132 réponses à ce sujet

[AClockworkMelon]

Evelinessa wrote...

I would also like to add that it's harder to kill most of your squadmates then it is to save them all. And BioWare wouldn't have to come up with a new character for every one that died. All they need is 4-6 new characters and people would be set for a new squad.

I don't think BW would allow people to potentially miss that much content in ME3 based on decisions that they made at the end of an entirely different game. Resources spent to include content in one place is resources not spent including content elsewhere. We know that there are limits otherwise the entire ME1 party would have carried to 2 and we'd have twice as many Normandy conversations as we do now, etc, even though those are both things that it seems everyone wanted. 

I've basically laid out my case so there's not a whole lot more for me to add. I'm with you guys in that I hope we get to have some of our ME2 party members in ME3 because I liked them all, including Mordin, who I didn't think I'd like when I met him for the first time on Omega. Now he's one of my favorites. 

Modifié par AClockworkMelon, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[Evelinessa]

Also I read somewhere that BioWare plans to make the consequences really play out in ME3 in drastic ways. That can include having squadmates return as long as they are alive in your save.

[Googlesaurus]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

I can only assume then that you're ignoring everything that's been said in the thread.

Please quote them.

AClockworkMelon said...

The game will have continuity and our decisions will carry over. If Jack dies in ME2 I won't see her in ME3. If she survives I'll likely see her. Just like I saw Kaidan in ME2.

The continuity carryover to ME2 was meaningless because it had no relevant impact on the storyline. It didn't matter if you saved Ashley or Kaidan because you only got a cameo appearance. One which was both hilarious and sad, considering that they were written out-of-character compared to ME1 and both characters repeated the exact same dialogue. Wrex's appearance was nice but it had no effect on your loyalty missions or anything else. Other characters like Rana and Fist had small pointless appearances. 

AClockworkMelon said...

I think you're reading too much into what I said. I was hoping to have Tali as a party member in ME3 and I was upset when I logically concluded that I wouldn't. I didn't shed any tears and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I'm still going to buy and likely enjoy ME3. I /hope/ that Tali is a party member in ME3 because that'd be seriously awesome. 

It's still rather odd to bring that up. But I'd like to have Tali back too. I don't see why Bioware wouldn't back them back as potential squadmates unless they don't intend to deliver on their promise. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[AClockworkMelon]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Please quote them.

AClockworkMelon wrote...
 Right?

Because they can all potentially die at the end of ME2 and it'd be a waste of resources to create fully integrated party members with banter, Normandy hangouts and conversations, etc, if it all might go to waste. 

So my guess is that you won't see Tali, Garrus, Grunt, Jack, etc, as party members in ME3. You'll just get cameo glimpses a la Kaidan/Ashley/Wrex. 

Liara is a possibility, though I wouldn't particularly like that because it'll screw over everyone who chose anyone else as their LI. 

The continuity carryover to ME2 was meaningless because it had no relevant impact on the storyline. It didn't matter if you saved Ashley or Kaidan because you only got a cameo appearance.

Why do you think things will be different in ME3?

It's still rather odd to bring that up.

To show that if I could have my way I would have things be the way you guys want it to be. I don't /want/ none of the ME2 squaddies to carry over, but I think it's very likely that that's what's going to happen.

I don't see why Bioware wouldn't back them back as potential squadmates unless they don't intend to deliver on their promise. 

What do you mean by "back them as potential squadmates"? In what way did they back Tali as a potential squadmate any more than they backed Jack as one? Or then Kaidan as one? And if they backed them all equally as potential squadmates, then why did Kaidan have only a tiny cameo in ME2? I think the reason why is because BW has to balance how much time and resources they have with an attempt to create ongoing consequences for our actions. In a dream world there'd be a hundred potential squadmates for us to go around recruiting, all with fully voiced conversations, loyalty quests, etc, but that isn't the reality. 

Modifié par AClockworkMelon, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[AntiChri5]

Why do you think things will be different in ME3?

Because BioWare said it would be?

