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It boggles me that anyone would consider Samara Paragon, or accepting of Paragons


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#1
Dean_the_Young

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Especially the assertion that Samara would have no issue against a Paragon Shepard. It confuses me. It truly, honestly, does. Especially given how many people claim to really like her.

Paragon has a number of themes that differentiate it from Renegade: mercy, kindness, sympathetic. But what it does not have in contrast to Renegade is justice or law: both sides will bend/ignore/break the law when it suits, and both can claim to be enforcing justice. The Renegade version is often fatal. The Paragon, not as often.

Where does Samara fit in on the Paragon side of things?

She has a Code, yes. A fixed, unbending, unmovable code that is more Renegade in its ruthlessness than Paragon in its mercy and non-violent justice. The code makes her Lawful. Neither Paragon or Renegade affirm or reject such.

What people point out to most, in my experience, is the assertion 'the innocent have nothing to fear from her.' Which is likely perfectly true, so long as you move 'innocent' to 'law abiding.' But how many people are innocent in the eyes of the Code? It isn't if you live a mostly good life. It isn't if you're overall a good person, a good father, or were just coerced. It isn't the sum total of who you are.

It's if you ever crossed a line at all. Look at yourselves, look at your Shepards, Paragon and Renegade, and ask if you ever broke laws or did what she would be bound to stop were she not under oath to you. Just once is all it takes for the Justicar code to be invoked.

The Justicars aren't a forgiving force for kindness. They aren't a merciful force, a forgiving force, willing to let lapses go like a Paragon (or even Renegade) often does. They are a force for absolute compliance with their laws, and without limit to the body count. Samara says it herself: many people herald the Justicars are heroes, and she'd still kill them all if the Code told her to.

A Code. A millenias-old rulebook, not authorized, vetted, or amended by any representative government, which will kill petty crime people and victimless criminals as soon as actual dangers to the public. A moralist movement of lethal force vigilantes without sanction who openly claiming inherent virtue by right of their private law. A movement with no barriers, no concept of civil rights for those accused and condemned, and for whom the closest thing to 'mercy' is 'higher priority, won't deal with you just yet'. A movement which admits to not even caring about the context of a crime it witnesses before doing its best to killing the perpetrator? Samara, who openly muses about going to Tuchanka and teaching the Krogan mercy by killing enough of them to change their views?


How on earth is this Paragon, or even opposed to Renegade? Paragons often go against what we know the Justicar Code would compell. Hiding the crime of Tali's father, covering up evidence?  Brainwashing the heretic geth? Stopping the killing of such wrongdoers as Nikett or Maleon? Getting Thane's son off the hook and tolerating Bailey's corruption? Sparing Sidonis?

Why is Samara linked to Paragon, when so many of the 'right' things by her code are Renegade? Why does she rejects a Renegade Shepard's advances, with a 'I feel no such connection, I have seen too many things my Code would compell me against'?

Heck, pretty much your entire ship and team: Mordin the War Criminal, Jack in sum total, Miranda and Jacob the criminal terrorists (which goes along with most of the crew), Kasumi the thief, Zaeed as well.

These aren't things only a Renegade Shepard does. Many occur regardless. Some of them are strictly paragon.



I don't get it. Or rather, I might, but I don't want to attribute it to poor writing and analysis. Samara shouldn't be aligned with Paragon in any respect. Nor should she be aligned with Renegade. She is most definitely neither, in word and action.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 novembre 2010 - 12:40 .


#2
curly haired boy

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all i can say is, thank god EDI keeps a block on samara's personal terminal. if she accidentally searches for "cerberus history"....



i believe it's only because she's such a noob about non-asari space that she hasn't caught on to who she's working with :P

#3
Dean_the_Young

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Given her response to Jacob upon boarding the Normandy ("from an organization such as yours...") I think we can safely say she knows.

#4
Nightwriter

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Firstly, it seems this discussion would require for us to pin down what exactly paragon and renegade are, which is always tricky.

Secondly, I would say people call Samara paragon because her top priority in every situation is justice. Justice, justice, justice. She will always pursue it, no matter what. That smacks of altruism, and altruism falls more in the paragon slot than the renegade slot.

