33 réponses à ce sujet

[HoonDing]

Seagloom wrote...

His implied rape of Imoen alone is enough to make me want to kill him with extreme prejudice. If Saemon is pond scum, than Irenicus is bile.

Interesting. Where did you get that impression from? It seemed to me that he mostly lobotomized Imoen.

Modifié par virumor, 09 novembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[igneous.sponge]

virumor wrote...

Interesting. Where did you get that impression from? It seemed to me that he mostly lobotomized Imoen.

Definitely a case of mind rape... although, I'm not sure Irenicus would be interested in a physical assault. He doesn't seem the type, given the dialogue with the captive dryads and various subtext.

"We are supposed to instill emotion, but he is barren inside. I am not sure what he expects."

From what I've been told, the Imoen Romance mod has a different take on it. [ / Off-topic. ]

Modifié par igneous.sponge, 09 novembre 2010 - 11:28 .

[Seagloom]

igneous.sponge wrote...

Definitely a case of mind rape... although, I'm not sure Irenicus would be interested in a physical assault. He doesn't seem the type, given the dialogue with the captive dryads and various subtext.

"We are supposed to instill emotion, but he is barren inside. I am not sure what he expects."

From what I've been told, the Imoen Romance mod has a different take on it. [ / Off-topic. ]

That line still implies he not only considered it, but *tried* it. How would the dryad come to that conclusion otherwise? That and the whole concubine line.

virumor wrote...

Interesting. Where did you get that impression from? It seemed to me that he mostly lobotomized Imoen.

From the same dialogue sponge referenced in the post preceding mine. When speaking to the dryads initially one of them mentions their roles as concubines for Irenicus. Although they do say he seems to derive no pleasure and that he is "barren inside", the brief dialogue with them still implies Irenius attempted sex. Later on when Imoen triggers a conversation with them it goes like this:

Dryad A - "We are his possessions."
Dryad B - "His servants."
Dryad C - "His concubines. Please help us to escape!"

Later when Imoen's presence triggers a second conversation with them: "I used to dream, but he doesn't. Your charms don't work on him anymore, do they?"

Dryad - "How do you know of this? He has touched you as we, hasn't he? Irenicus searches for something he cannot find, and he looks within those that have no more idea than he."

To me that, and another hint or two implied more than mind rape. The above was the clearest indication though. I am not interested in debating this. It was the impression I walked away with, and nothing short of whoever wrote Imoen coming in here to disprove it will sway me. I argued over this way too many times in the past to count.

Imoen is a complex character, with much of her experiences and feelings only hinted at. The game is blunt at telling us she went through intense physical and mental torture, but dodges the above issue and what seems to be unrequited love for Charname. I think that comes down to BioWare not wanting to ruffle any feathers by openly confronting too controversial content in a game; which I do not blame them for.

Modifié par Seagloom, 09 novembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[igneous.sponge]

Sorry, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, either. And I completely agree with you about the quote I reproduced above. (I had actually meant to demonstrate that since Irenicus was 'barren inside' and had evidently been down in that dungeon quite a long time, he may simply have been well past the point of even caring about such things by the time the party was captured.)

I also agree with you that the writers dodged the issues surrounding the torture the PC and Imoen suffer, in-game. The trauma they endured is barely acknowledged, and not at all in the case of the PC. This is a very serious omission, but unfortunately such is often the case in fiction.

But I will not ramble any further. I, too, simply came away with a different impression.

Modifié par igneous.sponge, 09 novembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Seagloom]

No worries. No feathers were ruffled, so no need to apologize for expressing your opinion. I must have come off more strongly than I wanted in my response to you. Maybe it was the asterisks around the word 'tried'. It is not so much a sore point as a discussion I had way too many times to feel like retreading it here. Plus, I want to avoid derailing the thread.

Modifié par Seagloom, 09 novembre 2010 - 02:47 .

[Flamedance]

Must say i always thought he had raped Imoen, for much the same reasons Seagloom gave. The dialogue with the dryads seems to clearly indicate that.

About the character of Irenicus, i never much liked him. To me, Sarevok always was far more interesting. For one, Sarevok had reasons for being what he was. People don't always shape their own destiny and in many ways Sarevok was a victim of the environment he grew up in. Besides: in a way i almost respected Sarevok. Whatever he was, he sure wasn't a coward. While Irenicus, well...in the end he turned out to be a sniveling coward, imo.



Having said that: the mod some people referred to that allows you to redeem Irenicus (The Longer Road), actually is very good.

[The Potty 1]

I always had the impression Irenecus raped Imoen, from the exact conversation quoted by Seagloom.

[HoonDing]

It makes sense from that dialogue, I agree. I didn't remember that piece of dialogue at all, though... then again of all the times I played BG2 I only took Imoen along through the opening dungeon twice so that may explain it.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Hmmm... I never really thought much of the dryad conversation before, mostly because I'm trying to blaze through the opening dungeon. It's difficult to speculate however. It is possible that Imoen was raped, but I can't derive that from just that conversation. The things Irenicus was doing in his little dungeon, cloning and growing body parts of his former love are quite heinous however. He certainly is capable.



Irenicus differs from Sarevok because he is calculating and cold. Sarevok is a lunatic, and quite mad in his quest, but even so there is a human side to him(his companions for example). In that manner, Sarevok is redeemable, Irenicus is not. But from a role play circumstance, I don't think that either would earn the "forgiveness" of Gorion's ward.



I killed Saemon plenty of times when I first played SoA, I stopped killing him after it became a pointless chore. The game makes it a point to keep him alive, just like Imoen. Forced plot devices that cannot be dictated.



In any case, as for the silver sword and the Githyanki, I think there really is no grey area. In order to legally regain control of their sword from a paladin, they'd have to go to court. There are several questions a paladin and the nation state must ask first. How does a paladin know it is their sword? Are the Githyanki enemies of the people of Amn? There are probably several more questions which a paladin must answer to. One does not give a bomb to a terrorist just because the terrorist claimed it is their bomb. A sword is a weapon, it is not some item of value, it is a tool used to kill. Conclusively I'm sure followers of Helm and other people of the Lawful alignment would seek the advice of some kind of court before giving the weapon back to the Githyanki. And if the Githyanki disagree? Use of force is necessary.