393 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Xewaka wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

The Qunari thing is kinda lame though, it'd be understandable if they had horns, but do they have to look like demons?

The screenshots and trailers hint that the Qunari might well be the one of the main antagonists in DA:2. Thus, they had to be dehumanized to reduce player qualms about hitting them.

This would seem to be at odds with giving us a second qunari companion.

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

Nefario wrote...



Not really a retcon as it doesn't actually interfere with established continuity. If there had been anything implying that all or even most Qunari looked like Sten prior to the redesign, then it'd be a retcon, but since there wasn't, it's just a super sneaky expanding-the-lore trick.

very well said.

[GodWood]

Harid wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Olivier_dehFanboy wrote...
The old hurlock looked like orcs from lord of the rings. That is poor.
The new hurlock are inspired by inventiveness and creativity.

No, now they just look like *Reptile from Mortal Kombat.

Fixed.

Potayto Potarto

[AtreiyaN7]

Darkhour wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Ogres with horns, meet the qunari - the very race the darkspawn create the ogre broodmothers from! It's known that darkspawn races usually resemble twisted versions of their mother race. Coupled with the Codex information (yes, that reference to horned men whether you like it or not), it's not that unreasonable to believe that there are qunari with horns.

There are no codex entries that mention "horned men".

If there were I would assume you would already have posted it.  That makes you a liar and the words of a liar carry little to no weight.

Someone else said Codex, so I assumed that was where I remembered the men with horns line from and made a quick quip - evidently I was remiss in so doing, so my bad on that. It is mentioned here in the DA2 timeline:

6:30 Steel Age: Whispers reached the lands of Thedas that strange men had arrived in the northern jungle islands of the Boeric Ocean, tall men with horns and ships that fired thunder. These men called themselves “qunari”, and invaded the mainland in a great wave that took humanity by surprise. They forced all they conquered to convert to the Qun, their oppressive religion that heralded all as equals but scorned all individual freedom. Humanity battled to drive the qunari from the mainland for centuries to come.

I could have sworn that it's been mentioned that the actual "change" to the qunari in the Thedas timeline was made around or after DA:O's release, but I'm not that interested in searching through the forums for the past qunari threads. Maybe you can get a dev to comment on that. At any rate, you can conisder it official retcon or official part of the history from the (almost) very start as the case may be. Either way, the one undisputable fact is that ogres are the progeny of qunari broodmothers. It doesn't seem like much of stretech to accept the horns as being one or the qunari's racial characteristics.

The only reason I didn't bother to respond would be because the thread ceased to interest me a whle ago and I never bothered checking back until now (which is largely because there's a dearth of interesting threads to read atm - lol).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:41 .

[Chuvvy]

I don't see a difference. In general it just like their using a slightly less out dated engine now. I don't like what they've done to the hurlocks though. They look, lizardy and I'm reminded of generic action cartoon number 2 from the early nineties whenever I see them.

[ChickenDownUnder]

TrackerTrem wrote...

I think Dante is a perfect exmaple of this frm Devil May Cry



It's still the same ''universe'' but the characters have been so drastically altered it might as well be a whole new world altogether

( And I like ''new'' dante, he seems more realistic than platinum poser dante who has a one liner every 5 minutes)

Origins had that star wars feel, that this place had been lived in for a long time while still being a fantasy game

New Dragon age feels somewhat plastic, too fresh and sterile to be a deadly, rundown fantasy land

In the DmC trailer you can see how his hair on the top and in the roots is white. Wouldn't be too surprised if his hair became whiter and whiter throughout the game.

Origins... hrm... as someone mentioned to me, its the lighting that was the biggest problem, which I partially agree with. Dynamic lighting can "fix" a lot of not-so claudistine textures.You can have the greatest modeling and textures ever, but it can still look like **** if the light effects in the game drains all of the colors and etc.

So maybe the new darkspawn's midget skeletor look would have actually come across better to most people if our first sight of them wasn't in a brightly lit middle-of-nowhere random fight. Maybe

[Xewaka]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

The Qunari thing is kinda lame though, it'd be understandable if they had horns, but do they have to look like demons?