[mander83]

Or then Kaidan as one? And if they backed them all equally as potential squadmates, then why did Kaidan have only a tiny cameo in ME2 if not because he could have potentially died in the previous game?

I always assumed because they wanted to be 100% sure that Kaidan/Ashley would make it to ME3. If he had been a squadmate, he could have died. He might not be there. For whatever reason they want him (or her) back in ME3. Perhaps they are more crucial to the final plot than ME2 squadmates. 

I see the ME2 squadmates as perhaps not essential to defeating the Reapers. A "you can do it without them (if you let them die) but it sure would be nice to have them" type of thing. 

[Aurica]

Evelinessa wrote...

Also I read somewhere that BioWare plans to make the consequences really play out in ME3 in drastic ways. That can include having squadmates return as long as they are alive in your save.

I don't see why Bioware would put in the time & resources to do something that will not be experienced by all the different shephards out there.   The only possibilities I can think of are:

1. Everyone who survived the suicide mission becomes Cameos and no more

2. Everyone who survives the suicide mission are killed off and it will be revealed in a lame email or told by another
    NPC

3. Everyone who gets killed are 'miraculously' brought back to life by the very same Lazarus Project that returned
    Shephard to life.

4.  Actually making the consequences stick.  Though this option imo is the most unlikely. 

[davidshooter]

The Virmire survivor will be brought back as a squadmate in ME3 in the same technical way that the game facilitates male and female Sheps - same animations, different models, different voice actors along with some minor tweaking. As for the other ME2 squadmates, I predict e-mails and cameos. Bioware doesn't have the time or resources to bring back any squadmates - in a meaningful way - that could be dead in another game as much as I'd like to believe otherwise.

How you can expect to please you fans when you have 2 games with 6 and then 12 squadmates with only one person definitely alive in all games is beyond me - hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised (I was with Shadowbroker) but I just don't see any way out of this that doesn't cost more money than Bioware has. I hope I'm wrong but after seeing what happened to "choices" in ME2 I'm worried.

Modifié par davidshooter, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[AntiChri5]

Do you know how much money BioWare has?

Do you know how much it costs to include a squadmate?

[Googlesaurus]

AClockworkMelon wrote...
 Right?

Because they can all potentially die at the end of ME2 and it'd be a waste of resources to create fully integrated party members with banter, Normandy hangouts and conversations, etc, if it all might go to waste. 

So my guess is that you won't see Tali, Garrus, Grunt, Jack, etc, as party members in ME3. You'll just get cameo glimpses a la Kaidan/Ashley/Wrex. 

Liara is a possibility, though I wouldn't particularly like that because it'll screw over everyone who chose anyone else as their LI. 

The first sentence is not a good reason at all considering that most people will have games where all of their characters survived the suicide mission, not to mention that players could import multiple games with various endings. If anything Bioware would reduce ME2 characters to cameos for new players who don't intend to play ME1 or ME2. They would not do it because a small portion of players utterly failed the last mission. 

It's a greater waste of resources to create brand-new characters. They would have to get new voice actors, make new character designs, etc. They would have to write more convoluted storylines to justify everything. 

AClockworkMelon wrote...

Why do you think things will be different in ME3?

I don't. I have a different idea why ME2 characters would be restrained to "Hi, remember me?" moments.

AClockworkMelon wrote...

To show that if I could have my way I would have things be the way you guys want it to be. I don't /want/ none of the ME2 squaddies to carry over, but I think it's very likely that that's what's going to happen.

I wouldn't want all of them to immediately carry over (not even my favorites). But there are characters that are primed to play important roles in ME3, and sacrificing them for the sake of easing newbie gamers into the game seems wrong.  

AClockworkMelon wrote...

What do you mean by "back them as potential squadmates"? In what way did they back Tali as a potential squadmate any more than they backed Jack as one? Or then Kaidan as one? And if they backed them all equally as potential squadmates, then why did Kaidan have only a tiny cameo in ME2? I think the reason why is because BW has to balance how much time and resources they have with an attempt to create ongoing consequences for our actions. In a dream world there'd be a hundred potential squadmates for us to go around recruiting, all with fully voiced conversations, loyalty quests, etc, but that isn't the reality. 

