294 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

That is such a pre-teen entertainment standard that I'm ashamed to even here it still bandied about. Mass Effect doesn't have a PG-13 rating: it's baseline is hard choices and deep, ethically confused situations and characters. And since Mass Effect didn't even keep that standard in, well, Mass Effect and then again in its sequel, Mass Effect 2, arguing it must be applied in Mass Effect 3 when it was never applied at all is, well....

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

bad guys should clearly bad and we don't like them and the good guys should clearly be the good ones that we can support, it's an old formula but it's still suprisingly powerfull.

But it's a cliche!

And people dig "morally gray areas' too.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 novembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Fixers0]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

bad guys should clearly bad and we don't like them and the good guys should clearly be the good ones that we can support, it's an old formula but it's still suprisingly powerfull.

But it's a cliche!

And people dig "morally gray areas' too.

But at least it's a simple and working one, you see the interrogations theory is so hugly complicted and full of **** that doesn't make any sense, the last star trek film is a perfect example it has a villain nobody likes and an epic adventure full of fast paced action, that's also why i prefer the orignal star wars trilogy above the prequals.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

bad guys should clearly bad and we don't like them and the good guys should clearly be the good ones that we can support, it's an old formula but it's still suprisingly powerfull.

But it's a cliche!

And people dig "morally gray areas' too.

But at least it's a simple and working one, you see the interrogations theory is so hugly complicted and full of **** that doesn't make any sense, the last star trek film is a perfect example it has a villain nobody likes and an epic adventure full of fast paced action, that's also why i prefer the orignal star wars trilogy above the prequals.

Just a quick note with regards your last comment in response to my reply. My username is spelt wrong, but look up 'A Knight's Tale' (the movie) and you'll get the message

As for this and your previous post, excuse me, but it isn't 'hugely complicated' its plain as day as to where the story is likely to head.

It's like season 7 opener of 24 (hopefully ME3 won't be as bad as season 7) where Jack Bauer is on trial for doing what he does to save his country from terrorists.

To use one of the films you've mentioned, where is Han Solo at the start of Ep6? In carbonite/captivity.

So to say Shep being in such a situation is stupid, huh? what?

Before you argue that 'Luke' was the protagonist, I could easily argue that C3P0 and R2D2 were seeing as they were who you saw first but also could say it was an ensemble of protagonists OR take the George Lucas approach and say that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader was and the OT was all about his redemption.

Also the fact you find the interrogation/trial thing as complicated and full of stuff that don't make sense, am sorry but considering both me and Dean have tried to point out the most obvious reasons why it DOES make sense has me wondering if you truly can comprehend what is happening in the ME Universe.

My previous post did answer your other comments about 'crimes' namely it ain't what Shepard did, it's just what stuff he is being accused of.

BOTH councils want Shepard gone, they see Shep as a threat to their somewhat rocky but stable rule. As some other people have stated in the past, they probably are aware of the Reapers but don't want to acknowledge it for all the panic it would cause. To them Shepard is a doomsayer who is going to cause said panic if he ain't shut up. Hence why between ME and ME2 he was punted off to the outer systems to look for Geth having the Council dismiss the claims of the Reapers, some Alliance people thought Shep should've been arrested but Council saw this as best way. He gets killed, brought back to life by a group whom the original council label as a nemesis and threaten Shepard with arrest again but let him go on basis he once again gets lots to the outer systems never to return.

So... do you REALLY think that after ME2 they are going to welcome him back with open arms? If you expect that, you really are deluded.

Shepard maybe a big damn hero, but not everyone sees that, some see him as a villain. Which part of that sentence do you not understand?

[Fixers0]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

bad guys should clearly bad and we don't like them and the good guys should clearly be the good ones that we can support, it's an old formula but it's still suprisingly powerfull.

But it's a cliche!

And people dig "morally gray areas' too.

But at least it's a simple and working one, you see the interrogations theory is so hugly complicted and full of **** that doesn't make any sense, the last star trek film is a perfect example it has a villain nobody likes and an epic adventure full of fast paced action, that's also why i prefer the orignal star wars trilogy above the prequals.