The screenshots and trailers hint that the Qunari might well be the one of the main antagonists in DA:2. Thus, they had to be dehumanized to reduce player qualms about hitting them.

This would seem to be at odds with giving us a second qunari companion.

Has there been any official information about another Qunari companion?
I mean, we don't know if there's going to be an elf available for the party, and I can see an elf more easily inserted into the group.

Modifié par Xewaka, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[The_11thDoctor]

Honestly the art direction in DA has never been a problem if you look at the concept art, but when it came to the texture artist and the modeler, it has been a problem. It seems the texture artist has improved in DA2. The armor is starting to look a lot cooler. I like the potential to be a lot better looking game. I'm still upset about how many different cool pieces of armor never made it in Origins despite the concept art, so I never thought it was the art direction (2d wise)

http://img.neoseeker....php?caid=15016

[Darkhour]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I could have sworn that it's been mentioned that the actual "change" to the qunari in the Thedas timeline was made around or after DA:O's release, but I'm not that interested in searching through the forums for the past qunari threads. Maybe you can get a dev to comment on that. At any rate, you can conisder it official retcon or official part of the history from the (almost) very start as the case may be. Either way, the one undisputable fact is that ogres are the progeny of qunari broodmothers. It doesn't seem like much of stretech to accept the horns as being one or the qunari's racial characteristics.

Sure, it isn't a stretch that qunari would have horns.  It's just the fact that they don't in Origins.

On the otherhand, elves look nothing like Shriekers, either. Humans don't have Joker grins.  If we are going to compare darkspawn to their untainted counterparts, Genlocks should be tougher than hurlocks, ogres should be alot smaller and shriekers should be skinny hurlocks with pointy ears. Instead, shriekers have hunched hump backs, extra jaw mandibles and triple jointed legs. God forbid Bioware makes the elves resemble shriekers.

[AtreiyaN7]

Darkhour wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I could have sworn that it's been mentioned that the actual "change" to the qunari in the Thedas timeline was made around or after DA:O's release, but I'm not that interested in searching through the forums for the past qunari threads. Maybe you can get a dev to comment on that. At any rate, you can conisder it official retcon or official part of the history from the (almost) very start as the case may be. Either way, the one undisputable fact is that ogres are the progeny of qunari broodmothers. It doesn't seem like much of stretech to accept the horns as being one or the qunari's racial characteristics.

Sure, it isn't a stretch that qunari would have horns.  It's just the fact that they don't in Origins.

On the otherhand, elves look nothing like Shriekers, either. Humans don't have Joker grins.  If we are going to compare darkspawn to their untainted counterparts, Genlocks should be tougher than hurlocks, ogres should be alot smaller and shriekers should be skinny hurlocks with pointy ears. Instead, shriekers have hunched hump backs, extra jaw mandibles and triple jointed legs. God forbid Bioware makes the elves resemble shriekers.

They share racial characteristics with their respective broodmothers' races, but it's not necessarily some 1:1 correspondence with regards to features as far as I know. Aren't the qunari supposedly around 10 feet tall or so? It seems reasonable that ogres would be the strongest darkspawn  - and maybe larger than the qunari normally are.

Genlocks are short in stature like dwarves are; hurlocks are about the same size as humans. I don't know that it's a given that dwarves are that much tougher than humans - stronger maybe for their size. If you look at pictures of shriekers closely, they have extremely thin limbs like elves. Seems like they've retained a similar skeletal structure like elves and are fine-boned. What, exactly the mystery hump is I'm not sure (I just put it in the same category as the mysterious hump in turian armor). The shrieks definitely have elf-like pointed ears. Ugh, let me try to link the search (there were four screenshots at the top):

www.google.com/search

Click in the third picture from the left  (the RTO one - bluish tinged) - up close you can see the pointy ears on the shrieker. Or if I failed in my link, I'll have to figure out another way to do it.

EDIT: It's a miracle! I got it to link successfully.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 novembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Darkhour]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

They share racial characteristics with their respective broodmothers' races, but it's not necessarily some 1:1 correspondence with regards to features as far as I know. Aren't the qunari supposedly around 10 feet tall or so? It seems reasonable that ogres would be the strongest darkspawn  - and maybe larger than the qunari normally are.