Now, is her definition of justice one I agree with? That's a different question.

#5
Dean_the_Young

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Nightwriter wrote...

Firstly, it seems this discussion would require for us to pin down what exactly paragon and renegade are, which is always tricky.

Secondly, I would say people call Samara paragon because her top priority in every situation is justice. Justice, justice, justice. She will always pursue it, no matter what. That smacks of altruism, and altruism falls more in the paragon slot than the renegade slot.

Now, is her definition of justice one I agree with? That's a different question.

Renegade can also be about justice, though. Whatever it may be, it's never been about amorality and injustice.

Paragon is also the side of compromise, not ruthless absolutes over other people. How does that square?


Edit: I also don't think we need to agree exactly what Renegade and Paragon are in order to agree what they are not. How many times do we ever get a paragon 'you are a criminal, now die' from the paragon side?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:21 .


#6
lovgreno

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Paragon is more about playing by the rules than being mercifull. If anyone plays by a set of rules it's Samara. These rules can never be bent even for her own or someone elses good (as she sees it). Samaras pleasant demeanor may make her seem like a kind old gal but she often clearly says that her code often makes her act unforgiving and cruel in most peoples eyes.



Her daughter on the other hand makes her own rules, and the difference between the two of them shows the real difference between paragon and renegade in my opinion. Things like right or wrong, black or white, good or evil, selfish or unselfish, etc, doesn't have to have anything to do with paragon or renegade unless we want to simplify it in that way. Personaly I think that would be a boring and too easy way of playing the game but each to their own.



Some misstake the paragon choices for being more moraly influenced than the renegade counterpart. But actualy renegade just follow a different set of morals (often the moral of "the end justifies the means"). Things like kindness and sympathy is not only a paragon thing.

#7
Dean_the_Young

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Kindness and sympathy aren't (though are stronger tied), but mercy certainly is.

Paragon is lawful by any means either.


And, as I mentioned in the OP, it isn't what you generally do. It's about whatever you've done. It doesn't matter how Paragon you are, you still steal the Normandy in ME1. That was piracy, as everyone recognized it as. We know what Samara does to pirates.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:24 .


#8
AntiChri5

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People think Samara is accepting of paragons because she will tell a paragon Shep that they may call on her any time after the mission and she will come running.

How odd. People think it because it is relayed to them that way in the game.

#9
Dean_the_Young

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And the game is inconsistent with Samara. The very first interaction you can have with Samara involves the opportunity for a Paragon to contrast their ways with Samara's execution of the eclipse.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:26 .


#10
Collider

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Paragon and Renegade aren't really well defined. At least, not in an obvious way.



I'd put Samara as "neutral" more so than paragon. Does it matter though? She is what she is.

#11
Nightwriter

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Renegade can also be about justice, though.


See, I already disagree. This is why it's so tricky. I feel like renegade is about consequentialism, and when it is about justice, it's more about punishment.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Whatever it may be, it's never been about amorality and injustice.


Though I definitely agree with this.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Paragon is also the side of compromise, not ruthless absolutes over other people. How does that square?


And this.

So you see, paragon and renegade are really hard to define concepts. How about this: What is justice? We need to nail that down before we can figure out whether Samara upholds it or not.

#12
General User

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I agree, Samara is certainly not a paragon as the game defines it, but neither is she a renegade, she is a Justicar, a person with no human equivalent (at least in the past 500 years, not even then really).



A few points if I may,



Asari are governed by direct democracy, and have for millennia both sanctioned, and abetted the actions and decisions of the Justicars. In Asari society the judgments and actions of Justicars carry the same weight that those of a court of law do for humans. They are not vigilantes, but rather an alternative to the Asari legal system.



Many societies do not have the same view of legal protections, appropriate punishment, and civil rights that others do, it makes the judgments of their legal systems no less valid, they are sovereign bodies. If the citizens of a given state don’t like their legal system, it is their responsibility to change it, and them alone.



Samara does acknowledge that her actions may not be morally correct. It’s really a bit like a judge, who’s a rather gentle fellow himself, can still sentence a man to death. Only Samara carries out the sentence herself.



