294 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

There's no way a few space cops could arrest Shepard.

If Shepard is meant to go to jail, she will, regardless of the how of it.

Plus his ties with TIM and the new shadow broker make's him virtually Untouchable.

Same as above.

This.

And I repeat: it may be TIM, Hackett, Udina and/or Anderson themselves who will initiate (secretly, of course) the apprehension, interrogation and imprisonment of Shepard. They also can set up a perfect trap (maybe even using the VS), which would allow to capture Shepard without a single shot fired.

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, but the system also creates loop hole for old players who try to find perfect situations as metagaming or powerplaying. Oh , damm I did wrong choise in my last gameplay, there and there, no problem I fix it with the Interrogation system in beging of ME3. What good of making choises is, if we can change them to be anything. We player ask all the time from developers, give our choises more meaning, this interrogation system just takes hole meaning of choises away, because you can change your choises to anything. You can create perfect gameplay. Hole system lowers meaning of choises done in past and doesn't allow us to make mistakes what we can't fix easyly.

Of course it shouldn't be meant to "fix" the Big Choices in an imported game. It should be about Shepard's explaining the motives behind them, like:

Interrogator: You gave the Collector Base to the Cerberus!

Shepard: Too bad. You guys were not around at the moment! /  The Reapers are coming and it is a chance to learn more about them. / You're wasting your time, I ain't answering you,  ****, so can I please have another jolt of that... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaah!!!

Fixers0 wrote...
Maby so but, the problem  Shepard's Death and resurection is that it had zero importance to the rest of story and only seems to exit within the first ten minuts of the game, after we gain control of the Normandy SR2 it's seems like nothing happend at all, and that we just start working for cerberus,

If you make a dramatic opening to game or a movie then make it important to the main plot (not that mass effect 2 has one) , letting Shepard die and then ressurect him five minutes later is a bad idea, especialy if it doesn't have any importance to the main storylne.

I have my own gripes with the ME2 plot. But unlike the "crew abduction", the "death&resurrection" was not bad of itself as a plot device. It was just poorly explained and reflected in the game. The problem here is not "what", it is "how". So will it be with the "interrogation" device. It's a perfect openning plot twist for the next game, but it can be screwed up, just like any other plot device, regardless how good is the idea behind it.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
Maby so but, the problem  Shepard's Death and resurection is that it had zero importance to the rest of story and only seems to exit within the first ten minuts of the game, after we gain control of the Normandy SR2 it's seems like nothing happend at all, and that we just start working for cerberus,

If you make a dramatic opening to game or a movie then make it important to the main plot (not that mass effect 2 has one) , letting Shepard die and then ressurect him five minutes later is a bad idea, especialy if it doesn't have any importance to the main storylne.

I have my own gripes with the ME2 plot. But unlike the "crew abduction", the "death&resurrection" was not bad of itself as a plot device. It was just poorly explained and reflected in the game. The problem here is not "what", it is "how". So will it be with the "interrogation" device. It's a perfect openning plot twist for the next game, but it can be screwed up, just like any other plot device, regardless how good is the idea behind it.

I second this.

The resurrection device isn't a bad idea in and of itself; it was only poorly explained and quickly "expired" throughout the rest of the adventure. So it's not the idea, but how it was used and executed. The same could be said of the whole imprisonment thing.

gamer790 wrote...

The idea of ME3 starting with an interigation is certainly be interesting, but then I also thought the idea of Shepard dieing and being brought back to life and then haveing to answer various questions about events in the past game sounded like an intriguing way to start off ME2 and we all saw how magnificently that turned out. I am not insinuating that I think BIOWARE would automattically screw this idea up if they did go with it, but after ME2 I'm going to try to not let my hopes get to high up.

Keep in mind that ME3 is going to be the last chapter of the ongoing story. If what BioWare has said is anything to go by, the consequences will be much more significant this time around.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 12 novembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

There's no way a few space cops could arrest Shepard.

If Shepard is meant to go to jail, she will, regardless of the how of it.