Genlocks are short in stature like dwarves are; hurlocks are about the same size as humans. I don't know that it's a given that dwarves are that much tougher than humans - stronger maybe for their size. If you look at pictures of shriekers closely, they have extremely thin limbs like elves. Seems like they've retained a similar skeletal structure like elves and are fine-boned. What, exactly the mystery hump is I'm not sure (I just put it in the same category as the mysterious hump in turian armor). The shrieks definitely have elf-like pointed ears. Ugh, let me try to link the search (there were four screenshots at the top):

Dwarves have a higher constitution than humans.  Genlocks, you would think, would be harder to kill than a hurlock.  Looking at a naked dwarf vs a nake human I'd say they are probably physically stronger as well (at least they would be in real life) considering they are  packed with thick muscle.  As for Sharlocks, pointy ears is all they have in common.  The shape of the head, the turian hump back, the three jointed legs and the extra mandibles are 180 turn from elves.  They are actually more believable as the spawn of a werewolf broodmother if we are going to use their untainted counterparts as a reference. Shrieks vs howls, it makes since.

[PsychoBlonde]

Darkhour wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

I think the rest (or at least most of them presumably) cut their horns off like Armass from Awakenings.  It likely is some symbolic gesture signifying their seperation from the Qun.

Did you see the way those horn grow from their heads?  You ain't cutting that off without leaving a mark.

And if I don't care about the Qun why would I mutilate myself to signify renouncing it?  That's like renouncing "mullah islam" and declaring a fatwa on myself for being an apostate.

I wouldn't assume the Tal-Vashoth "don't care" about the Qun.  Depending on why they left they may hate it in a deeply personal way.  And (from talking to Sten) Qunari seem VERY attached to their people, so deciding to leave the only life they've ever known may be intensely and deeply traumatic to them, inducing all kinds of horrific psychological issues.

Self-mutilation is actually one way of dealing with psychological pain--it can be like lancing an abcess and letting it drain by bringing what's going on inside your head into realization in the outer world.  It is an outlet and a release--and physical pain is over remarkably quickly compared to the other kind.  For the Tal-Vashoth, removing their horns may be a powerful symbolic cutting-of-ties that lets them get on with their lives.

And, depending on how the horns are anchored to the skull, it might be fairly easy to remove them without leaving a mark, much like pulling a tooth.  People don't have big scars where teeth were removed, just smooth featureless gum that has healed over the gap.  They had to dig into my jawbone to get my wisdom teeth out, and I can't even tell that they pulled out a big hunk of bony protrusion there.  From what the devs say, Qunari horns are more like rhinocerous horns anyway, they aren't solid chunks of bone.  So while it probably hurts like hell, it's not going to be permanent obvious damage.

Anyway, the only thing that really annoys me about the artistic changes are the lack of clothing on the Qunari, not their new appearance.  (That and Bethany's neck in that one screenshot.)  But overall the changes I've seen are improvements or at least interesting. 

[Darkhour]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I wouldn't assume the Tal-Vashoth "don't care" about the Qun.  Depending on why they left they may hate it in a deeply personal way.  And (from talking to Sten) Qunari seem VERY attached to their people, so deciding to leave the only life they've ever known may be intensely and deeply traumatic to them, inducing all kinds of horrific psychological issues.

Self-mutilation is actually one way of dealing with psychological pain--it can be like lancing an abcess and letting it drain by bringing what's going on inside your head into realization in the outer world.  It is an outlet and a release--and physical pain is over remarkably quickly compared to the other kind.  For the Tal-Vashoth, removing their horns may be a powerful symbolic cutting-of-ties that lets them get on with their lives.

You would have to assume that every single qunari who leaves Par Vollen would feel the exact same way about renouncing the Qun and subsequently react in the exact same way to their "pain".  That's alittle silly, don't you think?  Remember, EVERY SINGLE QUNARI YOU ENCOUNTER IS HORNLESS. 

Why are you even discussing this as if there is some rational reasoning behind why no qunari in origins has horns. The reason is simple: Bioware did not originally envision them to have horns.  Nor did they originally envison them to be grey skined troglodyte-looking demonkin.  No amount of excuses and afterthought is going to erase that fact. 

