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[Cheese Elemental]

It's important to consider that humanity's views on justice aren't the only ones that matter. We have little idea of what asari society within their native space is like, and the continuing existence of the justicars (albeit as a dwindling order) indicates that they once had a strong sense of justice, but that was lost as they joined the galactic community and ideals began crossing over both ways, like the religion-swapping that goes on between humans and aliens.

It's no wonder justicars don't leave asari space often. Their code is too alien to be applied anywhere else.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
She'll give the same to a Renegade Shepard as well.

Really? That’s great! I really like that, the idea that you (as Shepard) can have an effect on the lives of those around you, guiding them down one path or the other, “a beacon unto others”  for good or ill so to speak, makes for great storytelling, esp. in a video game.   
 I’ve never played the game as a renegade. Does Samara also have a “maybe in another life” moment with a renegade? I got the impression that her relationship with renegade Shep. was rather “strained.”

[Nightwriter]

jbblue05 wrote...

Samara definently leans more towards renegade. cold demeanor, ruthless efficiency, doesn't give criminals second chances..
When she told my renegade Shepard I would be compel to kill you I was like WTF  we are the same in many ways
punish the wicked protect the innocent.  The only Paragon things about her is that she would let a mass murderder go to save an innocent.

Their are Paragon and Renegade things about Samara when she says she hates Renegades I thought it was to make paragons feel good about themselves.

Renegade Shepard does things like kill all the Feros colonists, leave a refinery to burn, give David back to Cerberus and kill the Council out of spite.

These are probably things Samara would find objectionable.

[curly haired boy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

curly haired boy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Given her response to Jacob upon boarding the Normandy ("from an organization such as yours...") I think we can safely say she knows.

she knows, but i don't think she knows.

because given cerberus's actions and various misdeeds...

What?

Samara didn't elect to go with Shepard because she heard nice things about him and how good he was. Samara wanted to use a semi-loophole in her code to get around having to murder a police station doing its job and still keep on Morinth's trail.

The Shepard I just played through was about as criminal/Renegade/nasty as you can be. He has no nice reputation, especially to Aliens. Samara didn't care who she was working with. Just that she could get around having to kill a lot of police.

A nice loophole to do what she wanted, rather than what the Code demanded, but a loophole that won't apply to Shepard and his crew past the mission.

this is probably why all my sheps leave her to meditate in peace until the suicide mission...

[Zulu_DFA]

jbblue05 wrote...
ruthless efficiency

No.

Samara is efficient only so much through individual biotic / weapons / martial arts training. But she sucks at tactics.
I bet her Code prohibits her to use "dishonest" tricks and methods in combat even when it doesn't involve "innocent" third parties.

She openly admits that she's going to kill the NAPD detective unless Shepard completes the quest in time, thus giving the detective an edge, and indirectly involving even more "innocents" in the possible massacre resulting from the inevitable attempt to detain her.

That's not ruthless efficiency. That's stupid paragonism.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 novembre 2010 - 02:13 .

[jbblue05]

Nightwriter wrote...

Renegade Shepard does things like kill all the Feros colonists, leave a refinery to burn, give David back to Cerberus and kill the Council out of spite.

These are probably things Samara would find objectionable.

Renegade Shepard is pro-human which means he wants to save the human colony.at all costs  if it was aa turian colony then I would've got a little bloodthirsty

The only Shepard that will destroy the Colony is lazy or human-hating Shepard.

Killing VIdo will save more innocents in the long run.  DOn't get me wrong I would've preferred sending 1 teammate to save the workers while me and Zaaed took out Vido

David is a pordigy and is a once-in-a-lifetime oppurtunity you can't pass up.

I kill the Council  because Sovereign was too powerful and I'm not going to sacrifice the Alliance Fleet to save 3 people who told the Alliance they didn't need their help to defend the Citadel.


Samara wouldn't approve of letting Helena Blacke,  Fist, and Rana go.  SHe wouldn't approve of freeing the Rachni Queen go and she wouldn't approve of curing the genophage

[Zulu_DFA]

jbblue05 wrote...

Renegade Shepard is pro-human

No. It's other way around. Pro-human Shepard is Renegade. Because pro-human means jerk.



