393 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Darkhour wrote..

Since when is a species defined by rare cases of genetic deformity?

?

Sten is the genetic deforminity. Horns are the default, not the abnormality.

Though as it turns out, apparently the lack of horns are revered.

don't only ignore it. I dismiss it. None of that is normal.  If it was normal you wouldn't be claimng they are missiong anything.  No one is going to tell me, "You're missiong a tail" because 0.000001% of humans may have such an abnormality.  By your logic anything that is possible is normal as long as it is not a result of direct human interference.

Again - the qunari default is the horns. Sten is the guy with the tail.

Modifié par In Exile, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:32 .

[Maria Caliban]

Using the dictionary for 'generic fantasy' probably isn't very useful. I'd suggest the well-known article from one of the writers of The Encyclopedia of Fantasy.

At this early stage I defined Generic Fantasy loosely as the sort of fiction which, while it has "FANTASY" in big letters on the spine and fills to overflowing the section in the bookstore labeled "FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION", is effectively not a form of fantastic literature.

Using standard characters and set in a stock environment which I dubbed (probably not originally) Fantasyland, it can best be regarded as a subgenre of the adventure thriller, or perhaps, depending on the author, of the bodice-buster. My intention in creating such an entry, of course, was to use it as a means whereby Clute and I could clear away huge areas of weedy, pestiferous scrub in the forest that is commercially described as fantasy in order to see the trees we were actually interested in.

Please be aware that Dragon Age II is probably just as generic as Dragon Age: Origins in this regards.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[ZtalkerRM]

Imo, art direction in fantasy settings can only go so far.

The original Dragon Age was, more or less, based on the standard fantasy stigma's of 'underground dwarfs, woodland elves and mighty humans. And Dragons.'



It's the way Tolkien created it, and it's what we see most these days.



With this new art direction (especially the Qunari's!) Bioware is (I feel) trying to step a bit further away from the 'standard' fantasy stuff. I heard the elves would be re-designed as well. And Varric doesn't have a signature beard.

This is only good. Even if it doesn't feel right, Dragon Age 2 is trying to create it's own type of fantasy. Just like Mass Effect has created it's own Sci-fi niche. Not Star-Trek ish, Not Star Wars, not Stargate, just Mass Effect.

[Gtdef]

I actually prefer the new Dante ^^. He looks badass, gritty and right to the point. Hopefully new dmc will come out for pc as well :/

As for DA
From armors to faces I have seen only improvement. I love the new Qunari look. When I first watched the Qunari in destiny trailer bringing total destruction I was really pleased. Male Hawke looks right as well. When I first saw him I was not so sure, but after the trailer and some gameplay videos I'm persuaded that the made the right call. Darkspawn look more disgusting. I'm perfectly ok with it. Flemeth's new model (or I should say Flemeth's alternative model? After all nothing stops her from wearing peasant cloths and changing her hair) is nice as well.

The thing is, I believe that DAO art was flawed and lacked character. For example, Sten was supposed to be a character with different set of ethics and behavior, and a very aggressive warrior, but he looked kind of a confused taller-than-average human that didn't really stand out. If I swap DAO Sten's look with the new Qunari look, everything starts to make sense. Morrigan's flirting, Leliana's teasing and his reactions go on a whole different level. Dwarves too. Varric's model shows a dwarf that have lived on the surface and assumed a look closer to the surface inhabitants, mostly humans. I don't know if it is consciously intented, but it certainly works for me.

Bottomline, I like what I see, but I will wait for the final product before I judge if the changes really work or they were there for marketing purposes.

Modifié par Gtdef, 05 novembre 2010 - 02:12 .

[LTD]

Everything I've seen so far looks either irritating, tasteless or both. Way characters move, their special attacks get extra void-of-taste points.

If a western gaming studio is creating an action RPG, the pathetic  wapanese SUPER COOL approach is worst and most embarrasing  direction to take. Since making huge mistakes and learning from them is an integral part of growing up, such approach looks SUPER COOL if one is 11-15, which is unfortunate.