The funny thing about it is that, if they didn't want to admit to a retcon, they could have easily made the qunari a multi racial society.  Technically, a qunari is a follower of the qun regardless of physical attributes (at least that's how its made out to be).  Qunari is a word akin to Muslim, Christian or Buddhist.  So Sten could have simply been a different race within the qunari than the ones with horns.  Bioware's writters are really slipping up these days.

And, depending on how the horns are anchored to the skull, it might be fairly easy to remove them without leaving a mark, much like pulling a tooth.  People don't have big scars where teeth were removed, just smooth featureless gum that has healed over the gap.  They had to dig into my jawbone to get my wisdom teeth out, and I can't even tell that they pulled out a big hunk of bony protrusion there.  From what the devs say, Qunari horns are more like rhinocerous horns anyway, they aren't solid chunks of bone.  So while it probably hurts like hell, it's not going to be permanent obvious damage.

You do know that removing a rhino's horn will leave more than just a mark.  There is still going to be horn material left over. And if you cut off the root itself you will leave a huge pit that would probably become infected.  That's like saying if you pull a fingernail off the skin will heal perfectly and you would never know that something was missing.  Or that if you cut off a chunk of skin that new skin would heal over it without a trace of injury.  This simply is not true. Not all tissue is the same.  Even in the case of gum tissue it does not necessarily heal up completely.  I've had mine out since 2005 and I still have a crevice from where the lower wisdom teeth once sat requiring quarterly dental cleanings.

[AtreiyaN7]

Darkhour wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

They share racial characteristics with their respective broodmothers' races, but it's not necessarily some 1:1 correspondence with regards to features as far as I know. Aren't the qunari supposedly around 10 feet tall or so? It seems reasonable that ogres would be the strongest darkspawn  - and maybe larger than the qunari normally are.

Genlocks are short in stature like dwarves are; hurlocks are about the same size as humans. I don't know that it's a given that dwarves are that much tougher than humans - stronger maybe for their size. If you look at pictures of shriekers closely, they have extremely thin limbs like elves. Seems like they've retained a similar skeletal structure like elves and are fine-boned. What, exactly the mystery hump is I'm not sure (I just put it in the same category as the mysterious hump in turian armor). The shrieks definitely have elf-like pointed ears. Ugh, let me try to link the search (there were four screenshots at the top):

Dwarves have a higher constitution than humans.  Genlocks, you would think, would be harder to kill than a hurlock.  Looking at a naked dwarf vs a nake human I'd say they are probably physically stronger as well (at least they would be in real life) considering they are  packed with thick muscle.  As for Sharlocks, pointy ears is all they have in common.  The shape of the head, the turian hump back, the three jointed legs and the extra mandibles are 180 turn from elves.  They are actually more believable as the spawn of a werewolf broodmother if we are going to use their untainted counterparts as a reference. Shrieks vs howls, it makes since.

Heh, true, the genlocks have pointed ears, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is a racial characteristic of elves, one retained by the shrieks. Hurlocks as far as I can tell, don't have ears at all (at least the one in the cutscene I just watched to refresh my memory didn't) even though humans do. Again, none of these characteristics are exactly one-to-one.

As far as shrieks go though, I still think that it's the bone structure and thin limbs (werewolf-like humps aside) that strike me as resembling elves the most - their legs and arms are extremely stick-like you must admit. I agree that for their size, dwarves are probably stronger than a human counterpart in theory (and certainly have greater constitution, just judging by their drinking ability alone). Actually, the thing with werewolves is interesting because there were both human AND elven werelwoves, but they all pretty much looked the same with the werewolf hump.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if a werewolf broodmother would end up spawning something that looked like  a werewolf, shriek or hurlock based on the werewolf's original race or if the curse would make the darkspawn look vaguely werewolf-like. Argh, unanswerable question! *head explodes*

[PsychoBlonde]

Darkhour wrote...

Why are you even discussing this as if there is some rational reasoning behind why no qunari in origins has horns. The reason is simple: Bioware did not originally envision them to have horns.  Nor did they originally envison them to be grey skined troglodyte-looking demonkin.  No amount of excuses and afterthought is going to erase that fact.