Renegade = jerk (just hack it, dude)



Paragon = mommy's boy-scout.



That's why accusing Liara of having done the wrong thing by giving Shepard's body to Cerberus is a renegade option on the dialogue wheel.

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
She'll give the same to a Renegade Shepard as well.

Really? That’s great! I really like that, the idea that you (as Shepard) can have an effect on the lives of those around you, guiding them down one path or the other, “a beacon unto others”  for good or ill so to speak, makes for great storytelling, esp. in a video game.   
 I’ve never played the game as a renegade. Does Samara also have a “maybe in another life” moment with a renegade? I got the impression that her relationship with renegade Shep. was rather “strained.”

Nope.

Renegade Shepard gets the same lines up to that point, bar the end-game 'I'll have to kill you if I see you again' piece. Friendship/romance-wise, it's the exact same up to the point where you can make a move, so to speak. She calls you friend, you can say you want more, and if you're Paragon you get a scene before rejection and if you're Renegade she goes 'I've seen you do too many things to feel a connection.'

Otherwise, you're still friends, you've still introduced her to many new things in a galaxy she thought she already knew, etc. etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The number 51 is closer to 100 then it is to 0.

Both 0 and 100 are arbitrary measurements, not innately deserving one response or another.

In this case, 100 and 0 are (should be) both unacceptable to her.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Samara definently leans more towards renegade. cold demeanor, ruthless efficiency, doesn't give criminals second chances..
When she told my renegade Shepard I would be compel to kill you I was like WTF  we are the same in many ways
punish the wicked protect the innocent.  The only Paragon things about her is that she would let a mass murderder go to save an innocent.

Their are Paragon and Renegade things about Samara when she says she hates Renegades I thought it was to make paragons feel good about themselves.

Renegade Shepard does things like kill all the Feros colonists, leave a refinery to burn, give David back to Cerberus and kill the Council out of spite.

These are probably things Samara would find objectionable.

No doubt.

And that isn't what's at debate either.

The problem is that there are other Renegade actions Samara is aligned with, and Paragon options she opposed, but she is only notes the Renegade actions.

Yes, I dislike that. It leads me to struggle between labeling her a hypocrite, or accusing the writers of bad writing. And since one of the foundations of Samara's charater is that love her or hate her she honestly follows the Code always...

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Dean, that's an awful lot of words to say "Samara is actually Paragade" and "The Paragon/Renegade system is woefully ill-equipped to deal with the intricacies of morality".

Sure, if she were Renagone or Paragade aligned. But she isn't.

On a red and blue morality scale, Samara might as well be green, and judges by green. Neigther red or blue passes the filter.

[Zulu_DFA]

yorkj86 wrote...

She is of mixed alignment, but the game presents her/the writers write her as if she isn't.

She is 100% what/how the writers write her, isn't she? I mean, how can she be something else?

[ScooterPie88]

I think Samara is more of Paragade/Renegon than either one specifically. That's why she gets along so well with Shep's of both sides because she herself is in the middle. No matter what your alignment she says if she survives that you can call upon her to help you anytime (assuming you helped/gained her loyalty).

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

I feel a text chain coming!

Spookily accurate...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Leaving that consequentialism is its own form of justice and morality (''morality is how this action will affect others")

Wait, wait! Don't gloss over this part, now. 

It's always incredibly tricky to define morality by consequentialism; you'll always be defining right and wrong by metalifing (for lack of a better word).

Consequentialists give themselves dangerous power. They can basically excuse any act by saying it might be justified in the future. But we cannot always let outcome rule morality. Outcome is uncertain.

Morality always comes down to two broad categories: things that are wrong because of how they harm others, and things that are wrong even if they don't harm others.

Consequentialists remain almost entirely on the first half of the spectrum. Unbridaled consequentialism can be dangerous... but that, to, is a consequence that can be addressed by consequentialism restraint. The better category is utilitarianism, which includes not just effects, but motives as well.

Utilitarianism doesn't negate peer review or trials about actions: it merely defines the basis for pardoning a crime. Someone who does a crime knowing the problems it will cause (first degree murder), versus someone who doesn't know what they're doing is going to harm someone. A bad action that helps no one, versus a bad action that may save many more.

