393 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't understand why people constantly bash on JRPGs here. I don't think I've ever played one, but they seem interesting, and their art design is far more varied than the grizzled space marine look that seems to permeate Western games. I notice that the men and women tend to be slender, but might be because the Japanese tend to me more slender than Americans.

A friend explained to me they have different heteronormative standards. Essentially, beefcakes in Japan are our equivalent of flamboyant homosexuals. Looking slender and feminine is an important standard of beauty there. Apparently, the most attractive men are the ones who are indistinguishable in principle for women. But for all I know I've been fed nonsense.

[tmp7704]

There's also another aspect worth mention, perhaps... something that looks "generic" can be at the same time made looking good, to the point where you sort of overlook it is, in fact, generic.

Case in point, i really wouldn't mind Brecilian Forest, Korcari wilds etc look like this.

The kicker, that's graphics from a MMO i.e. genre which has to be rather cautious about pushing hardware requirements. And it's a Korean game, to boot. For all the "JRPG" complaints... well.

[mellifera]

Addai67 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

The reason I didn't initially pick it up is because, well, hey, it looked like something uninteresting to me AND it looked plain. It doesn't have to be a JRPG for a game to look stunning. I've played turn based combat and turn based strategy grid games, I've played action games, I've played weird mixes of all those. Games cost money. If it doesn't draw my interest to start with (genre-wise, stylistically) I won't bother looking it up to learn more because my $60 could buy me something else. Marketing and appearances do matter, especially when wanting to attract an even larger audience.

You don't have to like it, really, but the changes are there and I personally think it's okay. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative. Just... comparing it other genres as means to demean is really damn annoying.

I'm saying what my impression of the style is.  Just as you said "western fantasy" in a rather derogatory way.  Obviously, tastes differ.  That was sort of my point.  Yet you're saying "this is going to draw in more people," as though the art changes are somehow objectively better.  In other words, because you like it, the mass mainstream is going to?

LOTR-like western fantasy sells pretty well and obviously appeals to a lot of people, BTW.

I said it did not appeal to me at the time, aside from LoTR... Somewhere around here. I am not saying Western fantasy is bad... I wouldn't be trying to read stuff like the ASIAF or WoT series if I thought the genre was pure sh*t. Just that Dragon Age did not seem like a series I wanted to get into because I did not have a real interest in the genre AND it didn't look good to me. I am not imposing any sort of value judgement on Western versus Eastern fantasy, just that Western fantasy was not my thing at that time, and that is one of the reasons I initially passed Dragon Age over.

I'm saying something shinier will probably catch a person's eye more quickly than something dull. Whether or not that is a good thing is up to your personal interpretation. I am not saying it is absolutely better because it is more mainstream or sparkly, just that to me it looks good and therefore I don't see a reason it shouldn't stay as it is. I cannot say it will be better objectively because there's no such thing when it comes to this issue. Merely that we do live in a consumer society and that something with a more definitive art style and look, even if you think it looks stupid, will probably garner more attention at a first glance.

Modifié par yukidama, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[In Exile]

In general, I think expecting a solid ambient atmosphere or breathtaking environments from Bioware is just generally a bad plan. Bioware does some things very well, but the atmospheric side of things is not their strength.

[the_one_54321]

Whenever someone wades into a conversation with cliched quips about how Japanese fiction is full of girl-men and giant swords, that is the point where you should realize they are not worth taking seriously. Because that is the point where it becomes obvious that they either have no idea what they are talking about or they are just trolling.

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...

soteria wrote...

Weren't females' breasts in DA:O size D or something? I thought they were pretty large already, especially for athletic females.

And now we have Bethany's size-J porn melons floating on her magical push-up bra.  Combined with how she walks in the gameplay video, I might end up missing the linebacker shoulders and baseball-mitt hands.  Assuming that's really how the female model is going to look.  I'm hopeful that common sense and taste will prevail.

I honestly didn't see a significant difference, unless we're comparing Morrigan in her personal outfit with Bethany. Does anyone have screenshots from comparable angles of a regular DA model? Not in the Chasind Robes, which seem to be a bit .... inflated.

[tmp7704]

AlanC9 wrote...

I honestly didn't see a significant difference, unless we're comparing Morrigan in her personal outfit with Bethany. Does anyone have screenshots from comparable angles of a regular DA model? Not in the Chasind Robes, which seem to be a bit .... inflated.

The default DAO shapes are pretty... generous already, yes. It's not even the size itself but how apparently Ferelden gravity works in quite selective ways. Or everyone invests in a push-up bra.

edit: still, anyone who thinks DA is pretty bad about it should play Drakensang. It provides some... perspective of how there's always room for more, or for worse.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...
A friend explained to me they have different heteronormative standards. Essentially, beefcakes in Japan are our equivalent of flamboyant homosexuals. Looking slender and feminine is an important standard of beauty there. Apparently, the most attractive men are the ones who are indistinguishable in principle for women. But for all I know I've been fed nonsense.

That does seem to fit with the normal standard in fictional representation. Although the slender men are still just as often intended to be manly or cavalier in attitude they are still always fairly lank and with soft features in the face. The large muscled men are often used to comedic effect, or are implied to be homosexuals.

[Addai]

Saibh wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Saibh wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Um, the darkspawn were never human. They come from a broodmother. The broodmother was once human, dwarf, or elf. The darkspawn themselves, not at all.

Sometimes they are--you meet Tamlen in the middle of becoming a shriek.

Ghoul.

Monster (edit: I should point out that I'm being contrary). But you're right. Huh. Maybe I'm just confusing all of the references to being turned into a darkspawn with actual fact. Not like Soldier John H. Redshirt is going to know.

He's called "Tormented Shriek" when you see him again.  So it's a bit confused.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Whenever someone wades into a conversation with cliched quips about how Japanese fiction is full of girl-men and giant swords, that is the point where you should realize they are not worth taking seriously. Because that is the point where it becomes obvious that they either have no idea what they are talking about or they are just trolling.

Are you referring to anyone in particular?  If you mean me, don't get your manga-nerd knickers in a knot.   It's obvious the stylistic influences are Japanese, the marketing even says that a particular Akira Kurosawa film was a major influence on the opening shots we've seen, and that the style is meant to be more arty/ comic.  Hence Japanese + comic as contrasted to western fantasy style.

[Addai]

yukidama wrote...
I'm saying something shinier will probably catch a person's eye more quickly than something dull.

I thought the point of the art direction was to be more spare and austere rather than shinier, but whatever.  Dull is also in the eye of the beholder.  To me the current art direction is pretty dull.  The only shots I've seen that have been at all impressive were the cliffs of Kirkwall and the one shot of the Qunari and chained mages.

[the_one_54321]

Did you make comments about all Japanese fiction being fully of girl-men and giant swords?

[Luigitornado]

I read my fair share of comic books, and I think it is safe to say that both Western and Eastern influences have been meshing for a while.

I've never been too fond of Japanese anime, for me, it often feels a little detached and overproduced.That's not to say that it can't be done well, I just don't care for it.

I think it is safe to say that more western gamers enjoy western art influences, and eastern gamers enjoy eastern art influnces.

[the_one_54321]

Someone posted a comparison pic between Isabela and Lightning. The similarities were certainly there. I wouldn't count out the influences at all. Especially when you look at her swords. But I don't see it as a bad thing. It makes the character interesting to look at. I got seriously bored with all the drab armors and weapons in DA:O pretty quickly. I downloaded the sacred ashes armor for Leliana just so that she didn't have to look so blah all the time.

[Aumata]

Addai67 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Whenever someone wades into a conversation with cliched quips about how Japanese fiction is full of girl-men and giant swords, that is the point where you should realize they are not worth taking seriously. Because that is the point where it becomes obvious that they either have no idea what they are talking about or they are just trolling.

Are you referring to anyone in particular?  If you mean me, don't get your manga-nerd knickers in a knot.   It's obvious the stylistic influences are Japanese, the marketing even says that a particular Akira Kurosawa film was a major influence on the opening shots we've seen, and that the style is meant to be more arty/ comic.  Hence Japanese + comic as contrasted to western fantasy style.

I don't really see that as a problem, considering that Star Wars was influence by the director.  Also there are exageration the west also so I really don't see this as a problem, considering people get influence from one another in art.  Somebody did stated that the art style between the east and west has been merging anyway, and the art design still yells out western influence than eastern.  Though I don't really see that as a problem.

[Addai]

tmp7704 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I honestly didn't see a significant difference, unless we're comparing Morrigan in her personal outfit with Bethany. Does anyone have screenshots from comparable angles of a regular DA model? Not in the Chasind Robes, which seem to be a bit .... inflated.

The default DAO shapes are pretty... generous already, yes. It's not even the size itself but how apparently Ferelden gravity works in quite selective ways. Or everyone invests in a push-up bra.

I had to dig deep in my screenshot folder to find an HF figure from before I started using tmp's proportion fix, so this is all I had.



Bethany's gotten a bit of an "upgrade."

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't understand why people constantly bash on JRPGs here. I don't think I've ever played one, but they seem interesting, and their art design is far more varied than the grizzled space marine look that seems to permeate Western games. I notice that the men and women tend to be slender, but might be because the Japanese tend to me more slender than Americans.

Thats easy, most JRPG's are just plain ridiculous, bosses with 15000000000 HP, androgynous lead characters, over sized exaggerated weapons, plots that make little to no sense.  Carebear color coded graphics even though the stories tend to be "end of the world" type situations. That pretty much explains every FF game from 7 on and its not just FF games that are like that.

Some people are into that, and thats quite alright, for me though I'd rather JRPG's stay JRPG's and leave my western RPG's alone. Basically they can keep their anime looking characters/colors and let me keep my gritty, realiistic looking worlds.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[JrayM16]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't understand why people constantly bash on JRPGs here. I don't think I've ever played one, but they seem interesting, and their art design is far more varied than the grizzled space marine look that seems to permeate Western games. I notice that the men and women tend to be slender, but might be because the Japanese tend to me more slender than Americans.

Thats easy, most JRPG's are just plain ridiculous, bosses with 15000000000 HP, androgynous lead characters, over sized exaggerated weapons, plots that make little to no sense.  Carebear color coded graphics even though the stories tend to be "end of the world" type situations. That pretty much explains every FF game from 7 on and its not just FF games that are like that.

Some people are into that, and thats quite alright, for me though I'd rather JRPG's stay JRPG's and leave my western RPG's alone.

While I actually agree with many of your points, I'm going to play devil's advocate here to demonstrate a point.

JRPGs were my first experience with RPGs.  I no longer play JRPGs.  Why?  Because they didn't change and got stale.  As much as I do not like FF7 and it is a deeply flawed game, I give it a lot of credit for advancing the genre at that point in time.  The problem is that there hasn't been any evolution since FF7, atleast not as significant a departure as it itself was. 

JRPGs are in fact indirectly respinsable for the growing popularity of western RPGs.  FF7 popularized JRPGs in the west.  However, as they grew stagnant, western gamers got sick of and left them behind.  And then there's KOTOR.  KOTOR drew many of those disgruntled JRPG fans over(partially due to the Star Wars license, partially due to it's few similarities to JRPGs) and suddenly they're hooked. 

By the time Mass Effect comes out, there is a much bigger audience waiting for it.  All this then snowballs into the situation we currently have. 

As to your more specific complaints concerning JRPGs, many of them are actually gross exaggerations or even things that western RPGs also do a fair amount of the time(atleast the 'end of the world' plotline, very common in western RPGs, as in all videogames) but I'm not going to go into that too much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Anarya wrote...

Um, I'm fully aware of what "generic" means and I used it properly:

Merriam-Webster wrote:
1a : relating to or characteristic of a whole group or class : general
b : being or having a nonproprietary name
c : having no particularly distinctive quality or application

I did not use it as a synonym for "something that has been seen already" or "something that is realistic" or "something that is boring" (generic things do tend to be boring, however).

You're bringing a lot of personal baggage you have with the word "generic" into our posts. I refuse to stop using the word that means exactly what I want to say just because you have issues with it. [insert "deal with it" gif]

If you refer to meaning 1a, then that's rather redundant. Anything shares a group of characteristics with something else. All RPG's have levels and sword, hence all are generic...

If you refer to meaing c, then realise that "particulary distinctive" is highly subjective in itself. Hence why it's "genericness" is rather subjective. Also, I'd rather have generic art, then have generic plot and gameplay.

[Darkhour]

In Exile wrote...

Darkhour wrote..

Since when is a species defined by rare cases of genetic deformity?

?

Sten is the genetic deforminity. Horns are the default, not the abnormality.

Though as it turns out, apparently the lack of horns are revered.

don't only ignore it. I dismiss it. None of that is normal.  If it was normal you wouldn't be claimng they are missiong anything.  No one is going to tell me, "You're missiong a tail" because 0.000001% of humans may have such an abnormality.  By your logic anything that is possible is normal as long as it is not a result of direct human interference.

Again - the qunari default is the horns. Sten is the guy with the tail.

Sten, the two other qunari who came with him, the 10+ qunari mercs you came across throughout the game... Yeah, Ferelden is just a regular qunari freak show magnet.  Don't get me wrong, it makes sense for qunari to have horns considering ogres are qunari darkspawn, but that simply is not the case in Origins.  Retcon is retcon.

[In Exile]

Darkhour wrote...
Sten, the two other qunari who came with him, the 10+ qunari mercs you came across throughout the game... Yeah, Ferelden is just a regular qunari freak show magnet.  Don't get me wrong, it makes sense for qunari to have horns considering ogres are qunari darkspawn, but that simply is not the case in Origins.  Retcon is retcon.

I wish it was a rectcon. Then it wouldn't be stupid. But no, Bioware insists that Sten is a special rare flower and most qunari have horns.

[Darkhour]

Saibh wrote...

The mane of a lion, I meant, of course. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Except there are places where those things are considered acceptable. A baby girl born in India with two faces in a small town was hailed as a goddess reborn just recently.

YEAH, WHAT A GREAT EXAMPLE OF A TYPICAL REACTION TO A TWO FACED BABY.  IT SURE IS NORMAL ALRIGHT.  I BET A WHOLE 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% OF THE HUMAN RACE SUFFER... ER, I MEAN, ENJOY THAT PARTICULAR (AND VERY NORMAL) ATTRIBUTE.

...jesus christ.

That you cannot see otherwise is just cultural discrimination on your part.

Everyone discriminates against foreign cultures.  If you disagree with slavery it's cultural discrimination.  If you think honor killings are wrong it's cultural discrimination.  Acknowledging that being born with two faces is an undesirable deformity is not cultural discrimination, however.  It's just reality. 

[Darkhour]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't like the new art direction, either, but that's not true in my case at least.  I recognized it as a Qunari.  Looks more ogre-like and fits with established lore about Qunari being "horned men", so in some ways I find the "new" Qunari to be more lore-consistent than the ones we saw in Origins.

What "established lore" about qunari being horned men?  When you say "established lore" are you referring to the retcon???  There is established lore describing them as tall, golden skin with a smoldering fire quality to their eyes. 

Where did you get "horned men" from this:
 
"Anyone who travels far enough to the north will eventually encounter the qunari: White-haired, bronze-skinned giants, a head again taller than a man, with frighteningly calm demeanors and a sort of sparkling fire behind their eyes. "

Modifié par Darkhour, 07 novembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[soteria]

YEAH, WHAT A GREAT EXAMPLE OF A TYPICAL REACTION TO A TWO FACED BABY. IT SURE IS NORMAL ALRIGHT. I BET A WHOLE 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% OF THE HUMAN RACE SUFFER... ER, I MEAN, ENJOY THAT PARTICULAR (AND VERY NORMAL) ATTRIBUTE.

...jesus christ.

You're saying benign yet visible mutations are the same as harmful mutations? Really?

Everyone discriminates against foreign cultures. If you disagree with slavery it's cultural discrimination. If you think honor killings are wrong it's cultural discrimination. Acknowledging that being born with two faces is an undesirable deformity is not cultural discrimination, however. It's just reality.

Leaving aside that you're basically making an argument based on an ideological assumption that many people are going to disagree with... Make up your mind. You just got done mocking the comparison to a harmless mutation. Are you saying that a maneless lion is also an "undesirable deformity"?

[Sharn01]

soteria wrote...

YEAH, WHAT A GREAT EXAMPLE OF A TYPICAL REACTION TO A TWO FACED BABY. IT SURE IS NORMAL ALRIGHT. I BET A WHOLE 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% OF THE HUMAN RACE SUFFER... ER, I MEAN, ENJOY THAT PARTICULAR (AND VERY NORMAL) ATTRIBUTE.
...jesus christ.

You're saying benign yet visible mutations are the same as harmful mutations? Really?

No, he is not.  He is saying that extreme abnormalities are by their very nature extreme, and should not be considered a feature of the species used in describing them, you obviously did not read all of the comments between this individual and others, so you only saw the very last part of the conversation.  He basicly was trying to say that a human having two faces isnt normal, and should not be considered normal or be used as a defining characteristic of the human race, no matter how acceptable it is socially here or anywhere else. 

Just because a group of people find something acceptable or even desirable does not make it normal, if decribing humans to an alien race that came to earth to understand us, being blind, deaf and mute would not be used to describe the human race, yet it occurs more often at birth then having two faces, and neither is normal for a human.

soteria wrote...

Everyone discriminates against foreign cultures. If you disagree with slavery it's cultural discrimination. If you think honor killings are wrong it's cultural discrimination. Acknowledging that being born with two faces is an undesirable deformity is not cultural discrimination, however. It's just reality.

Leaving aside that you're basically making an argument based on an ideological assumption that many people are going to disagree with... Make up your mind. You just got done mocking the comparison to a harmless mutation. Are you saying that a maneless lion is also an "undesirable deformity"?

Yes, a male lion without a mane is an undesirable deformity, the two primary causes of a lion being maneless is that it has low testosterone, making in weaker and lighter then other males, the other is inbreeding.