"Bring them back".

Kaidan's tiny cameo meant nothing except to point out that he was alive and would stay alive for ME3. It had nothing to do with the current storyline. There are only a few characters that possess the potential to be real factors in the final game because of their roles:

Tali
Legion
Mordin 
Liara
Wrex
possibly Grunt

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:43 .

[davidshooter]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Do you know how much money BioWare has?
Do you know how much it costs to include a squadmate?

Bioware has as much money as EA gives them.  A fully voiced main character is expensive and time consuming  in today's video game world of tight bugets and aggressive release dates, and is not likely if said character will be totally absent from some games.  Mass Effect 2 Sold well considering..... but is nowhere near the top of best selling games.  I just don't think ME3 will be given the resources some are hoping for. As I said, I hope I'm wrong but...........

Modifié par davidshooter, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[AClockworkMelon]

Googlesaurus wrote...

The first sentence is not a good reason at all considering that most people will have games where all of their characters survived the suicide mission

I don't know how true this is. People on the BW forums are the minority of ME players. Discussing the game with my friends one of our conversations was "which of your characters died?"

It's a greater waste of resources to create brand-new characters.

Everyone who plays ME3 would experience that content. It wouldn't go to waste. 

Kaidan's tiny cameo meant nothing except to point out that he was alive and would stay alive for ME3

I am positive that Kaidan will be alive in ME3.

Modifié par AClockworkMelon, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:54 .

[AClockworkMelon]

yorkj86 wrote...

ME2 squadmates as cameos doesn't have to mean what effectively became of Kaidan, Ashley and Wrex, in ME2.  They could all contribute in some small way to Shepard's efforts, without being proper squadmates.

This is what I hope happens (assuming they can't be party members as I'd prefer that).

[davidshooter]

Googlesaurus wrote.... 

It's a greater waste of resources to create brand-new characters. They would have to get new voice actors, make new character designs, etc. They would have to write more convoluted storylines to justify everything. 

This is false. When one considers that a return of a potentially dead squadmate is going to cost "in addition to" whatever the new placeholder character is to those who have the original character dead.  Bioware is not going to create and voice a dozen characters in addition to those that will be needed if most of your ME2 squad is dead - money is tight in today's gaming world.

Modifié par davidshooter, 05 novembre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Collider]

The majority of players had most of their squad survive. The minority of players had most of their squad die. It's very simple. To cater to those who had most of the squad mates die would be catering to the minority.

[Googlesaurus]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

I don't know how true this is. People on the BW forums are the minority of ME players. Discussing the game with my friends one of our conversations was "which of your characters died?"

I assume that the majority of gamers will import games that had a successful suicide mission. Of course people will import games covering the full spectrum of consequences. I feel that cameos will occur primarily so new gamers won't need to import characters to win, not because characters died in some players' games. 

AClockworkMelon wrote...

Everyone who plays ME3 would experience that content. It wouldn't go to waste.

It would still cost more for all the above reasons. I do agree with you though, and that's another reason why I don't like believing that this will happen (even though it probably will). 

AClockworkMelon wrote...

I am positive that Kaidan will be alive in ME3.

They've admitted as much.

davidshooter wrote...

This is false. When one considers that a return of a potentially dead squadmate is going to cost "in addition to" whatever the new placeholder character is to those who have the original character dead. Bioware is not going to create and voice a dozen characters in addition to those that will be needed if most of your ME2 squad is dead.

So "new character + old character" > "new character". How does that disprove my point? 

Most of the ME2 characters are not relevant enough to warrant more than a cameo anyway. But they could contribute something important to the overall story beyond letting us know they exist. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

 Right, here is my problem with this theory people are calling out. It would be incredibly bad story writing on bioware's part. Why? Because a lot of these squadmates don't really have a valid enough reason to leave Shepard at time like this.

Now say that you were right and the bioware dev's took a giant dump on all of the characters they created and can be fleshed out even more on ME3, to make them all cameos with only a couple of lines each. What would it look like?

