393 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

Darkhour wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't like the new art direction, either, but that's not true in my case at least.  I recognized it as a Qunari.  Looks more ogre-like and fits with established lore about Qunari being "horned men", so in some ways I find the "new" Qunari to be more lore-consistent than the ones we saw in Origins.

What "established lore" about qunari being horned men?  When you say "established lore" are you referring to the retcon???  There is established lore describing them as tall, golden skin with a smoldering fire quality to their eyes. 

Where did you get "horned men" from this:
 
"Anyone who travels far enough to the north will eventually encounter the qunari: White-haired, bronze-skinned giants, a head again taller than a man, with frighteningly calm demeanors and a sort of sparkling fire behind their eyes. "

From the Codex.  Sten is 'special' because he doesn't have horns. As far as the eyes, well, we haven't seen a Qunari close up enough thus far to make the determination.

[Leonia]

Also, the Codex can't be taken as gospel, they are biased accounts and descriptions. It's not like the entry says "They definitely don't have horns", it's just simply not mentioned at all, which is convenient for the writers and artists who have changed the appearance of the qunari. Whether that is a planned coincidence or not, I do not know. But you can't call it a retcon.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 novembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[GodWood]

I wish they'd at least kept them 'bronze skinned'.

[soteria]

He basicly was trying to say that a human having two faces isnt normal, and should not be considered normal or be used as a defining characteristic of the human race, no matter how acceptable it is socially here or anywhere else.

As others have pointed out, being hornless isn't a defining characterstic of Qunari. The opposite is true. Haven't they said that a lack of horns is the exception to the norm? What are you even trying to say here? You seem to be confusing "acceptable" and "normal."

[Sharn01]

soteria wrote...

He basicly was trying to say that a human having two faces isnt normal, and should not be considered normal or be used as a defining characteristic of the human race, no matter how acceptable it is socially here or anywhere else.

As others have pointed out, being hornless isn't a defining characterstic of Qunari. The opposite is true. Haven't they said that a lack of horns is the exception to the norm? What are you even trying to say here? You seem to be confusing "acceptable" and "normal."

The whole point from my understanding is that he wants it called a retcon, and I can see his point.  With ME2 and now dragon age they are making big changes to the way things work, and instead of being honest and saying we are changing this because we feel it works better this way, they come up with some half ass excuse.

Sten is not the only Qunari you meet in Origins, I recall killing at least 20 to 30 of them at different points in the game, not a single one had horns, so apparently these gifted hornless qunari that are held in high esteem all fled to Fereldan to escape all the attention they where getting back home.

[Fortlowe]

Sharn01 wrote...

soteria wrote...

He basicly was trying to say that a human having two faces isnt normal, and should not be considered normal or be used as a defining characteristic of the human race, no matter how acceptable it is socially here or anywhere else.

As others have pointed out, being hornless isn't a defining characterstic of Qunari. The opposite is true. Haven't they said that a lack of horns is the exception to the norm? What are you even trying to say here? You seem to be confusing "acceptable" and "normal."

The whole point from my understanding is that he wants it called a retcon, and I can see his point.  With ME2 and now dragon age they are making big changes to the way things work, and instead of being honest and saying we are changing this because we feel it works better this way, they come up with some half ass excuse.

Sten is not the only Qunari you meet in Origins, I recall killing at least 20 to 30 of them at different points in the game, not a single one had horns, so apparently these gifted hornless qunari that are held in high esteem all fled to Fereldan to escape all the attention they where getting back home.

I think the rest (or at least most of them presumably) cut their horns off like Armass from Awakenings.  It likely is some symbolic gesture signifying their seperation from the Qun.

[Sharn01]

Fortlowe wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

soteria wrote...

He basicly was trying to say that a human having two faces isnt normal, and should not be considered normal or be used as a defining characteristic of the human race, no matter how acceptable it is socially here or anywhere else.

As others have pointed out, being hornless isn't a defining characterstic of Qunari. The opposite is true. Haven't they said that a lack of horns is the exception to the norm? What are you even trying to say here? You seem to be confusing "acceptable" and "normal."

The whole point from my understanding is that he wants it called a retcon, and I can see his point.  With ME2 and now dragon age they are making big changes to the way things work, and instead of being honest and saying we are changing this because we feel it works better this way, they come up with some half ass excuse.

Sten is not the only Qunari you meet in Origins, I recall killing at least 20 to 30 of them at different points in the game, not a single one had horns, so apparently these gifted hornless qunari that are held in high esteem all fled to Fereldan to escape all the attention they where getting back home.

I think the rest (or at least most of them presumably) cut their horns off like Armass from Awakenings.  It likely is some symbolic gesture signifying their seperation from the Qun.

The qunari who felt shamed cutting or breaking off their horns, such as Sten losing his sword and mercenaries who have fled their nation is an idea I could get behind, there where no scars or markings of horns in origins, but that is something that can be overlooked.  Bioware however has said that some qunari are born without horns and they are considered special and held in high esteem,  which makes every single qunari in origins as rare as a  four leaf clover.

Modifié par Sharn01, 07 novembre 2010 - 08:32 .

[GodWood]

Those were not qunari.