And you may have noticed that no one is claiming that Bioware DID originally envision Qunari as having horns.  What we are saying is that the explanation as given is perfectly acceptable.  There are only a couple of dozen Qunari mercenaries in Origins and you see a grand total of about five of them bare-faced.  (Quiz time:  There are two NAMED Qunari mercenaries in Origins.  Where are they, and what are their names?  Answer below.)

They could have simply given no reason at all for the change, but they did give one.  Is it a retcon?  Yeah.  Is it worse than any other appearance-based retcon?  Not really.  It means the devs would like to maintain some internal consistency with the world, is all.

(Quiz answer:  The only two named Qunari that I've seen are with Paedan and Shaevra in The Pearl.  Their names are Jarvy and Tennant--Paedan refers to them by name shortly before they attack you.  The Sten, and the Karashok and Assad you can meet in the Fade make a grand total of 5 Qunari in the whole of Origins that aren't nameless mooks.)

[Shadow Wing]

I kinda like the new qunari though, I know it breaks continuity but it does give them a more distinctive look and not just big humans...as for the others, I'm not sure yet, I don't think they have released enough images and stills for us to make that much criticism..for all we know it may look great in the final product...

[Mike Laidlaw]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
And you may have noticed that no one is claiming that Bioware DID originally envision Qunari as having horns. 

Actually we did. The horns were removed largely because of Sten being in the party.

I'm not saying we included that in the lore or what have you, because we weren't sure they would come back, but they did, so we decided to own it. I'm still pleased that the ogre > Qunari broodmother thing is in Origins, since that helps lend some credence to the whole thing.

It means the devs would like to maintain some internal consistency with the world, is all.

And we'd like to have horned Qunari without having to glue some on to Sten. If he appears again (He just might, ya know!), he won't have horns.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

(He just might, ya know!)

Tease :B

It wouldn't bother me if it changed but, in this hypothetical cameo, would he still be bronze-y colored? I forsee forum rage if that is not the case. (Which makes me want to see it changed all the more.)

I just wonder if the bronze would be gone or now one of many possible Qunari skin tones.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

And we'd like to have horned Qunari without having to glue some on to Sten.

Duck tape is superior to glue, silly.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

And we'd like to have horned Qunari without having to glue some on to Sten.

Duck tape is superior to glue, silly.

Or Bondo. Those horns would be on for lifeeee.

new Qunari.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

(He just might, ya know!)

Tease :B

It wouldn't bother me if it changed but, in this hypothetical cameo, would he still be bronze-y colored? I forsee forum rage if that is not the case. (Which makes me want to see it changed all the more.)

I just wonder if the bronze would be gone or now one of many possible Qunari skin tones.

Still in. Sten's too cool to not be bronze.

And I'm pretty much immune to forum rage. I DID, however, get to tick off a box in my anger bingo when someone called me an "ass wipe" of all things. Woo! Retro!

[Mike Laidlaw]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

The Qunari thing is kinda lame though, it'd be understandable if they had horns, but do they have to look like demons?

The screenshots and trailers hint that the Qunari might well be the one of the main antagonists in DA:2. Thus, they had to be dehumanized to reduce player qualms about hitting them.

This would seem to be at odds with giving us a second qunari companion.

An additional point: when has DA ever been squeamish about killing humans?

...or spattering their daughters with their blood... in certain specific cases.

[PsychoBlonde]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

And we'd like to have horned Qunari without having to glue some on to Sten. If he appears again (He just might, ya know!), he won't have horns.

Right, I'll go get my tranq gun and camp out on Mark Hildreth's lawn just in case.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Still in. Sten's too cool to not be bronze.

And I'm pretty much immune to forum rage. I DID, however, get to tick off a box in my anger bingo when someone called me an "ass wipe" of all things. Woo! Retro!

Yesssss. Loved that color.

Now that I'm thinking about Sten, if changes are in the works, I would like to see his hairline reflect where horns would have been, had he been born with some. Cool jaggedy hairlines are cool, and that would kinda drive home that he is super special awesome is of a species that usually has horns.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

...or spattering their daughters with their blood... in certain specific cases.

You mean you don't do that on a daily basis?