I will never understand why Bioware has adopted this odd " If it isn't broken, break it" approach towards what they achieved in DA:O. Why are they trying to change everything, rather than building on the previous success? It'd make sense if DA:O had been either critical or commercial failure. It was the very opposite? Why violate it so?

Modifié par LTD, 05 novembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[Saibh]

Darkhour wrote...

Since when is a species defined by rare cases of genetic deformity?

A two headed humans are also naturally occuring.  That doesn't make it normal or "socially exceptable".  No one is going to describe a human as a zero, one, two, three, mayeb four armed one or two headed; zero, one, two or three legged creature with zero, one, two, three or four eyes that may or may not be hairless with possible zero, two, three, four, five, six, seven, etc. fingers, etc. etc.

The mane of a lion, I meant, of course. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Except there are places where those things are considered acceptable. A baby girl born in India with two faces in a small town was hailed as a goddess reborn just recently. That you cannot see otherwise is just cultural discrimination on your part.

A trait like being hornless--which, as I imagine the qunari don't need or use their horns--is benign and not as likely to be looked upon as some sort of vulgar mutation. They also could have specifically attempted to breed this trait in other qunari, which would explain its prevalence.

I don't only ignore it. I dismiss it. None of that is normal.  If it was normal you wouldn't be claimng they are missiong anything.  No one is going to tell me, "You're missiong a tail" because 0.000001% of humans may have such an abnormality.  By your logic anything that is possible is normal as long as it is not a result of direct human interference.

Some people are born without an appendix or have no wisdom teeth.

That's utterly normal. They are "missing" something because other people have them naturally.

[Addai]

yukidama wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Honestly the first time I fired up Origins with absolutely zero knowledge of the game beforehand, my first thought was "this looks really generic". I'm honestly not too sure what kept me playing long enough for the story to hook me. I mean, I'm glad I stuck with it but from where I'm standing the new art direction is a big improvement.

Yeah, pretty much the reason I didn't pick it up until my friend said it was awesome. It just looked bland and generic and didn't make me want to look up more about it. Western fantasy wasn't really my thing (aside from LoTR at the time), so when it looked to be just that in a boring brown package I went "next". Having a more interesting look will attract people, no matter how shallow. stupid or unworthy you deem them to play the game.

I'm apparently the opposite then, since I have zero desire to spend hours in a Japanese comic book world.  Much more interested in feudal medieval Europe... especially since it's largely a (hey wow) feudal medieval European setting.

I don't really care about something being "recognizable," I just want it to be interesting, with fine detail.  Something spare and austere might be cool to some, but it doesn't draw me in.  OMMV.

[CarlSpackler]

Chris Priestly wrote...

This is a Batman image drawn by artist Jim Lee.
../../../uploads_user/1000/46/60537.jpg


This is a Batman image drawn by Sam Kieth.
../../../uploads_user/1000/46/60538.jpg


Which image is "right"?

Well obviously the Jim Lee incarnation, I mean come on.


More related to the game, it does kind of fascinate me how the original DA gaming universe is different things to different people.  We've seen folks who dislike "inconsistent" art direction, folks who dislike not continuing our Warden, folks who dislike what they've seen of combat, and folks don't like the change from silent to voiced protagonist.  (In the interest of full disclosure, my sympathies are unequivocally with the last of those complaints.) But the other issues, meh, I’m excited to see the new art, fine with playing a new character and have said previously that while I hope to enjoy combat; combat is pretty low on my priority in terms of why I enjoy Bioware games. So here’s to enjoying the new art direction!

[Addai]

Darkhour wrote...

The really telling thing about DA2 is that when I.. no, when ALL of us saw the first video we probably thought that horn dude was some kind of abomination or new beastmen race.  Not a single person, without prior knowledge, knew that grey, stony skinned, horned, slouching, growling beastman was a qunari. 

I don't like the new art direction, either, but that's not true in my case at least.  I recognized it as a Qunari.  Looks more ogre-like and fits with established lore about Qunari being "horned men", so in some ways I find the "new" Qunari to be more lore-consistent than the ones we saw in Origins.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:29 .