Lets start with the obvious ones first, garrus and tali. 

Shepard: Hey Garrus, the reapers are reaping in and they are about to reap havoc on every single living sapient in the galaxy. Will you help me defeat them?
Garrus: Sorry, I have to go tend to my dying mother and try to convince my sister to stop ****ing at me constantly while giant cthulu looking space machines destroys the galaxy. Also I have now become the president of the turians. Good luck Shepard!

Tali-more or less the same deal as garrus.
Mordin, there may be some reason why he might become a cameo, but to have him not be on the normandy seems kind of odd. Mordin seemed pretty hell bent and loyal enough to help Shepard defeat the collectors so I'd assume he would be sticking around for the final battle as well.
Thane- Assuming he doesn't die from his disease he'll probably stick with Shepard till the very end.
Jacob & Miranda- Miranda pretty much made it clear that shes there for Shepard and the Normandy until the very end. Jacob on the other hand, I'm not so sure.

Jack-
Shepard: Hey Jack where are you going?
Jack: I want to be a space pirate even though there is a looming threat of reapers going on a rampage to kill every living creature in the galaxy. Bye [censored]!

As for grunt....he does seem loyal. But I might see why he would have to leave the normandy to help his clan back on tuchanka.

Legion- There is pretty much no reason for him to leave whatsoever. He spent nearly two years trying to find shepard. To have him leave so suddenly for some top secret special mission that he came up on his own would be a bit ridiculous.

As for Kasumi and Zaeed. I'm a bit up in the air with those two. They may or may not be back in the squad in ME3.

[davidshooter]

Googlesaurus wrote...

davidshooter wrote...

This is false. When one considers that a return of a potentially dead squadmate is going to cost "in addition to" whatever the new placeholder character is to those who have the original character dead. Bioware is not going to create and voice a dozen characters in addition to those that will be needed if most of your ME2 squad is dead.

So "new character + old character" > "new character". How does that disprove my point? 

Most of the ME2 characters are not relevant enough to warrant more than a cameo anyway. But they could contribute something important to the overall story beyond letting us know they exist. 

Creating a new character for some "in addiion to" recreating an old charcter for others is not, and never will be, cheaper than a new character for everybody.  I can't think of any recent game that has invested in a character - as major as a ME2 squadmate - that would only appear in some games.  Every ME2 squadmate can be dead - each one that is created and voiced for ME3 is a redundancy - I just don't see this getting past the EA financing dept.

Modifié par davidshooter, 05 novembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[GracefulChicken]

My 2 cents: I've liked most characters in the ME series (and the ones I hated, I hated in a way that made me feel more immesered in the game, if that makes sense. I didnt want them removed, even if I hated them, because I feel a strong dislike for a character is a sign that it's written well, except Jacob), so if they all return, I'd be fine with that. If only some return, thats cool too. And I'd still buy ME3 if there were totally new characters, because I want to see who they are, and learn their personalitys and what role they play in the Reaper war. Personally, I think there will be some characters returning, but I highly doubt they all will. I actually hope theres atleast 3 or 4 totally new squaddies so I can enjoy learning about a totally new character. Thats alot of what made ME2 fun for me (I actually really like recruiting all these goons). It all rides on how they work it into the story. It seems like we have the best of the best anyways (except a couple people, like Zaeed who could be trumped for someone "better," in terms of their status among a certain group in this case Mercs), so I think it'd be interesting to see what BW would come up with. I've spent too many hours in ME1+2 to just not check out 3 because I dont agree with the characters included, honestly. I think I'll be satified no matter what happens, really. I know Im buying ME3 regardless.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

If we had a new group of squadmates I say that they are replaced with batarian counterparts of all the squadmates.



One would have a scouter. The other would have a quarian mask. The other would be a biotic. The other would pretend its a geth. The other one would act like a crazy salarian scientist.



You get the idea.