From a human perspective, this makes Samara seem rather cowardly, in so far as she uses the Code to avoid moral responsibility for her actions. One of the things I really like about Samara is the fact that she does grow as a person over the course of ME2, esp. w/ a paragon Shep. (“I thought I had seen all the universe had to show, blah blah blah”). This is rather remarkable given that she is nearly 1000 years old and has been fighting evil since before humans had steam power. It is that capacity for growth and change that I find most compelling about her. She is not a “paragon” but she may become one.


#13
Dean_the_Young

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Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Renegade can also be about justice, though.


See, I already disagree. This is why it's so tricky. I feel like renegade is about consequentialism, and when it is about justice, it's more about punishment.

Leaving that consequentialism is its own form of justice and morality (''morality is how this action will affect others"),  I'll admit the two are incredibly entertwined. I believe it's Japanese in which the character for 'justice' is 'punishment': Tenchou, divine justice, is more literally 'punishment of the heavens.'

Regardless, Samara's justice is definitely of the punishment sort. Same with Garrus/Archangel.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Whatever it may be, it's never been about amorality and injustice.


Though I definitely agree with this.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Paragon is also the side of compromise, not ruthless absolutes over other people. How does that square?


And this.

So you see, paragon and renegade are really hard to define concepts. How about this: What is justice? We need to nail that down before we can figure out whether Samara upholds it or not.

I don't think we need to in order to affirm that she upholds her form of justice. But just because she's Just by her definition doesn't make it Paragon or Renegade, and it annoys me that it's treated as Paragon despite it.


A lot of this would be mooted in my view if they highlighted the contrast between her views and Paragon actions more. If, say, that romance scene were the same between both alignments...

#14
curly haired boy

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Given her response to Jacob upon boarding the Normandy ("from an organization such as yours...") I think we can safely say she knows.


she knows, but i don't think she knows.

because given cerberus's actions and various misdeeds...

#15
Dean_the_Young

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General User wrote...

I agree, Samara is certainly not a paragon as the game defines it, but neither is she a renegade, she is a Justicar, a person with no human equivalent (at least in the past 500 years, not even then really).

A few points if I may,

Asari are governed by direct democracy, and have for millennia both sanctioned, and abetted the actions and decisions of the Justicars. In Asari society the judgments and actions of Justicars carry the same weight that those of a court of law do for humans. They are not vigilantes, but rather an alternative to the Asari legal system.

Many societies do not have the same view of legal protections, appropriate punishment, and civil rights that others do, it makes the judgments of their legal systems no less valid, they are sovereign bodies. If the citizens of a given state don’t like their legal system, it is their responsibility to change it, and them alone.

Samara does acknowledge that her actions may not be morally correct. It’s really a bit like a judge, who’s a rather gentle fellow himself, can still sentence a man to death. Only Samara carries out the sentence herself.

I'll more or less accept these points and expansions, as they don't counter my overall point, but I would point out that Paragon/Renegade are certainly measured from a human perspective for Shepard.

From a human perspective, this makes Samara seem rather cowardly, in so far as she uses the Code to avoid moral responsibility for her actions. One of the things I really like about Samara is the fact that she does grow as a person over the course of ME2, esp. w/ a paragon Shep. (“I thought I had seen all the universe had to show, blah blah blah”). This is rather remarkable given that she is nearly 1000 years old and has been fighting evil since before humans had steam power. It is that capacity for growth and change that I find most compelling about her. She is not a “paragon” but she may become one.

She'll give the same to a Renegade Shepard as well.

#16
AntiChri5

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The number one place where they dropped the ball with Samara is in making her response to you based on Paragon/Renegade.

Overall she is more Paragon then Renegade, yeah. But certainly not by all that much.

I mean, the whole point of the Paragon/Renegade system being the way it was is so that you can be both simultaneously.

It is fairly easy to get more Renegade then Paragon just by snarky conversation options and actions she would take.

They should have linked it to specific decisions. Let the workers burn on Zory? She does not respect you. Etc.

#17
Dean_the_Young

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curly haired boy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Given her response to Jacob upon boarding the Normandy ("from an organization such as yours...") I think we can safely say she knows.


she knows, but i don't think she knows.

because given cerberus's actions and various misdeeds...