[Addai]

AlanC9 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

~ All females having massive breasts.

This was a change?

Definitely.

[soteria]

Weren't females' breasts in DA:O size D or something? I thought they were pretty large already, especially for athletic females.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't like the new art direction, either, but that's not true in my case at least.  I recognized it as a Qunari.  Looks more ogre-like and fits with established lore about Qunari being "horned men", so in some ways I find the "new" Qunari to be more lore-consistent than the ones we saw in Origins.

What established lore about them being "horned men"?  The codex describes them as "White-haired, bronze-skinned giants, a head again taller than a man, with frighteningly calm demeanors and a sort of sparkling fire behind their eyes"

Modifié par Wulfram, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[Maria Caliban]

Jim Lee is good for dramatic poses, but when it comes to emotional expression or movement, I find his work stiff.
Anyway, the 'right' Batman:


Batman: Year One. The Batman who doesn't spend his time posing on rooftops, can't dodge bullets, doesn't have 101 things stuffed in his utility belt, offers more than snappy one-liners, and struggles to make a difference in the world.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't like the new art direction, either, but that's not true in my case at least.  I recognized it as a Qunari.  Looks more ogre-like and fits with established lore about Qunari being "horned men", so in some ways I find the "new" Qunari to be more lore-consistent than the ones we saw in Origins.

What established lore about them being "horned men"?  The codex describes them as "White-haired, bronze-skinned giants, a head again taller than a man, with frighteningly calm demeanors and a sort of sparkling fire behind their eyes"

I believe it was a codex about... Rivain?  Being invaded by fearsome "horned men."  And the fact that ogres have horns establishes it as lore as well.

[Addai]

soteria wrote...

Weren't females' breasts in DA:O size D or something? I thought they were pretty large already, especially for athletic females.

And now we have Bethany's size-J porn melons floating on her magical push-up bra.  Combined with how she walks in the gameplay video, I might end up missing the linebacker shoulders and baseball-mitt hands.  Assuming that's really how the female model is going to look.  I'm hopeful that common sense and taste will prevail.

[mellifera]

Addai67 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Honestly the first time I fired up Origins with absolutely zero knowledge of the game beforehand, my first thought was "this looks really generic". I'm honestly not too sure what kept me playing long enough for the story to hook me. I mean, I'm glad I stuck with it but from where I'm standing the new art direction is a big improvement.

Yeah, pretty much the reason I didn't pick it up until my friend said it was awesome. It just looked bland and generic and didn't make me want to look up more about it. Western fantasy wasn't really my thing (aside from LoTR at the time), so when it looked to be just that in a boring brown package I went "next". Having a more interesting look will attract people, no matter how shallow. stupid or unworthy you deem them to play the game.

I'm apparently the opposite then, since I have zero desire to spend hours in a Japanese comic book world.  Much more interested in feudal medieval Europe... especially since it's largely a (hey wow) feudal medieval European setting.

I don't really care about something being "recognizable," I just want it to be interesting, with fine detail.  Something spare and austere might be cool to some, but it doesn't draw me in.  OMMV.

I didn't say I had a desire to spend hours in a Japanese comic book world. Trust me, I've spent ages in those and feel that label is disingenuous because JRPGs and anime/manga are as varied as any genre in terms of art style and content. Using it as a way to insult and devalue something registers as ineffective in my mind the minute I see it.

The reason I didn't initially pick it up is because, well, hey, it looked like something uninteresting to me AND it looked plain. It doesn't have to be a JRPG for a game to look stunning. I've played turn based combat and turn based strategy grid games, I've played action games, I've played weird mixes of all those. Games cost money. If it doesn't draw my interest to start with (genre-wise, stylistically) I won't bother looking it up to learn more because my $60 could buy me something else. Marketing and appearances do matter, especially when wanting to attract an even larger audience.