Plus his ties with TIM and the new shadow broker make's him virtually Untouchable.

Same as above.

Which leads us straight into the land of the contrived, and of the cutscene railroading that makes me want to burn the disk for too many video games. 

Bioware has shown us that they can engage in some excellent writing and storytelling for a video game company.  Including this "prisoner" nonsense in ME3 would be a major letdown from their overall standard.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 12 novembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And I repeat: it may be TIM, Hackett, Udina and/or Anderson themselves who will initiate (secretly, of course) the apprehension, interrogation and imprisonment of Shepard. They also can set up a perfect trap (maybe even using the VS), which would allow to capture Shepard without a single shot fired.

After Horizon, there's no way any of my Sheps would run off to talk to the VS alone, with no backup and no escape plan. 

Of course, Bioware could put it into an opening cutscene, take all (or almost all) control away from the player, and engage in exactly the kind of cheap railroading that I'm completely against, so that the player has no way to avoid what smells exactly like a trap. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Bioware has shown us that they can engage in some excellent writing and storytelling for a video game company. Including this "prisoner" nonsense in ME3 would be a major letdown from their overall standard.

Nothing can surpass the "crew abduction" sequence in the realm of plot holes, so even a complete screw-up with the "interrogation" twist won't constitute a "major letdown" from that standard.

[Killjoy Cutter]

ME2 was a bit of a slip in general, which is why I said "overall".

[Fixers0]

Of course the death and Resurrection of Shepard's is not necessarily a bad thing,  You're right Zulu about that and as you said if it would be executed better it might work, but at this moment the Dead & Resurrection plot is useless to what plot there is,

Going back to the the Interrogation, i might work if it is executed well though that doesn't change the fact that it is a cliche, you should be very carefull with epic intro's, Mass Effect 3 i Suposed to be the darkest game in the Mass effect series, having the game start with an interogation followed by a rough prison break completly blows away the Athmosphere  that the first Mass effect manneges to create, it will let the people think that this is just another RPG shooter.

In Mass effect 1, a simple routine mission that goes wrong was an exelent opening to the series because it created a sense of mysterie, Now making just a small scene before sheppard get's captuterd make it a lot better as like:  

1. Mysterie Scene: something like the Star wars VI, the enemy's are preparing another plan.
2. Shepard mission: Shepard goes on a unclear mission (prothean ruin) and get's captured(it's a trap)  
3. The Interrogation scene: Speaks for itself.

[knightnblu]

I have long held that the Alliance would want to question Shep about the loss of the Normandy SR1, two years AWOL, and now working with Cerberus who is an avowed enemy of the Council and the Alliance. If I were the senior brass at the Alliance I would want some answers and Councilor Anderson would not be able to hold me off for long. Therefore an interrogation or hearing would be an appropriate way to begin ME3.



Additionally, choices mad in ME2 would have consequences in ME3 such as did you upload the Cerberus data to the Alliance, keep it, or turn it over to Cerberus. Ditto for Toombs. While Shep's specter status would excuse a lot, if you are still a specter that is, there are many questions that need answers for your former superior's peace of mind. Plus, if Ashley were your ME LI, that would be an opportune time for reconciliation or ending the relationship. Just my .02 on the issue.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And I repeat: it may be TIM, Hackett, Udina and/or Anderson themselves who will initiate (secretly, of course) the apprehension, interrogation and imprisonment of Shepard. They also can set up a perfect trap (maybe even using the VS), which would allow to capture Shepard without a single shot fired.

After Horizon, there's no way any of my Sheps would run off to talk to the VS alone, with no backup and no escape plan. 

Of course, Bioware could put it into an opening cutscene, take all (or almost all) control away from the player, and engage in exactly the kind of cheap railroading that I'm completely against, so that the player has no way to avoid what smells exactly like a trap. 

But would you come if Anderson called you to a meeting? If Hackett?

