not feeling sorry for them =/= them deserving what they got.

I don't have to feel sorry for someone whose sick that doesn't mean they deserved their sickness.

You're obviously angry about the issue. Step back for a while and calm down and read my posts again.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Harid]

Failure to Protect laws don't seem to have a high incidence of conviction, no offense, so I am confused as to how you are bringing this up as some huge kind of issue.

I mean, I can also bring up links of the high incidence of mothers winning child custody and women who have killed their children once being awarded custody. While horrible things to look at and read about, it only proves the system isn't perfect. Doesn't have anything to do with my in game morals. Or my morals out of it. All it tells me is that I need to stop replying to internet strawman arguments.

Also, I've explained what I mean by 'deserve' several times, now.

Gonna stick to the game, now, and any battered wife arguments can be sent to me via pm.

Modifié par Harid, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[ejoslin]

Ghetto was about the casteless life, not about abused women. The conversation evolved from there. And no one said YOU said that, just that it was said that the dwarf casteless deserve whatever abuse they get.



And I was saying two separate things, which I guess gets confusing. Casteless dwarves are very much stuck in many ways, but with even fewer options, than the ghetto. And on the battered women front, basically that no one deserves to be assaulted.



Probably clear as mud.

[ejoslin]

Harid wrote...

Failure to Protect laws don't seem to have a high incidence of conviction, no offense, so I am confused as to how you are bringing this up as some huge kind of issue.

I mean, I can also bring up links of the high incidence of mothers winning child custody and women who have killed their children once being awarded custody. While horrible things to look at and read about, it only proves the system isn't perfect. Doesn't have anything to do with my in game morals. Or my morals out of it. All it tells me is that I need to stop replying to internet strawman arguments.

Gonna stick to the game, now, and any battered wife arguments can be sent to me via pm.

*sigh* Spend some time with battered women.  That's all I can say.  I'm done arguing this.  Once you meet people this happens to, you'll have a better understanding.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ghetto was about the casteless life, not about abused women. The conversation evolved from there. And no one said YOU said that, just that it was said that the dwarf casteless deserve whatever abuse they get.

And I was saying two separate things, which I guess gets confusing. Casteless dwarves are very much stuck in many ways, but with even fewer options, than the ghetto. And on the battered women front, basically that no one deserves to be assaulted.

Probably clear as mud.

Then why quote me and say that? '

...You're right your post is about as clear as mud.

Anyways never said they deserved it. But I can't feel sorry for them when they do have a way out. It may not be desirable but its a way out. Them choosing not to take it is on them.

That doesn't mean I feel they deserve it. Just I can't feel sorry for it happening when they have ways out.

Edit: This is why I can't help but persuade the female dwarf to go to the surface with her son.

That said I'm the type of person who will steal anything someone leaves lying around and very much a hedonist so...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

But I can't feel sorry for them when they
do have a way out. It may not be desirable but its a way out. Them
choosing not to take it is on them.

My ****ing god, this.

As for working with battered wives, I have, actually, and it's helped to shape my outlook.

Nobody deserves or wants another's pity. People, ultimately should aim to learn self reliance.

Modifié par Harid, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[ddv.rsa]

There is one other comment:

"Bhelen threatened to kill my sons if I don't support him." (orz340_h_desh_amb_f_2.dlg)

As for the casteless I disagree with Harid. One can't really blame them for staying in dust town. It's easy to say "just go to surface", but as has been pointed out already consider how little they know and how suspicious dwarves in general are about the surface.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:47 .

[Harid]

ddv.rsa wrote...

There is one other comment:

"Bhelen threatened to kill my sons if I don't support him." (orz340_h_desh_amb_f_2.dlg)

As for the casteless I disagree with Harid. One can't really blame them for staying in dust town. It's easy to say "just go to surface", but as has been pointed out already consider how little they know and how suspicious dwarves in general are about the surface.

BOOM.

As for your second point, you are chosing between the unknown. . .and a feces reuben.

I would choose the unknown 1000 times first.

Modifié par Harid, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[ejoslin]

Harid wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But I can't feel sorry for them when they
do have a way out. It may not be desirable but its a way out. Them
choosing not to take it is on them.

My ****ing god, this.

As for working with battered wives, I have, actually, and it's helped to shape my outlook.

Nobody deserves or wants another's pity. People, ultimately should aim to learn self reliance.

Ummmm, I agree with this?  But it's not quite as simple as you think it is.  And for some it's easier than for others.

[ejoslin]

Oooh, ok, didn't go through the deshyrs. One Harrowmont supporter DOES say that Bhelen threatened to kill her sons if she didn't support him.  That is still not the same as him actually killing children.  But yes, that said.  Going through the rest of the deshyrs now!

Edit: Ahahahaha, another Harrowmont supporter says his wife is being held hostage.  Bhelen is not a nice guy

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:53 .