You don't have to like it, really, but the changes are there and I personally think it's okay. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative. Just... comparing it other genres as means to demean is really damn annoying.

[slimgrin]

Fact is, DA was a fairly generic looking game. Not talking about graphics, but art design. I don't blame them for changing it.

But the new dark spawn make me think of planet of the apes, or some campy 80's flick. They were human once, make them move and behave somewhat human, like they did in origins, not like chimps. It's more comical than anything, especially when juxtaposed with the fighting animations from Hawke which look pretty cool.

Most of the other changes are a huge improvement, with the exception of graphics which seem to have low-res surface textures.

Mostly, I'm glad because of the great new character models which beat out any other Bioware game to date.

Modifié par slimgrin, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[the_one_54321]

Um, the darkspawn were never human. They come from a broodmother. The broodmother was once human, dwarf, or elf. The darkspawn themselves, not at all.

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Um, the darkspawn were never human. They come from a broodmother. The broodmother was once human, dwarf, or elf. The darkspawn themselves, not at all.

Sometimes they are--you meet Tamlen in the middle of becoming a shriek.

[mellifera]

Saibh wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Um, the darkspawn were never human. They come from a broodmother. The broodmother was once human, dwarf, or elf. The darkspawn themselves, not at all.

Sometimes they are--you meet Tamlen in the middle of becoming a shriek.

Ghoul.

[Addai]

yukidama wrote...

The reason I didn't initially pick it up is because, well, hey, it looked like something uninteresting to me AND it looked plain. It doesn't have to be a JRPG for a game to look stunning. I've played turn based combat and turn based strategy grid games, I've played action games, I've played weird mixes of all those. Games cost money. If it doesn't draw my interest to start with (genre-wise, stylistically) I won't bother looking it up to learn more because my $60 could buy me something else. Marketing and appearances do matter, especially when wanting to attract an even larger audience.

You don't have to like it, really, but the changes are there and I personally think it's okay. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative. Just... comparing it other genres as means to demean is really damn annoying.

I'm saying what my impression of the style is.  Just as you said "western fantasy" in a rather derogatory way.  Obviously, tastes differ.  That was sort of my point.  Yet you're saying "this is going to draw in more people," as though the art changes are somehow objectively better.  In other words, because you like it, the mass mainstream is going to?

LOTR-like western fantasy sells pretty well and obviously appeals to a lot of people, BTW.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[slimgrin]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Um, the darkspawn were never human. They come from a broodmother. The broodmother was once human, dwarf, or elf. The darkspawn themselves, not at all.

What about the first humans who were cast down and turned into darkspwan? 

No matter, if I got the lore wrong my mistake. Guess my point is I don't like the new dark spawn.

Modifié par slimgrin, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Maria Caliban]

I don't understand why people constantly bash on JRPGs here. I don't think I've ever played one, but they seem interesting, and their art design is far more varied than the grizzled space marine look that seems to permeate Western games. I notice that the men and women tend to be slender, but might be because the Japanese tend to me more slender than Americans.

[Ympulse]

Saibh wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Um, the darkspawn were never human. They come from a broodmother. The broodmother was once human, dwarf, or elf. The darkspawn themselves, not at all.

Sometimes they are--you meet Tamlen in the middle of becoming a shriek.

And where is this conformed? You meet Tamlen in the middle of becoming a ghoul, and he is accompanied by Shrieks. (Read also: the Darkspawn Horde's semi-sneaky types)

I may have missed something in the novel-length codex in DA:O, but nowhere does it say that elves = shrieks when you apply darkspawn taint.

[Saibh]

yukidama wrote...

Saibh wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Um, the darkspawn were never human. They come from a broodmother. The broodmother was once human, dwarf, or elf. The darkspawn themselves, not at all.

Sometimes they are--you meet Tamlen in the middle of becoming a shriek.

Ghoul.

Monster (edit: I should point out that I'm being contrary). But you're right. Huh. Maybe I'm just confusing all of the references to being turned into a darkspawn with actual fact. Not like Soldier John H. Redshirt is going to know.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:31 .