Probably. Or at least, you Shepard would. We have a lot of influence over Shepard, but there are things we wouldn't do that Shepard would.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 novembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And I repeat: it may be TIM, Hackett, Udina and/or Anderson themselves who will initiate (secretly, of course) the apprehension, interrogation and imprisonment of Shepard. They also can set up a perfect trap (maybe even using the VS), which would allow to capture Shepard without a single shot fired.

After Horizon, there's no way any of my Sheps would run off to talk to the VS alone, with no backup and no escape plan. 

Of course, Bioware could put it into an opening cutscene, take all (or almost all) control away from the player, and engage in exactly the kind of cheap railroading that I'm completely against, so that the player has no way to avoid what smells exactly like a trap. 

But would you come if Anderson called you to a meeting? If Hackett?

Probably. Or at least, you Shepard would. We have a lot of influence over Shepard, but there are things we wouldn't do that Shepard would.

Which is where we get to the question of whether the ME1 and ME2 are RPGs, or "direct-your-own-movie" games.  Every time they take control of Shep away from the player, they're making the game into something other than an RPG.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Lumikki wrote...
Yeah, but the system also creates loop hole for old players who try to find perfect situations as metagaming or powerplaying. Oh , damm I did wrong choise in my last gameplay, there and there, no problem I fix it with the Interrogation system in beging of ME3. What good of making choises is, if we can change them to be anything. We player ask all the time from developers, give our choises more meaning, this interrogation system just takes hole meaning of choises away, because you can change your choises to anything. You can create perfect gameplay. Hole system lowers meaning of choises done in past and doesn't allow us to make mistakes what we can't fix easyly.

That's why it would be set up differently then Miranda's interview she asked who did you elect and you got to pick for instance at the end of 1 I said Anderson but in 2 I could've changed that to Udina we wouldn't ask the player did you kill the Queen if you imported a save the game knows you killed her. They'd just ask you to defend yourself to the jury why did you kill her. If you spare the Queen the game knows you spared her they ask you to defend yourself as to why you saved her. They want to know your motives your mindset at the time you committed these acts No changing what you did occurs the lawyers want you to justify to them why you thought doing A was acting in the best interest of the galaxy. Trials exist to uncover a criminals means, motives, mindset, and personal gain from the situation these are what we'd be looking for players to also explain during the trial.

[Destroy Raiden_]

[/quote]

I don't think Bioware will have shep put in Jail just to bust him down to Level 1. The whole prison thing just sounds like a bad plot device that isn't needed in anyway.



There's no way a few space cops could arrest Shepard.



Plus his ties with TIM and the new shadow broker make's him virtually Untouchable.[/quote]



I divorced TIM





Also a good point was brought up once shep died in 2 very littler reference or difficulty resulted from the action I also petition for 3 if the trial theory is adopted that this also is brought up more in 3 and can make life and dealings with both main plot and npcs difficult for instance Omega would have no problems w/ Shep showing his/her face after escaping prison but Citadel would and shops may not work with you until you've proven you aren't what they say I image the only shop on citadel willing to work with you would be ones you endorsed or that one Salarian who is your fan if no endorsement took place (like me) then these shops won't work with you unless its ofcouse your Salarian fan.

[Jebel Krong]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

There's no way a few space cops could arrest Shepard.

If Shepard is meant to go to jail, she will, regardless of the how of it.

Plus his ties with TIM and the new shadow broker make's him virtually Untouchable.

Same as above.

Which leads us straight into the land of the contrived, and of the cutscene railroading that makes me want to burn the disk for too many video games. 

Bioware has shown us that they can engage in some excellent writing and storytelling for a video game company.  Including this "prisoner" nonsense in ME3 would be a major letdown from their overall standard.

Which is why it'll never happen and is one of the worst "fan-suggestions" i've ever read. Then there's the small matter of optionally being a spectre still anyway - the alliance/whomever is going to, what, just kidnap and interrogate a council-sanctioned operative (THE best spectre at that)?

Given how me2 finished, with you in just about the most powerful non-reaper ship out there and a squad of loyal badasses in-board, anyone would be foolish to try anyway.

