74 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

ahwas.........you are just.......so....so wrong.

[Darc_Requiem]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Jacob+Geth Pulse Shotgun+M5 Phalanx+Inferno Ammo+Heavy Barrier=Win.

[lazuli]

achwas wrote...

I play a Vanguard because I played one in ME-1. I dislike "Charge" mostly because its not very useful against the tougher mobs in the game, who have shields barriers or are simply immune to it like Praetorians. Against groups of opponents it disabeles one targets, a few more if they are conveniently spaced and Area-effect was actually skilled. Which usually leaves you, with CD in the middle of a bunch of other trigger-happy guys. you forfeit control over the fight for a a short moment of glory. I don't care for that.

On the other hand Shockwave cuts a broad swath through enemy groups, ignores cover, does damage and knocks people about, out of cover and leaving them prone. Useful points each of them, in my book.. Nevermind it removing cover permanently and exploding hazardous objects, usually in the midst of  enemy formations. All of it in one go, no combo required

We have very different views on this game.  It's refreshing.  I would recommend checking out the strategy forum and looking at the Vanguard threads.  Charge is very powerful.  I don't think you're giving it enough credit.

Here are some threads to consider perusing.

Vanguard on Hardcore/Insanity
The Ultimate Vanguard
Vanguard Tips and Tricks

lizzbee wrote...

I just finished my "Jacob playthrough" on Veteran, and I really don't understand how anyone finds him useful.  This Shep was a Sentinel, and even though "Pull" is touted as a great combo power, I really didn't get that much use out of it. 

Back when I thought Jacob sucked, I did a similar playthrough to give myself a challenge.  It wasn't challenging at all.  Jacob is an effective squadmate.  Just because he doesn't have a "press this button to strip defenses" power doesn't mean he isn't viable on harder difficulties.

I'm surprised that you didn't get much use out of Pull with Shepard as a Sentinel.  If you want to do Warp explosions as a Sentinel, you'll need Pull on a squadmate.  However, if you were going the Assault Sentinel route, Pull might not be as appealing.  In either case, his Squad Incendiary Ammo should come in handy for early or late game, depending on your build.

Modifié par lazuli, 08 novembre 2010 - 05:30 .

[lizzbee]

Darc_Requiem wrote...

I said it before and I'll say it again. Jacob+Geth Pulse Shotgun+M5 Phalanx+Inferno Ammo+Heavy Barrier=Win.

OTOH, Jacob + Geth Pulse Shotgun + M5 Phalanx + Squad Incendiary Ammo + Improved Barrier = YMIR mech fodder and a waste of space on the suicide mission

[lizzbee]

lazuli wrote...

Back when I thought Jacob sucked, I did a similar playthrough to give myself a challenge.  It wasn't challenging at all.  Jacob is an effective squadmate.  Just because he doesn't have a "press this button to strip defenses" power doesn't mean he isn't viable on harder difficulties.

I'm surprised that you didn't get much use out of Pull with Shepard as a Sentinel.  If you want to do Warp explosions as a Sentinel, you'll need Pull on a squadmate.  However, if you were going the Assault Sentinel route, Pull might not be as appealing.  In either case, his Squad Incendiary Ammo should come in handy for early or late game, depending on your build.

There aren't enough pure red enemies in the game to make Pull worthwhile, at least not after the early levels.  I found it useful on Freedom's Progress and during Mordin and Garrus' recruitment missions, but after that it didn't do much for me.  By the time I'd reached the Collector ship, I had Thane pretty well leveled up with Throw, and Shep had Throw Field with nearly instant recharge (one sniper shot between Throws), so I spent more time throwing red enemies than waiting for Jacob's unenhanced Pull to recharge just so I could try to set up a warp explosion.  Also, I'd chosen Warp Ammo as my bonus power, so I didn't really need Squad Incendiary Ammo at all.  Shockwave's a billion times better against husks than Pull is, the same way Throw works like a charm against them.  I'm just imagining how hard the Reaper ship would have been if I hadn't decided to substitute Jack at the last minute.  Double heavy warp with Thane is a thing of beauty against Harbinger and barrier-protected Collectors.  Not much use for Pull there either.

We'll see how he is with my new Adept Shep, but I'm not hopeful.

Modifié par lizzbee, 08 novembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[lazuli]

lizzbee wrote...

Darc_Requiem wrote...

I said it before and I'll say it again. Jacob+Geth Pulse Shotgun+M5 Phalanx+Inferno Ammo+Heavy Barrier=Win.

OTOH, Jacob + Geth Pulse Shotgun + M5 Phalanx + Squad Incendiary Ammo + Improved Barrier = YMIR mech fodder and a waste of space on the suicide mission

All squadmates will have trouble with YMIRs if you're not managing them correctly.  If you have a squadmate equipped with a shotgun, you should understand that your squadmate will move into close combat.  Against an YMIR, this is typically not a good idea.  Flag your squadmates to avoid this problem.

Also, certain squadmates excel in certain situations.  Thane won't do you much good against geth, and Tali won't be very helpful against Collectors.  Part of what makes ME2 great is that you don't have to get married to a particular team.  You can pick and choose your companions based on the mission at hand.  These decisions become increasinly more important as you bump up the difficulty.

[Sursion]

Jacob is useful until you get a third squad mate.

[Kurt M.]

achwas wrote...

I play a Vanguard because I played one in ME-1. I dislike "Charge" mostly because its not very useful against the tougher mobs in the game, who have shields barriers or are simply immune to it like Praetorians. Against groups of opponents it disabeles one targets, a few more if they are conveniently spaced and Area-effect was actually skilled. Which usually leaves you, with CD in the middle of a bunch of other trigger-happy guys. you forfeit control over the fight for a a short moment of glory. I don't care for that.

You don't know how to use Charge. Period.

And yeah, it's not very useful against the tougher enemies of the game. Right, right...

Modifié par Gladiador2, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[lizzbee]

lazuli wrote...

All squadmates will have trouble with YMIRs if you're not managing them correctly.  If you have a squadmate equipped with a shotgun, you should understand that your squadmate will move into close combat.  Against an YMIR, this is typically not a good idea.  Flag your squadmates to avoid this problem.

Also, certain squadmates excel in certain situations.  Thane won't do you much good against geth, and Tali won't be very helpful against Collectors.  Part of what makes ME2 great is that you don't have to get married to a particular team.  You can pick and choose your companions based on the mission at hand.  These decisions become increasinly more important as you bump up the difficulty.

Most squadmates know how to seek cover correctly.  I actually found Tali quite useful against the Collectors in my Tali playthrough (veteran also)-- her drones kept Harbinger off Shep long enough to let Shep dispose of them with Thane's help.  I find Thane quite useful against the geth as well-- Heavy Warp against an unshielded geth is almost instant death, and he's uncanny with a sniper rifle.  He also knows how to stay in cover and seems to be programmed to directly protect Shep.  Considering my main requirement of squadmates is to keep enemies off while Shep brings the firepower, and to stay alive, I've found just about all of them do it adequately, though Miranda and Jack take a fair amount of dirt naps.

Good luck trying to manage Jacob!  Maybe my Jacob's bugged, but whenever I point him to cover, he never seems to end up in the spot the little arrow points to.  He'll end up beside it, or in front of it, or sometimes on top of it.  And in an area with virtually no cover and YMIR mechs, well...  And he won't share cover either.  He's bumped my Shep out of it more than once.

Modifié par lizzbee, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[lazuli]

lizzbee wrote...
Good luck trying to manage Jacob! 

So far as we can tell, squadmate AI, at least in terms of cover and placement, depends on the weapon equipped, not the character wielding the weapon.

[ashwind]

Sursion wrote...

Jacob is useful until you get a third squad mate.

For me, Jacob is useful until I do his loyalty mission. After he gets barrier... 

Is like:
Shep: Ok, Miri, J, I am going to charge those 4 collectors, be ready to do a warplotion when I give the signal.
Shepard Charges!
Jacob: Nothing can hurt me now! (Squad power usage - manual )
Shepard: Oh Shiiiiiiiiiit!

:pinched:

[Prince of Kemet]

I'd take Jacob over the soulless homunculus ANY day of the week.

[lazuli]

ashwind wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Jacob is useful until you get a third squad mate.

For me, Jacob is useful until I do his loyalty mission. After he gets barrier... 

Is like:
Shep: Ok, Miri, J, I am going to charge those 4 collectors, be ready to do a warplotion when I give the signal.
Shepard Charges!
Jacob: Nothing can hurt me now! (Squad power usage - manual )
Shepard: Oh Shiiiiiiiiiit!

:pinched:

Thankfully, we have Lair of the Shadow Broker to remove all points from Barrier.  It's an imperfect solution, but better than nothing.

[ashwind]

lazuli wrote...
Thankfully, we have Lair of the Shadow Broker to remove all points from Barrier.  It's an imperfect solution, but better than nothing.

So true - but I usually do LotSB after the main campaign for extra dialogs 

[achwas]

lazuli wrote...

achwas wrote...

I play a Vanguard because I played one in ME-1. I dislike "Charge" mostly because its not very useful against the tougher mobs in the game, who have shields barriers or are simply immune to it like Praetorians. Against groups of opponents it disabeles one targets, a few more if they are conveniently spaced and Area-effect was actually skilled. Which usually leaves you, with CD in the middle of a bunch of other trigger-happy guys. you forfeit control over the fight for a a short moment of glory. I don't care for that.

On the other hand Shockwave cuts a broad swath through enemy groups, ignores cover, does damage and knocks people about, out of cover and leaving them prone. Useful points each of them, in my book.. Nevermind it removing cover permanently and exploding hazardous objects, usually in the midst of  enemy formations. All of it in one go, no combo required

We have very different views on this game.  It's refreshing.  I would recommend checking out the strategy forum and looking at the Vanguard threads.  Charge is very powerful.  I don't think you're giving it enough credit.

Here are some threads to consider perusing.

Vanguard on Hardcore/Insanity
The Ultimate Vanguard
Vanguard Tips and Tricks

Know these threads, disagree with much of the hyperbole written there - of course they are hilariously funny in their bragging and shoulder-patting in their own right. It's like a sweaty locker room full of jocks.
I massively disagree on "combo" plays, which are a saddening influence of comics and beat-'em-ups, but not a tactically sound exercise.

As for "Charge"  - the problem is not that something is powerful, its major fault is that it cannnot be gainfully employed in the game without circumstances depending entirely on random chance. And those factors are never taken into account in the formulas of how "awesomely powerful" something is

Gladiador2 wrote...
You don't know how to use Charge. Period.

And yeah, it's not very useful against the tougher enemies of the game. Right, right...

yeah, i see a video of a guy who A) has no idea of how to manage his squadmates to assist him charges into a bossmob in an area with other mobs still live, fully armed and potentially flanking him, shredding him to pieces  while - as luck has it, not actually hitting him at all - and c) attacking a mob whose attacks can be dodged by side-stepping. The main thing "Charge" does for him is refreshing his shield

How many "takes" (or rather reloads) on the vid until he pulled it off by chance ? How many extra talent-points padded/inserted via Gibbed ? - retracted my observation about Incendiary Ammo - since his own "power bar" icon was not on which is odd in itself, I somehow excluded it from the line up....*Shame*
Nothing odd or fishy about the vid^^

Modifié par achwas, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[achwas]

lazuli wrote...

lizzbee wrote...
Good luck trying to manage Jacob! 

So far as we can tell, squadmate AI, at least in terms of cover and placement, depends on the weapon equipped, not the character wielding the weapon.

Precisely the reason why I prefer not to take people along who wield only shotguns and pistols - like Jacob or Tali. Wielding longarms usually leads to a sudden increase of tactical intelligence.

Sursion wrote...
Jacob is useful until you get a third squad mate.

that means... the entry tunnel to Omega . Meet Zaeed, never look back

Modifié par achwas, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[lizzbee]

achwas wrote...

Precisely the reason why I prefer not to take people along who wield only shotguns and pistols - like Jacob or Tali. Wielding longarms usually leads to a sudden increase of tactical intelligence.

Heh.  I had a much easier time with Tali, because her combat drone at least provided a fair amount of distraction value.  Jacob doesn't have any useful diversionary powers like that.  Pull is virtually useless most of the time unless there happens to be a ledge nearby, and unarmored and unshielded enemies.  Alas, all three are seldom present at the same time.  I don't even waste any skill points in Pull to my Sheps who have access to it.

Modifié par lizzbee, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:19 .

[lizzbee]

achwas wrote...


Nevermind he has the red glow-glyph of incendiary ammo on his weapon, which, with two downed team-mates (neither of which has Incendiary Ammo anyway) as a Vanguard he should have no possibility to employ ?

Actually, Incendiary Ammo is one of the starting Vanguard powers.  Cerberus decided to reprogram my first ManShep as a Vanguard, and he's incendiaried up the you-know-what.

[achwas]

lizzbee wrote...
Actually, Incendiary Ammo is one of the starting Vanguard powers.  Cerberus decided to reprogram my first ManShep as a Vanguard, and he's incendiaried up the you-know-what.

yeah fu**ed up there. Since I always angle for armour piercing (or Geth shield boost ) as the extra tactical power which I use constantly, it totally slipped my mind

Modifié par achwas, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[Kogaion]

in my opinion Jacob is one of those squad members that goes infront to aften and gets killed to many times for nothing ..he doesent know how to cover he doesent retreat..etc. ...i think his the suicide member of the team BUT i noticed that the shotgun users tend to do that because the game AI "knows" that a shotgun does dmg only upclose



but i have firepower DLC with geth pulse shotgun that does dmg from distance as well but the AI of squad members that use shotgund dont know that and they still go like idiots in front ..i must allways call them back ( i think Grunt is the smartest member cause he often covers ..retrets ...etc.and doesent die even with a shotgun)...still Jacob dies the most of all squad members idk why Tali lives longer maybe because she got better shields? she usualy goes in front too

[ashwind]

achwas wrote...
yeah, i see a video of a guy who A) has no idea of how to manage his squadmates to assist him charges into a bossmob in an area with other mobs still live, fully armed and potentially flanking him, shredding him to pieces  while - as luck has it, not actually hitting him at all - and c) attacking a mob whose attacks can be dodged by side-stepping. The main thing "Charge" does for him is refreshing his shield

How many "takes" (or rather reloads) on the vid until he pulled it off by chance ? How many extra talent-points padded/inserted via Gibbed ? Nevermind he has the red glow-glyph of incendiary ammo on his weapon, which, with two downed team-mates (neither of which has Incendiary Ammo anyway) as a Vanguard he should have no possibility to employ ?
Nothing odd or fishy about the vid^^

When a Vanguard charges into a bunch of mobs, squadmates are important. Maybe you do not notice but a warp bomb usually follows the charge that staggers enemies around us - stripping them of their defenses allowing squad cryo to take effect, etc.

Side stepping - lining up enemies is a way to prevent the enemies from behind to fire at you - you know, the enemies will not shot their own mates? Using an enemy as a shield is very common...

Inferno ammo after warp explotion sets nearby enemies on fire, they panic, become easy target.

There are a lot of background tactical decisions behind a Charge, it is not simply to charge shield.

I suppose not everyone enjoys Charge/Vanguard but it is addictive and I assure you that there are many players in this forum who can pull those vids off without reload (or maybe 1-2 reloads to warm up)

Edit: Which is why I dont like Jacob because him using barrier automatically messes up my plan and kill me.

Modifié par ashwind, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[achwas]

ashwind wrote...

Side stepping - lining up enemies is a way to prevent the enemies from behind to fire at you - you know, the enemies will not shot their own mates? Using an enemy as a shield is very common...

Inferno ammo after warp explotion sets nearby enemies on fire, they panic, become easy target.

There are a lot of background tactical decisions behind a Charge, it is not simply to charge shield.

I suppose no everyone enjoys Charge/Vanguard but it is addictive and I assure you that there are many players in this forum who can pull those vids off without reload (or maybe 1-2 reloads to warm up)

all of this is valid - but it cannot be consistently planned for. You charge into groups, not seeing the one guy behind the box with the shotgun = probable reload. Nevermind him being a Krogan or just that second "assuming control"
You go for a warp bomb and the warp effect hangs up on the corner of an object, foiling the bomb = probable reload.
Sidestepping and placing  your opponent into the line of fire = possible, but do you you honestly care to keep that guy alive to use him as a shield ... he is likely shooting at you himself^^ ...Probable reload

Speaking for myself,  I try to not "reload" during any mission, since it is a roleplaying game, not an FPS. Mileage of course varies.There are moments when it really shines - say in the Kasumi LM, but usually it is about "bragging rights or reload"

But to keep on the thread subject - I don't really see Jacob especially profiting Vanguards except as a decoy, Barrier or no Barrier. Any other companion has his obvious niche and "favoured" enemy, Mr Taylor does not

Modifié par achwas, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:56 .

[lazuli]

achwas wrote...

Know these threads, disagree with much of the hyperbole written there - of course they are hilariously funny in their bragging and shoulder-patting in their own right. It's like a sweaty locker room full of jocks.
I massively disagree on "combo" plays, which are a saddening influence of comics and beat-'em-ups, but
not a tactically sound exercise.

This is disrespectful and pompous.

achwas wrote...
As for "Charge"  - the problem is not that something is powerful, its major fault is that it cannnot be gainfully employed in the game without circumstances depending entirely on random chance. And those factors are never taken into account in the formulas of how "awesomely powerful" something is

With enough practice, chance has little to do with it.  I will state that Charge has the highest learning curve of any of the signature powers in the game.  Any fool with fingers can use Adrenaline Rush at least moderately effectively.  Cloak takes a little more proficiency, especially if you're willing to use it to flank.  But Charge took me a long time to understand.  I had beaten the game with every class on Insanity before I was ready to play a Charge-heavy Vanguard.

achwas wrote...
But to keep on the thread subject - I don't really see Jacob especially profiting Vanguards except as a decoy, Barrier or no Barrier. Any other companion has his obvious niche and "favoured" enemy, Mr Taylor does not

Vanguards [that use Charge] benefit from Jacob's Incendiary Ammo.  He can provide it early so that the Vanguard can put points into other powers first, like Charge and Assault Mastery.  Later on in the game, his Pull Field is excellent for a wide stagger effect, especially if a Charge goes wrong.

Edit: Formatting.

Modifié par lazuli, 08 novembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Honestly, I really hate the "I hate this squadmate because he dies a lot" because it's really a cop-out argument. Any squadmate can die easily on higher difficulties if you don't manage him/her right. Even Grunt will get ripped to shreds by the YMIR mechs or Praetorions.Thing I like about Jacob is he is one of the better "support" squadmates. He lacks defense stripping abilities, but he does good damage with the GPS, comes with Squad Incendiary (which is perfect for Caster classes who lack ammo powers and, in my opinion, the second best Squad Ammo) and pull to set of Warp bombs.

Jacob skills overlaps with a Vanguard, so I can agree, yes there his usefulness isn't quite as versatile, but for any other class, Jacob is far from useless. 

[Kronner]

That depends, as a Vanguard and Soldier I find him totally useless on NG+ playthroughs, but decent on regular playthroughs for the early squad Inferno ammo.



For other classes he is nothing special, but ok.