Just a quick note with regards your last comment in response to my reply. My username is spelt wrong, but look up 'A Knight's Tale' (the movie) and you'll get the message

As for this and your previous post, excuse me, but it isn't 'hugely complicated' its plain as day as to where the story is likely to head.

Surely in a game that opens with an interrogation of the protagonist from which you thought he had done a pretty good job in the previous game let's most gamers scratch their head, Wheres Hacket? Or Anderson? I Saved the Citadel, Why i am i sitting here? Oh yes it's a conspiracy?

It's like season 7 opener of 24 (hopefully ME3 won't be as bad as season 7) where Jack Bauer is on trial for doing what he does to save his country from terrorists.

As is said it works better in series and Movies, if i where jack Bauer i would never do something agains the law, Unless the script forces me to doe so.

To use one of the films you've mentioned, where is Han Solo at the start of Ep6? In carbonite/captivity.

So to say Shep being in such a situation is stupid, huh? what?

Before you argue that 'Luke' was the protagonist, I could easily argue that C3P0 and R2D2 were seeing as they were who you saw first but also could say it was an ensemble of protagonists OR take the George Lucas approach and say that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader was and the OT was all about his redemption.

I never said reffered star wars  ep6 i just said that they worked better then the prequals. I was reffering to Star trek 2009 , you know the reboot of star trek.

Also the fact you find the interrogation/trial thing as complicated and full of stuff that don't make sense, am sorry but considering both me and Dean have tried to point out the most obvious reasons why it DOES make sense has me wondering if you truly can comprehend what is happening in the ME Universe.

It is not complicated by itself but in the way it connects to the plot, just give us a plot to stop the reapers not another change of loyalty. 

My previous post did answer your other comments about 'crimes' namely it ain't what Shepard did, it's just what stuff he is being accused of.

That's right but i never questioned that, and if i did, sorry for the inconvenience.

BOTH councils want Shepard gone, they see Shep as a threat to their somewhat rocky but stable rule. As some other people have stated in the past, they probably are aware of the Reapers but don't want to acknowledge it for all the panic it would cause. To them Shepard is a doomsayer who is going to cause said panic if he ain't shut up. Hence why between ME and ME2 he was punted off to the outer systems to look for Geth having the Council dismiss the claims of the Reapers, some Alliance people thought Shep should've been arrested but Council saw this as best way. He gets killed, brought back to life by a group whom the original council label as a nemesis and threaten Shepard with arrest again but let him go on basis he once again gets lots to the outer systems never to return.

They had all the time want in me2 they could have rigged his shuttle or ship they could have sent a hit squad etc,
But exactly at the start of ME3 they decided to capture Shepard so that they can give us another dramatic opening plot device.

So... do you REALLY think that after ME2 they are going to welcome him back with open arms? If you expect that, you really are deluded.

I never said that the council is happy with him, be he remains OUR hero, try to think more from the postion of the players rather then from inside the game that's up to the devs.

Shepard maybe a big damn hero, but not everyone sees that, some see him as a villain. Which part of that sentence do you not understand?

The part where you say that not everybody sees him as a hero, neither you or me can decide about that. where are just gamers.

Modifié par Fixers0, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Where is Hackett? Where is Anderson?



Remember that comment I made about someone wanting to get Shepard arrested, Hackett stopped that. Hackett is an Admiral which means there is most likely going to be someone above him. Which means someone could go above Hackett and Hackett is suddenly an Admiral no more and is trimming the rose bushes so to speak. Same applies to Anderson even if he is the councillor, also the trial would most likely 'be behind closed doors' for the obvious fact the council ain't going to want the public to hear Shepard going on about the Reapers.



As for comment about Jack, it doesn't matter if your Paragon or not. Case in point, the Rachni, whether you choose to set the Queen free or not, the Council berates you either way. Your damned if you did kill her, your damned if you didn't. On the killing side, your berated for making a species extinct without any higher power authorising it and if you let her go your berated for letting a species who caused so much trouble in the past to remain alive and free. So even if he is YOUR hero, HE is still going to get the book thrown at him whether he did good things or not. Also you did mention Ep6 when you said you preferred the OT to the PT, yes I know you mentioned Star Trek too, but lets use that as well... was my eyes deceiving me near the start of the film when Kirk was on trial for when he cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test? and before you respond with the 'movies/tv' thing again and how if you were Kirk you wouldn't have cheated, that point is irrelevant in this context. Because the context the rest of us are referring to is how it would make for compelling story setting considering all that has been laid out in front of us.