[CARL_DF90]

When you put it that way, you do have a valid point. The interrogation thing is a bad idea, but I'm sure Bioware has shot down that idea and have something cooking anyway.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Bare in mind we also have to try to work with BW has given us ME and ME2 are very different feeling games most people really liked the story and pace of 1 and where it was going then the blip known as 2 showed up the trial if done right might be able to link 3 more closely with the good story from 1 and veer away from the anomaly of 2.

[oldag07]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

There's no way a few space cops could arrest Shepard.

If Shepard is meant to go to jail, she will, regardless of the how of it.

Plus his ties with TIM and the new shadow broker make's him virtually Untouchable.

Same as above.

Which leads us straight into the land of the contrived, and of the cutscene railroading that makes me want to burn the disk for too many video games. 

Bioware has shown us that they can engage in some excellent writing and storytelling for a video game company.  Including this "prisoner" nonsense in ME3 would be a major letdown from their overall standard.

Which is why it'll never happen and is one of the worst "fan-suggestions" i've ever read. Then there's the small matter of optionally being a spectre still anyway - the alliance/whomever is going to, what, just kidnap and interrogate a council-sanctioned operative (THE best spectre at that)?

Given how me2 finished, with you in just about the most powerful non-reaper ship out there and a squad of loyal badasses in-board, anyone would be foolish to try anyway.

The Paragon choice of ditching Cerebus could still easily lead to Shepard's imprisonment by the Alliance/ Council.  TIM mad at shepard could leak plenty of trash about Shepard to the Council/Alliance, and they would have no choice but to arrest him.  As for the Renegage choice, well, duh, he is working for Cerebus, an enemy of the council. 

As for the "bad ass team" in Mass Effect 2, well techincally any one except for Joker, could have been killed on the suicide mission.  The producers of Mass Effect 3 aren't going to put a lot of plot development on a characters that might have been killed in the original game.  Pretty much the only teammates we can expect from the original game and mass effect 2 to have any major part are the Virmire Survivor, and Liara.  Other than that, we should expect new teammates. . .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Even if you were right, which you are not, that would still leave us with the contrived "this could only happen in a cutscene" issue, and "let's take control away from the player in order to tell our story" issue, of actually having someone manage to capture Shepherd.

[Dean_the_Young]

'It only happens in a cutscene' applies to, like, half the game.

Like Shepard jumping onto the Normandy. Or Jack's biotic powers.Or Samara flying. Or Thane using kungfu.

Shepard's not invincible, nor has he/she ever had full availability of choices to do anything the player wants.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 novembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'It only happens in a cutscene' applies to, like, half the game.

Like Shepard jumping onto the Normandy. Or Jack's biotic powers.Or Samara flying. Or Thane using kungfu.

Shepard's not invincible, nor has he/she ever had full availability of choices to do anything the player wants.

The game could do without most of the other "cutscene only" moments as well.   It's like there are two different universes, two parallel stories, going on:  the one in game-play, and the other one we're shown in the cutscenes and cinematics.

[Dean_the_Young]

Just like the previous two games.

Pretty old news, that.

It's not even like it's impossible to set up a impossible-to-win scenario in the first place.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 novembre 2010 - 10:36 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Just like the previous two games.

Pretty old news, that.

It's one of the things that video game designers should be trying to avoid like the plague -- showing two different worlds, one for gameplay and one for cutscenes, often contradictory, is one of the most immersion-breaking aspects of video games.  It falls squarely into the catagory of "hanging by the neck until dead" (see my sig).

[Dean_the_Young]

Utter difference of opinion.



Until gameplay can fully match intent, there's no reason to limit the story of a universe to the gameplay mechanics it can be told in.

[M8DMAN]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

When you put it that way, you do have a valid point. The interrogation thing is a bad idea, but I'm sure Bioware has shot down that idea and have something cooking anyway.

I don't think Bioware will go with the prison route. It's still a good theory but I think Bioware has bigger plans for the ME3 opening.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 15 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .