132 réponses à ce sujet

[AClockworkMelon]

Googlesaurus wrote...

AClockworkMelon wrote...

No Kaidan/Ashley. They can both die in the first game and so will be absent apart from cameos for the same reason everyone else will be absent. Joker won't be a party member for two reasons: 1.) He'll be piloting the Normandy and 2.) He is particularly fragile and not suited for combat.

Uh, you do realize that one of them has to live?

Joker's part of the ME party. At worst he's the only survivor of the Collector mission, and no, he will probably not shoot a gun anytime soon. That doesn't discount him as part of your crew. 

Yes, I realize that one of them has to live. The one that lives will have a cameo role, like in ME2.

Joker is not a party member. Assuming you've ever played an RPG before you should know that when I say "party member" I'm referring to NPCs that you can take with you as combatants. 

Modifié par AClockworkMelon, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[AClockworkMelon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Kaidan/ashley was spared for the same reason Liara was. To be in your party in ME3.

Nope. 

Again, Bioware wouldn't put that much time, energy and money into a fully integrated party member that could potentially have no chance of appearing. You can insist otherwise but ultimately it doesn't matter. You'll be here two years from now complaining that they weren't party members in ME3. If it makes you feel better you can take comfort knowing that I won't say "I told you so" when the inevitable occurs. 

[Pacifien]

Is the purpose of this thread solely to have it on record that you believe none of the ME2 party will appear as anything more than cameos just so you can say "I told you so" to anyone who disagrees with you?

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Pacifien wrote...

Is the purpose of this thread solely to have it on record that you believe none of the ME2 party will appear as anything more than cameos just so you can say "I told you so" to anyone who disagrees with you?

Kind of looks like it.

[AClockworkMelon]

yorkj86 wrote...

AClockworkMelon wrote...

Yet again: You could say the same thing about ME1.

And in case people are wondering, this thread isn't to bash Bioware or ME. I loved ME1 and I loved ME2 even more. I'm just presenting what seems to be the only logical conclusion. Apologies if this upsets you guys but not every decision can be a popular one. Bioware wanted to create tension in ME2 and the way they decided to go about doing that was by creating a suicide mission. Unfortunately that disallowed them from making certain design choices in ME3.

On the bright side you can likely expect Liara to play a major role in ME3, even if she isn't in your party. Why? Because it's possible that the reason they didn't allow Liara as a party member in ME2 was because they needed to guarantee that she'd be alive by ME3.

Not really.  No ME games preceded ME1.  Can't bait-and-switch with nothing to switch.

That was actually a typing error. I meant ME2. I'd hope that would be obvious from the context of our discussion. 

[AClockworkMelon]

Pacifien wrote...

Is the purpose of this thread solely to have it on record that you believe none of the ME2 party will appear as anything more than cameos just so you can say "I told you so" to anyone who disagrees with you?

No. I just finished ME2 for the first time recently and it was something I thought of and, being a forum, I figured it'd be OK for me to have a discussion about it here. I didn't think I was being abrasive. If I was I apologize. 

[AntiChri5]

The devs have said (in the old ME forums) that the reason Liara and Kai/Ash is not in the ME 2 squad is becaus eof their planned roles in ME 3.

[Googlesaurus]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

Yes, I realize that one of them has to live. The one that lives will have a cameo role, like in ME2.

Joker is not a party member. Assuming you've ever played an RPG before you should know that when I say "party member" I'm referring to NPCs that you can take with you as combatants. 

Either Ashley or Kaidan survive by default through ME2 because of their cameo roles, so there is the possible option of recruiting them as squadmates in ME3. Obviously Bioware could relegate them to cameo roles again, but they're not automatically put in that role because only one of them died. Liara is in the same boat. 

I wasn't aware that you specifically meant squadmates in combat. Whatever, that just leaves Liara and Ashley/Kaidan. Get off your high horse. 

Bioware can include all former party members as possible squadmates if they wanted. It would just take a lot more dedication to their "your decisions will have importance" shtick. The decision not to include them would amount to an immense copout considering that shtick. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[AClockworkMelon]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The devs have said (in the old ME forums) that the reason Liara and Kai/Ash is not in the ME 2 squad is becaus eof their planned roles in ME 3.

That's perfectly fine. But that doesn't indicate that they'll be party members. I can imagine a bunch of scenarios: Kaidan and Ashley providing reinforcement when you're in danger of being overrun on a mission, Liara providing information on an assassin and a Justicar, etc. 

[AntiChri5]

But that has nothing to do with who they are. Anyone can do that.

What makes them special? Their connection with Shepard as squadmates.

[AClockworkMelon]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Either Ashley or Kaidan survive by default through ME2 because of their cameo roles, so there is the possible option of recruiting them as squadmates in ME3.

They survive ME2, yes. But they can't both survive ME1. So Bioware would be guaranteed wasting a large amount of resources by fully integrating them as party members. Rather they'll return as cameos in ME3. That isn't to say that they couldn't have roles in the story- in fact I believe the opposite. 