What?

Samara didn't elect to go with Shepard because she heard nice things about him and how good he was. Samara wanted to use a semi-loophole in her code to get around having to murder a police station doing its job and still keep on Morinth's trail.

The Shepard I just played through was about as criminal/Renegade/nasty as you can be. He has no nice reputation, especially to Aliens. Samara didn't care who she was working with. Just that she could get around having to kill a lot of police.

A nice loophole to do what she wanted, rather than what the Code demanded, but a loophole that won't apply to Shepard and his crew past the mission.

#18
firest0rm

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The way i boil it down is: the code is a nebulous thing and we don't really get a clear cut idea as to what exactly the code defines as "wicked or unjust" (which is probably why people label her as paragon since to many paragon = forgiving crime fighter that punishes crimes) so it hard to really get a handle on what she would and wouldn't approve of/which alignment she closest resembles.

Additionally i always was under the impression that to samara unjust/wicked acts weren't exactly the same as breaking the law hence how she could punish certain "crimes" yet approve of certain decisions that many would define as criminal. (like some of the more forgiving paragon decisions.)

there is more to your post i know but to be flatly honest im not sure i know quite how to tackle it without taking an hour to articulate my thoughts =P

Modifié par firest0rm, 05 novembre 2010 - 01:54 .


#19
AntiChri5

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Why do people think she is going to simply turn around and start shooting a renShep?

She says she will be forced to taoe action if you cross paths again.

So long as you steer clear of the magical vortex that sucks in everyone Shepard meets known as Ilium you should be fine.

#20
Nightwriter

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I feel a text chain coming!

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Leaving that consequentialism is its own form of justice and morality (''morality is how this action will affect others")


Wait, wait! Don't gloss over this part, now. 

It's always incredibly tricky to define morality by consequentialism; you'll always be defining right and wrong by metalifing (for lack of a better word).

Consequentialists give themselves dangerous power. They can basically excuse any act by saying it might be justified in the future. But we cannot always let outcome rule morality. Outcome is uncertain.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll admit the two are incredibly entertwined. I believe it's Japanese in which the character for 'justice' is 'punishment'. Tenchou, divine justice, is more literally 'punishment of the heavens.'


I agree. I suppose I have always just felt that paragons and renegades focus on different parts of justice, then - paragons focus on protecting the innocent; renegades focus on punishing the wicked.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Regardless, Samara's justice is definitely of the punishment sort. Same with Garrus/Archangel.


I don't think this is true. Samara tells us her Code compels her to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. I think she does both equally.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't think we need to in order to affirm that she upholds her form of justice. But just because she's Just by her definition doesn't make it Paragon or Renegade, and it annoys me that it's treated as Paragon despite it.


I think it does. She follows her people's strictest definitions of morality and justice. I think that is really all we can expect of a paragon. There is no universal definition of morality.

Within reason, of course. If Samara's Code defined justice as the torturing of innocents, we wouldn't call her paragon for following that Code religiously.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A lot of this would be mooted in my view if they highlighted the contrast between her views and Paragon actions more. If, say, that romance scene were the same between both alignments...


The truth surfaces.

#21
Dean_the_Young

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And this comes back to why she would have to shoot a RenShep if they saw eachother again, and yet would come running (presumably not shooting) if a ParaShep called?

#22
jbblue05

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Samara definently leans more towards renegade. cold demeanor, ruthless efficiency, doesn't give criminals second chances..
When she told my renegade Shepard I would be compel to kill you I was like WTFImage IPB  we are the same in many ways
punish the wicked protect the innocent.  The only Paragon things about her is that she would let a mass murderder go to save an innocent.

Their are Paragon and Renegade things about Samara when she says she hates Renegades I thought it was to make paragons feel good about themselves.

#23
AntiChri5

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The presumption is that Renegades will have broken her code frequently.

#24
Dean_the_Young

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Which is a rather silly distinction considering what we often hear and see her code to imply in regard to paragon actions.

#25
AntiChri5

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The number 51 is closer to 100 then it is to 0.