They were Tal Vashoth.

[Sharn01]

GodWood wrote...

Those were not qunari.
They were Tal Vashoth.

Same race, different culture.  Since people use the term qunari to describe the race, they are for the intent of the conversation taking place here, qunari.  Tal Vashoth where simply traitor qunari who did not follow the qun, basicly the same thing as the church labeling someone a heretic.

[GodWood]

Tal Vashoth shave/cut off their horns, so they were not special qunari like Sten.



I'm not a fan of it but thats the explanation they've given us.

[Fortlowe]

Sharn01 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Those were not qunari.
They were Tal Vashoth.

Same race, different culture.  Since people use the term qunari to describe the race, they are for the intent of the conversation taking place here, qunari.  Tal Vashoth where simply traitor qunari who did not follow the qun, basicly the same thing as the church labeling someone a heretic.

It does, however, make an excellent distinction between the Qunari we saw and DA:O and those we will see in DA2. I still think that all the Qunari (Tal' Vashoth) we saw in DA:O cut off their horns except for Sten. Whether it be for ceremonial reasons (denouncing the Qun) or more practical reasons (so as not to draw as much attention to themselves), they were still Qunari as were understand them in DA2, they have just done away with the horns. So they aren't rare or special like Sten, just handy with a saw and a nail file.

'ed  with a more concise explanation....again.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 07 novembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Sharn01]

GodWood wrote...

Tal Vashoth shave/cut off their horns, so they were not special qunari like Sten.

I'm not a fan of it but thats the explanation they've given us.

I had not yet heard that bit of info, only that qunari without horns where considered very rare and special.  In any case its better then what I thought,not a perfect explanation but a better one.  I still think that Sten should have cut them out of shame for losing his sword rather then him being unique, and just leave out the hornless qunari are special crap all together. 

[Addai]

Darkhour wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't like the new art direction, either, but that's not true in my case at least.  I recognized it as a Qunari.  Looks more ogre-like and fits with established lore about Qunari being "horned men", so in some ways I find the "new" Qunari to be more lore-consistent than the ones we saw in Origins.

What "established lore" about qunari being horned men?  When you say "established lore" are you referring to the retcon???  There is established lore describing them as tall, golden skin with a smoldering fire quality to their eyes. 

Where did you get "horned men" from this:
 
"Anyone who travels far enough to the north will eventually encounter the qunari: White-haired, bronze-skinned giants, a head again taller than a man, with frighteningly calm demeanors and a sort of sparkling fire behind their eyes. "

It's not a retcon.  There is a codex reference to an invasion by "horned men".  The ogres having horns is another indication that's it already in the lore.

[Dingul]

Also I like to point out that I really dig the new design of the weapons and armour. For instance, Wesley's templar armour. It looks very much like real plate armour used in the late Medieval Ages instead of "over the top" huge armour in Origins. The weapons also look varied and is such a good add on from what I've seen instead of the generic weapons seen everywhere in any other generic fantasy game.



Also I thought Qunari were suppossed to have horns since their darkspawn "counter-part" had them. I don't recall a darkspawn unit that grew such drastic differences.

[In Exile]

GodWood wrote...

I wish they'd at least kept them 'bronze skinned'.

Their purple hue in DA:O was most certainly not like any bronze I ever saw.

[Darkhour]

soteria wrote...
You're saying benign yet visible mutations are the same as harmful mutations? Really?

If I gave you a choice between two PHYSICALLY benign deformities, webbed feet or having TWO FACES, which would to chose to have and why?

This should be good.

Leaving aside that you're basically making an argument based on an ideological assumption that many people are going to disagree with... Make up your mind. You just got done mocking the comparison to a harmless mutation. Are you saying that a maneless lion is also an "undesirable deformity"?

If I was a lion - and I'm not - but if I were, growing up and not having a mane would be about as desirable as my human male self having a pair of big plump firm ******.  That benign (and appearently normal in your world) "deformity" would definitely be view as a bad thing, at least in my opinion.  I'm sure there are tons of guys who would love to have ****** seeing how it would be a normal thing and all... oh, and harmless as well.  I'm sure most women wouldn't mind having a penis sized clitoris either.  It is harmless, afterall.

[Darkhour]

Fortlowe wrote...

From the Codex.  Sten is 'special' because he doesn't have horns. As far as the eyes, well, we haven't seen a Qunari close up enough thus far to make the determination.

What codex entry? Spit it out if your telling the truth. Are you trolling me? 

Where did you get "horned men" from this:
 
"Anyone who travels far enough to the north will eventually encounter the qunari: White-haired, bronze-skinned giants, a head again taller than a man, with frighteningly calm demeanors and a sort of sparkling fire behind their eyes. "

Addai67 wrote...

It's not a retcon.  There is a codex reference to an invasion by "horned men".  The ogres having horns is another indication that's it already in the lore.

Put up or shut up.  You can either share this codex entry with us or go away.

The codex says elves have wings.  Which codex entry, you ask?  The one in the Codex, of course.

Modifié par Darkhour, 07 novembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[Khayness]

Chris Priestly wrote...

This is a Batman image drawn by artist Jim Lee.

This is a Batman image drawn by Sam Kieth.

Which image is "right"?

If I got it right there is a 4 years gap between the two artists. Not a bit more than 1.

[Darkhour]

Fortlowe wrote...

I think the rest (or at least most of them presumably) cut their horns off like Armass from Awakenings.  It likely is some symbolic gesture signifying their seperation from the Qun.

Did you see the way those horn grow from their heads?  You ain't cutting that off without leaving a mark.

And if I don't care about the Qun why would I mutilate myself to signify renouncing it?  That's like renouncing "mullah islam" and declaring a fatwa on myself for being an apostate.

[Angarma]

Darkhour wrote...

1.  Does anyone think these things are an improvement? Why? And please tell us what you are smoking.

2.  Do you prefer the midget look?

3. What do you think of this new look?

1. No. Hurlocks look like Skeletor. Ogres look like some big kid who was just grounded.
My opinion is that the art team needs to learn from the mass of complaints about this, learn and change them.
If they do not take this advice then someone will just make a mod to fix it otherwise.

2. Kinda. DA: O dwarves looked like Tolkien's dwarves, realistic.
These new ones seem like The Witcher dwarves, which is a mixed blessing in my opinion.
Consistency between these and the ones from Origins makes it seem overall quite odd.

3. The Hellboy / Kratos children which we call the Qunari are something I can get used to.
Only Qunari we saw in the first game + expansion was Armaas, Sten, mercenaries who look like Sten.
We didn't know much about them in Origins, so this in a sense fills a curiosity, which is pleasing.

This new art direction has good and bad points.
We need to tell the developers about the things we do not like for them to change it or at least review it.
Complaining is good as long as it brings a point across, as well as being generally constructive.

[Captain Sassy Pants]

Anarya wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Anarya wrote...

There was not one visual element in it that I could point to as something I haven't seen before in other fantasy games or movies. So that to me is generic.

Because...as someone pointed out, there are established tropes.
I mean, you can't have an elf without pointy ears, or a dragon that doesn't look reptilian, right?

Those are the things you don't change. Armor style, architecture, costume design, weapon design, enemy design, are probably what Anarya is talking about, and those are what you have to work with to create a unique fantasy look.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about.

You don't change those either, as now you do not have a "unique look" for the series, you have a break in continuity.

How can the series look "unique" when the very games within the series don't match each other?

Why are people who didn't even like the first game to begin with trying to force their opinions on the rest of us? It would have been much better if you had just buggered off in the first place. I can't stand comments like "I hated the first, but I love how they changed everything for the sequel."

Why are they making sequels to fit the opinions of people who don't like the first game? That's where the real problem lies.

[AtreiyaN7]

Ogres with horns, meet the qunari - the very race the darkspawn create the ogre broodmothers from! It's known that darkspawn races usually resemble twisted versions of their mother race. Coupled with the Codex information (yes, that reference to horned men whether you like it or not), it's not that unreasonable to believe that there are qunari with horns.

But hey, maybe if everyone sheds just enough tears and emits just enough fear and anger, Mary Kirby's antennae will quiver and detect the (ten millionth) tidal wave of angst over the qunari's new appearance! It's possible that she will then magically appear in this thread with her fear-powered coffee-maker, in which case, everyone might get a free latte and/or an enjoyably snarky comment or two.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 10 novembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Shad0wOGRE]

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Anarya wrote...

There was not one visual element in it that I could point to as something I haven't seen before in other fantasy games or movies. So that to me is generic.

Because...as someone pointed out, there are established tropes.
I mean, you can't have an elf without pointy ears, or a dragon that doesn't look reptilian, right?

Those are the things you don't change. Armor style, architecture, costume design, weapon design, enemy design, are probably what Anarya is talking about, and those are what you have to work with to create a unique fantasy look.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about.

You don't change those either, as now you do not have a "unique look" for the series, you have a break in continuity.

How can the series look "unique" when the very games within the series don't match each other?

Why are people who didn't even like the first game to begin with trying to force their opinions on the rest of us? It would have been much better if you had just buggered off in the first place. I can't stand comments like "I hated the first, but I love how they changed everything for the sequel."

Why are they making sequels to fit the opinions of people who don't like the first game? That's where the real problem lies.

I'm going to toss you a clue. Game developers don't design games that fans will like. They design games that they like and hope fans will to. They may make changes from feedback from fans but ONLY WHEN THEY AGREE WITH IT.

So you can either not buy the game or you can accept it for what it is and enjoy it.

[bzombo]

the art style, if that's what you can call it, stinks. it looks like cheap anime. it looks to me like the new art director, or whatever it's called, is an anime fan and decided to use that to change the game's art style. i still think the old art style was good and just needed hi res graphics across the board. this is really my only big problem with the game so far. fortunately, i don't place a premium on graphics, and art would fall into that category for me.

[Xewaka]

Chris Priestly wrote...

This is a Batman image drawn by artist Jim Lee.
../../../uploads_user/1000/46/60537.jpg


This is a Batman image drawn by Sam Kieth.
../../../uploads_user/1000/46/60538.jpg


Which image is "right"?

The first one.