Like I said earlier, Shep is damned if he was paragon and damned if he was renegade. The ME universe isn't completely black and white hasn't been in any of the previous 2 games and doubtful it will be in the last one. You are right that we can't decide if people see him as a hero or not, but then again that is my point, we can see that some people don't. The Devs HAVE shown us that. It is just you who seems to believe that they haven't and so IF the prediction about Shepard being interrogated/on trial does come true you are going to be scratching your head because you failed to notice the obvious signs pointing towards it.



None of us expecting the interrogation/trial idea are expecting there to be absolute zero defence of Shepard if given the chance, but am quite sure if it comes to it, the Council/Alliance or whomever will do their best to make sure it is slim to none. They've tried kicking Shep off to the far reaches of the galaxy twice, both times it hasn't worked, only answer is to lock Shep away.



Think of it this way, if Khalisah al-Jilaini can rip into Paragon Shep, imagine what a shark prosecuting attorney could do?



Actually speaking of everyones favourite reporter, think of it this way, at least your holier than thou shepard isn't going to get as royally screwed as a Renegade Shep possibly will do.



People wanted to see the affects our choices made, what a better way than a trial to lay into all those things.



I got to admit the whole idea of this to me is exciting, wondering what both paragon and renegade things could be used against Shepard and how we will be able to respond to it.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
*snip*

Quite possibly my favorite post in the thread and a very well-done summary of the reason behind this "speculation".

[Fixers0]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Where is Hackett? Where is Anderson?

Remember that comment I made about someone wanting to get Shepard arrested, Hackett stopped that. Hackett is an Admiral which means there is most likely going to be someone above him. Which means someone could go above Hackett and Hackett is suddenly an Admiral no more and is trimming the rose bushes so to speak. Same applies to Anderson even if he is the councillor, also the trial would most likely 'be behind closed doors' for the obvious fact the council ain't going to want the public to hear Shepard going on about the Reapers.

As for comment about Jack, it doesn't matter if your Paragon or not. Case in point, the Rachni, whether you choose to set the Queen free or not, the Council berates you either way. Your damned if you did kill her, your damned if you didn't. On the killing side, your berated for making a species extinct without any higher power authorising it and if you let her go your berated for letting a species who caused so much trouble in the past to remain alive and free. So even if he is YOUR hero, HE is still going to get the book thrown at him whether he did good things or not. Also you did mention Ep6 when you said you preferred the OT to the PT, yes I know you mentioned Star Trek too, but lets use that as well... was my eyes deceiving me near the start of the film when Kirk was on trial for when he cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test? and before you respond with the 'movies/tv' thing again and how if you were Kirk you wouldn't have cheated, that point is irrelevant in this context. Because the context the rest of us are referring to is how it would make for compelling story setting considering all that has been laid out in front of us.

Like I said earlier, Shep is damned if he was paragon and damned if he was renegade. The ME universe isn't completely black and white hasn't been in any of the previous 2 games and doubtful it will be in the last one. You are right that we can't decide if people see him as a hero or not, but then again that is my point, we can see that some people don't. The Devs HAVE shown us that. It is just you who seems to believe that they haven't and so IF the prediction about Shepard being interrogated/on trial does come true you are going to be scratching your head because you failed to notice the obvious signs pointing towards it.

None of us expecting the interrogation/trial idea are expecting there to be absolute zero defence of Shepard if given the chance, but am quite sure if it comes to it, the Council/Alliance or whomever will do their best to make sure it is slim to none. They've tried kicking Shep off to the far reaches of the galaxy twice, both times it hasn't worked, only answer is to lock Shep away.

Think of it this way, if Khalisah al-Jilaini can rip into Paragon Shep, imagine what a shark prosecuting attorney could do?

Actually speaking of everyones favourite reporter, think of it this way, at least your holier than thou shepard isn't going to get as royally screwed as a Renegade Shep possibly will do.

People wanted to see the affects our choices made, what a better way than a trial to lay into all those things.

I got to admit the whole idea of this to me is exciting, wondering what both paragon and renegade things could be used against Shepard and how we will be able to respond to it.

Hey, i have to agree you, you're right about many the thing, my whole problem with this theory howerver is that atleast i don't want Shepard (Our hero) to be an escaped criminal, i just feels wrong to play as such person as i mentiond earlier the players need to project themself into the scene, and for  someone like me who always respects order and authority come off betrayed.

But then again it's just a plan of council, even though i don't like conspiracy plot's or theory's i probably buy it since i hate to see my Shepard being a criminal.

I think this post sums up what i was thinking whole the time. 

Modifié par Fixers0, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Fixers0 wrote...

Hey, i have to agree you, you're right about many the thing, my whole problem with this theory howerver is that atleast i don't want Shepard (Our hero) to be an escaped criminal, i just feels wrong to play as such person as i mentiond earlier the players need to project themself into the scene, and for  someone like me who always respects order and authorityc come off betrayed.

But then again it's just a plan of council, even though i don't like conspiracy plot's or theory's i probably buy it since i hate to see my Shepard being a criminal.

I think this post sums up what i was thinking whole the time. 

I hate to say, but this is really nothing short of a personal feeling and bias. Don't worry; I do feel the same myself. I don't think I would like to see my Shepard surrounded by a bunch of muscular figures torturing and/or interrogating her and calling her a criminal and a traitor, but that's completely irrelevant; sometimes we just have to face the facts. A lot of what we've seen seems to point to a trial taking place at some point. And don't forget what we've remarked about an interrogation working wonderfully well with the import feature.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Fixers0]

I suppose you're right at some point. but some of the things i mentiond earlier, People Really need to be connected to the plot if you wish them to feel tension and have interest in the story, having your protagonist going into jail at the start of a game, just when they thougt they had a good job on saving the galaxy, at this point many players don't understand or accept what happend to their protagonist, the result will be that the cuts the connection to the players as the can no longer project themself onto Shepard.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'm sure ME3 will be epic enough to compensate for that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shepard's already a criminal regardless. Committed a capital offense in ME1, and a whole laundry list of crimes in ME2 ranging from nuking a garden world to getting into firefights on the Citadel.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

As Fiery said, I too am sure ME3 will be epic enough to compensate and considering how well Shepard has defended him/herself thus far when questioned whether Paragon OR Renegade (as much as I prefer renegade Shep most of the time, I prefered Paragon Sheps speech just before the start of the suicide mission... "NOT... ONE... MORE") and basically just spoken in general (other than that silly bit when destroying the base) I am sure you'll get the chance to remain connected to Shepard.



Put it this way, as said in the 'teaser analysis' topic, I don't think that is anything to do with ME3. I think the first ME3 teaser trailer will be a news report by Emily Wong talking of some high ranking Spectre Agent who is on trial and she'll run through a list of 'crimes' the council has listed against the person and at the end she'll state it's Commander Shepard. It'll basically be the ME3 equivalent of the ME2 teaser in that she only mentions the name at the end and you'll see a mugshot of Sheploo in the top right of the screen.



You have to remember as Dean has stated, to the council, your already a 'terrorist'. Hell, if your a sole survivor the alliance in attempt to distance themselves from Cerberus could start laying claims that you have been with Cerberus all along even as far as back then and you orchestrated the deaths of your other squadmates.



*suddenly has a vision in his head*

In 2186 the first human spectre and his crack squad was sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit, this group managed to escape from prison and has been on the run from the Alliance and the Council since, if you have a Reaper problem and if no one will help and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... Shepard's Team



...Well... ME2 was billed as 'The Dirty Dozen'

[Destroy Raiden_]

I hope if the trial is implemented that its not used once and then never revisited like your death was. I think even if they don't send you to prison that you'll have a hard time with some governments like for instance I can see a hell of a storm with the Turians you show up on Palvin and say, " Help me fight the Reapers," They'd be like, " You're a criminal." You'd have to in actions show them thats not the case its not like criminals or excons can't redeem themselves a good example of this is Mandela he went to prison for several years came out and became president of his African country he was a criminal and proved himself through actions to be a redeeming person weather he really did those things or not he proved he was no longer the man that was tried and sentenced to prison. Shep I figure thoughout 3 will constantly having this haunt him and prove to those who where not strong believers or have had their opinions turned around about him that he is acting w/in the galaxies interest and the trial was a sham.