[AdmiralCheez]

This all-or-none approach the majority of folks here seem to be taking is ridiculous. What I think will probably happen is that a few survivors will be stuck with cameos (like Zaeed, Kasumi, and perhaps Samara or Thane) since they'd signed up for a single mission anyway, while others (Garrus and Tali, maybe Miranda) feel obliged to stick around, and will therefore be squad members. So yes, some fans are satisfied while others feel they got cheated, but at least it can be explained within the story without claiming the wizards did it, and hey! We're striking a nice balance between quality and budget, too! Hopefully, the people stuck with cameos get a bigger role than one stinking conversation and an email, but it's up to the developers, not me.



What I also find odd is that you all seem to be ignoring the people that DIDN'T play ME1 or 2. What about them? What will their squads look like? Assuming everyone lived and giving them a full compliment seems silly, as it offers little reward for those of us that spent hours making sure the whole team survived, but we don't want to give them the short end of the stick, either. I expect there to be a list of members that would have "made it" and "not made it" for those guys. For example, Thane and Mordin are close to death anyway, so they may not appear in the quick-start version, and the new player misses out on a squad member and a cameo (hypothetically speaking), while Garrus (we're saying Garrus because he's pretty much a staple at this point, like him or not) is assumed to be alive. Or it could depend on how you set up your new file (male vs. female, history, psych profile) or just be completely random. Either way, they'd get a mix of benefits and losses that overall don't detract too much from the game. I mean, hey, a lot of people never played ME1, so they never even met Wrex, and just as many never bothered with Zaeed and Kasumi's DLC.



Anyway, I should add that I didn't feel too let down when my decisions from ME1 didn't carry much weight in ME2, since it wasn't the final battle anyway. It was a middle chapter, one that brought in new characters and information, allowing you to tweak your odds that much more for the coming finale. Mind you, I was still quite miffed that many of my previous actions seemed trivial, but it's not like I seriously needed to bust out the rachni at that point in time.



Whatever Bioware decides to do, I shall watch with great interest. This sort of thing hasn't been done before (to my knowledge), and seeing how well they handle the massive amount of variability that will be coming in from imported saves will be, at the very least, entertaining.

[CalJones]

Like I said in the Garrus thread, the writers seem to have deliberately given many squadmates no reason to return to their old lives.

Garrus - flunked the Spectre training (and C-Sec if he went back to it) then had his entire merc team killed on Omega. Aside from the dying mother (who his sister is tending to), he has no reason to leave Shepard.

Tali - father is dead, and may feel agrieved at her treatment by the flotilla. She may even have been exiled. Either way, she's Tali vas Normandy now, which suggest to me that she'll be back.

Miranda & Jacob - if you did what TIM asked, then they'll stay on as Cerberus employees. If you gave him the finger, then they'll both agree that blowing the Collector Base was the best idea and Miranda even resigned. So likelihood is they'll also stay.

Grunt - he knows no other life, at this point, and Shepard is his battlemaster. Chances are he'll stay.

Jack - this one is more sketchy. I'd imagine she'd have reason to stay if romanced, but less so if not. especially if you gave TIM the collector base.

Thane - again, if you romanced him, I imagine he'd stick with Shepard for the time he has left. Since he has little experience of friendship, he might also stick with the Normandy anyway in his attempt to make the universe a brighter place before he dies. Equally, he could be dead by the time ME3 rolls around, or he could return to his son (though relations are messed up enough that I don't think that'll happen). I tend to think we'll see him again.

Mordin - life expectancy is the only thing going against him. Other than that I can't see him leaving. He wants to make the most of his time and what better way than fighting reapers?

Samara - on the one hand, she has no oath to continue, but with Morinth taken care of, she may decide to stay.

Legion - a unique platform designed to operate on its own. No need for him/them to go rushing back to geth space, then. Can't really see a reason for Legion not to stay, at this point.

Zaeed/Kasumi - least likely to return, IMHO. Zaeed's a merc - he'll always have other jobs - plus his nearing retirement. However, if you read his retirement plans on the terminal in LotSB, it's feasible he may decide sticking with Shepard is good enough option. Kasumi's in a similar position - she'll always have other jobs. Then again she could also stay as she seems rather smitten with Jacob.