I wasn't aware that you specifically meant squadmates in combat.

Then what did you think I meant? I very specifically said that I think Joker will be returning in the next game to continue piloting the Normandy. 

[Pacifien]

Well, Tali and Garrus were squadmates in ME1. You didn't even have to recruit Garrus in ME1, yet he still shows up as a squadmate in ME2. BioWare has a history of bringing back old squadmates to be recruited again while introducing even more squadmates that you can add to the bunch. Not every older squadmate might make the cut, but to say none of them will? It's just not BioWare's m.o.

[AClockworkMelon]

AntiChri5 wrote...

But that has nothing to do with who they are. Anyone can do that.
What makes them special? Their connection with Shepard as squadmates.

They aren't going to be Shepard's squadmates again. If that makes them less special somehow I'm sorry. I certainly still enjoy both of their characters despite that. 

[AntiChri5]

Stop stating speculation as fact.

Bioware is perfectly willing to include characters people may not have, do you have any idea how many people sinply missed Sten and Leliana?

[AClockworkMelon]

Pacifien wrote...

You didn't even have to recruit Garrus in ME1, yet he still shows up as a squadmate in ME2.

This isn't a good analogy. You don't have to recruit Samara, either. The difference is that Garrus is guaranteed to survive the first game while Samara has a chance of dying in the second. Regardless of whether you recruited Garrus in ME1 he's going to be alive and so he's fair game as a squadmate in the second game. 

[Pacifien]

Well, Minsc went all crazy on me in Baldur's Gate and I had to kill him, but he still shows up again in Baldur's Gate 2. BioWare can be particularly stubborn about doing what they want to do in this regard. The default ME3 story could assume everyone got out of the suicide mission alive and the experience only changes if you import an ME2 save where someone didn't. It would be a nice switch from how they did the default ME2.

[AClockworkMelon]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Bioware is perfectly willing to include characters people may not have, do you have any idea how many people sinply missed Sten and Leliana?

This is the first good point that's been made.

But no matter what you do, you can potentially get those characters in any DA playthrough. Just like I can choose not to even meet Samara in ME2. But any characters that die in ME2 will be completely excluded from import ME3 playthroughs and thus it'd be a large potential waste of resources to include them as fully integrated party members.

[AntiChri5]

The only squadmates in Origins you cannot immediately get rid of are Dog and Alistair.

[Googlesaurus]

[quote]AClockworkMelon wrote...

Either Ashley or Kaidan survive by default through ME2 because of their cameo roles, so there is the possible option of recruiting them as squadmates in ME3.[/quote]
They survive ME2, yes. But they can't both survive ME1. So Bioware would be guaranteed wasting a large amount of resources by fully integrating them as party members. Rather they'll return as cameos in ME3. That isn't to say that they couldn't have roles in the story- in fact I believe the opposite.[/quote]

I said that 15+ posts ago. That guarantees that one of them will be around for ME3, even for players who don't import from ME1 --> ME2 --> ME3. 

[quote]A ClockworkMelon...

Then what did you think I meant? I very specifically said that I think Joker will be returning in the next game to continue piloting the Normandy. 

[/quote]

The entire crew.

Why are you so insistent on this idea? It's a terrible idea. 

[AClockworkMelon]

Pacifien wrote...

Well, Minsc went all crazy on me in Baldur's Gate and I had to kill him, but he still shows up again in Baldur's Gate 2.

I don't think the amount of resources required to include characters in Baldur's Gate is comparable to the amount required to include them in a game like ME3. 

The default ME3 story could assume everyone got out of the suicide mission alive and the experience only changes if you import an ME2 save where someone didn't.

While I think it's unlikely that they'll all survive the suicide mission in the default story (and I think you do too, I realize that you were merely presenting this as an example), even if that's what happened I think those characters will simply appear as cameos. Otherwise Bioware will be cheating players out of content. 

People who suffered casualties will be missing out on that content. And not a small amount of content such as Conrad's reappearance in ME2, but a LOT of content: A fully integrated party member.

[Collider]

I think this is pretty obvious.

Most people had most if not all of their squad survive.

It therefore would not be a waste of time.



It seems more of a waste of time to not include them.

[AClockworkMelon]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The only squadmates in Origins you cannot immediately get rid of are Dog and Alistair.

Thank you, I'm aware. You're saying it as if it strengthens your position, but it doesn't. Yet again, all those characters are available in every potential playthrough. 

Googlesaurus wrote...

That guarantees that one of them will be around for ME3, even for players who don't import from ME1 --> ME2 --> ME3.

Yes, as cameos, for reasons I and others have already adequately explained. 

Why are you so insistent on this idea? It's a terrible idea.

You're acting as if it's my idea. If I'm correct, and I think it only logical that I am in this case, it's Bioware's idea. I, for one, would like to see Tali as a party member in ME3 and was upset when I first thought of the implications of the suicide mission but I know that Bioware will likely have her as a cameo that I can use to reaffirm my PC's romance with and if it's not to my satisfaction there'll be another party full of potential LIs for me to choose from.