I really think that'd be dasterdly fun to have the prosocution say for sole survivors Sheps where working with Cerberus all along how else could he/she have made it out alive? And then its a Shep vs their forged evidence thing.

What about the Shep being hunted down as a bridge DLC for the game then when 3 starts we know whats happened to get shep to the trial? This way BW can give both important segments the timing and pacing they'll need to pull this off perfectly.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 25 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

I must confess, when I was making that thread, its title became sort of homage to the movie Pitch Black. In it two characters introduce themselves to one another:

"Perris P. Anglevey, antiquities dealer, entrepreneur", says one.
"Richard B. Riddick, escaped convict, murderer", says another.

So I kinda though it might be swell if Shepard introduced himself to somebody in the middle of ME3:

"Commander Shepard, escaped convict, savior of the Galaxy."

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 novembre 2010 - 11:25 .

[Knoll Argonar]

Nah, a report to the Council/Alliance would be the best. Trial? Nah.

[Lvl20DM]

A trial or interrogation really would be a great way to summarize events from the first 2 games. So would an interview with a reporter.



I could see an opening where Shep is exploring a prothean ruin or something (this would be the tutorial), and as he returns to the Normandy an Alliance/Council fleet is waiting to seize the vessel and haul Shep and his crew in.

[Kamagawa]

Don't know if it has been said (too lazy to read all posts right now)

Maby have a ceremony type deal. The squad mates speak about shep and you choose what they say (based on the major ME1&2 choices).

The scene must be must make you unsure on what type of ceremony it is. Each squadmate only has a few lines to say, depending on how long they were with you and wether or not they got killed. Eventually, Joker starts narrating what happened in between ME3:LotSB and ME3. Then you start controlling shep. Then, at the end, if shep dies, it ends up being his funeral. If he lives, it is an award ceremony. It could also be a trial in which all squad members are interregated. It would make for an interesting game dynamic as you could already be dead.



Maby the mood of the comments of the ME3 storyline change as you progress. Allowing you a hint as to what your consequences may be.

[Caael]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

By this point, you all must have heard of the proposed trial/imprisonment theory which essentially states that Shepard will be tracked down and taken into custody by Alliance and/or Council personnel for the length of the gap separating ME2 and ME3*. Now that I think about it: wouldn't it be real cool if ME3 started with some kind of interrogation (whether it be as part of the trial -- should it ever actually happen -- or otherwise)?

Imagine, a scene where Shepard is being interrogated. I personally think this would work wonders; especially for an imported Shepard (even more especially for one who also went through ME1). This would be an opportunity to go over the majority of your past decisions from the moment you touched ME1 until the moment you were completely done with ME2 with that Shepard. It would add meaning to the universe and more character to your Shepard. It would also be a good way of "welcoming" any new comers since it covers the past, but it would obviously play out differently if it's not an import (in a way such that it introduces and possibly explains what has happened rather than going over it).

Discuss, I guess. I know I would totally love that.

* There are many reasons justifying this. Look here.

UPDATE:  Zulu_DFA has started a poll on this, where you can vote and let us know whether or not you like this idea.

It would work quite well for those who import as well, providing multiple 'Schroedinger's question' scenarios in order to set up the game as they see fit. Also would mean that you could change choices in previous games without having to play through them all again to get all possible alternate endings. 

Modifié par Caael, 12 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Vaenier]

I am picturing Black Ops campaign as the opening mission. you are strapped down in a chair, bunch of monitors all around, you been drugged, the shadowy figure in the window is asking question through a voice distorter. no idea if it is friend or foe. in the end it turns out to be hacket in the flesh and he welcomes you back.

I am liking this...