The grounds of such decisions have to be solid and reasonable. Even paragon players accept greater good arguments in abstract and execution, though with differently weighted scales of what's necessary or good.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll admit the two are incredibly entertwined. I believe it's Japanese in which the character for 'justice' is 'punishment'. Tenchou, divine justice, is more literally 'punishment of the heavens.'

I agree. I suppose I have always just felt that paragons and renegades focus on different parts of justice, then - paragons focus on protecting the innocent; renegades focus on punishing the wicked.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Regardless, Samara's justice is definitely of the punishment sort. Same with Garrus/Archangel.

I don't think this is true. Samara tells us her Code compels her to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. I think she does both equally.

When do we ever see or hear of her protecting the wicked, as opposed to punishing? About the only case I can think of is when her presence prevented a pirate attack on a ship she was on.

Samara spent hundreds of years hunting down Morinth to punish her. When she travelled, as she tells us, people brought past wrongs to her attention and she metted out punishment.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't think we need to in order to affirm that she upholds her form of justice. But just because she's Just by her definition doesn't make it Paragon or Renegade, and it annoys me that it's treated as Paragon despite it.

I think it does. She follows her people's strictest definitions of morality and justice. I think that is really all we can expect of a paragon. There is no universal definition of morality.

No, but there doesn't need to be. We only need to keep the frame of reference we're using in mind and stable.

If we want to go 'well, she's a paragon in her own standards,' that doesn't mean Shepard is a paragon as well, even if Shepard is a paragon by game standards. It's about as logical as saying Samara should have no problem with Grunt because he's a nigh-Paragon of Krogan identity.

Within reason, of course. If Samara's Code defined justice as the torturing of innocents, we wouldn't call her paragon for following that Code religiously.

Except we would, because we aren't sticking by a universal standard, remember? We're going by hers?

Samara might not torture innocents, but her code very much kills the guilty in ways and contexts antithetical to Paragon Shepard's standards. Samara kills corrupt officials as a matter of course. What does a Paragon do to criminals most the time: kill, or arrest/let go mercifully?

The truth surfaces.

You caught me Night. Entirely correct. My Renegade Shep has blue balls because he was spurned by the Justicar with a kill count rivaling his, and is currently selfishly seducing Tali for a chance to release (and maybe get influence over the Geth fleet after hearing she could be made admiral).



No, actually, I was playing through my FemShep Paragon Cerberus Loyalist, who despite a lot of Renegade big choices remains Paragon.

[Cyberfrog81]

She may be more at ease with a Shepard that tries to be paragon than a mean-spirited renegade butcher Shepard. I don't have a problem with that, and never got the impression that the game screamed "SAMARA IS PARAGON!!!" in my ear either.

[Nightwriter]

Samara is paragon because she follows law. Is her law paragon or renegade? Different matter.

Yes, paragons do sometimes violate law. But generally speaking they hold themselves up to a moral standard which they check themselves against.

Samara does this.

[Collider]

I wished they had never had paragon and renegade and just had DA:O's morality system.

[Zulu_DFA]

yorkj86 wrote...

Not when Shepard's morality arbitrarily flip-flops during the game, too. Attempting to avoid flip-flopping in ME2 is pretty much a metagaming endeavor.

Shepard's morality is your morality (or the one you invent anyway when you create a character), so it can't flip-flop during the game, unless it's your own fault. The game's trying to shoehorn and trick you into taking certain options, often via a discrepancy between the dialogue wheel line and the phrase Shepard actually delivers when you click it, is a whole another matter.



The actual problem is that the paragon-renegade meter is overrated, and often used to describe Shepard's alignment and compare it to those of other characters. And even BioWare writers themselves fall in this pit often when writing the dialogue and behavior options for Shepard. I believe it would be better if Shepard's options were held against the three psychological profiles (Hero, Survivor, Ruthless).

[Collider]

Shepard's morality is your morality (or the one you invent anyway when you create a character), so it can't flip-flop during the game, unless it's your own fault.

Sometimes it's hard to tell what Shepard will say. Most of the time I can get the gist but sometimes the paraphrasing isn't good enough. Of course, YMMV, but I think many people have legitimately had Shepard say something that they didn't Shepard to say.