305 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

It's quite simple. Samara doesn't enjoy being a justicar.



She sees it as her duty and what she fundamentally is, but it's not something that she particularly likes, just what she has to do. She's not at all bloodthirsty, as far as I can see, and her line about not wanting to kill someone she knows is a devoted father shows that she can recognize shades of gray, she's just forbidden to acknowledge them. I believe that, while she doesn't show it, she's very happy to serve under a more moderate Paragon Shepard by the Third Oath of Subsumation, and not have to be responsible for killing everyone who's transgressed against the Code.

[RiouHotaru]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And we fall back to 'Renegades are unjust' -censored-. And roleplaying -censored- that doesn't even necessarily apply.

Samara doesn't talk about your morals or your intent. In a lot of those, she is Renegade. She talks about your actions. In many of those as well, she is not Paragon.

I never Renegades are unjust.  And you shouldn't think that they are either.  There is a saying "Anything done right isn't done easy."  This doesn't mean Renegades are doing things "wrong", simply that they're doing this "easy", which typically doesn't lead to a favorable outcome for everyone else.  Paragons have to jump through hoops to try and achieve a good outcome.  Renegades simply plow through the wall instead.

Samara's Code is her own sort of "Paragon/Renegade" if you will, and she admits that it's very different from what humans consider moral or just.  You can't call her actions Paragon or Renegade, because then you're trying to apply a label to her that was never meant to be used on her in the first place.

Yes, I do agree that calling Samara a Paragon is silly.

[Habelo]

Paragons follow the law.

[TuringPoint]

She isn't paragon or renegade. In fact, I think the Paragon/Renegade descriptor is only good for Shepard and his actions, as a Spectre and as representative of his humanity in some way.

The code is alien. I would say that anyone who chooses the Code wouldn't do so for reckless or "renegade" reasons, however.  Paragons are less prone to pointless destruction or giving an amoral order.  That is what Justicar's are against, more or less, although their code is what really defines their actions.

Modifié par Alocormin, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:31 .

[Getorex]

Habelo wrote...

Paragons follow the law.

It goes beyond that. Paragons also follow something akin to "First, do no harm." They do not simply plow in and call someone an @sshole or pansy or toss insults (renegade) or insensitive remarks at people, they attempt to minimize the social harms around them too. They offer mercy while the renegade never heard of it.

Ethics are not the "law" (at least not in all cases). They exist quite apart from law and can often be contrary to law.

[Iakus]

This is why I always found Samara so facinating (and not because she keeps her shirt open to the navel)



She seems to be paragon taken to its logical extreme



On one hand, she enforces justice. She protects the weak and helpless, and smites the wicked. She follows a complex Code to the letter, saying she is just as long as she follows it. Following rules, living righteously, enforcing laws, doing things "by the book" sure sound paragon.



But...



She is absolutely merciless towards her enemies. Killing those who are incapable of defending themselves from her. Her adherence to the Code is absolute, even to the point where she would attack (and likely kill) police officers who are themselves innocent of any crime in her pursuit of justice. To her, there are no mitigating circumstances, no concept of mercy.



So, if one were to classify a paragon as one who does things "by the book" and a renegade who does things "the easy way" then yes, she is paragon. Good and evil dont come into it. Morality doesn't enter the equation. Just the Code. The Code is everything. renegades get the job done, regardless of rules. To Samara, the rules define her existence.



Paragon and renegade were never meant to be "good and evil" in the Mass Effect universe. It just seems that way because so often paragon choices are so goody-goody and renegade choices are so brutal . But paragons can be brutal too. And renegades can be charming.

[Getorex]

iakus wrote...

This is why I always found Samara so facinating (and not because she keeps her shirt open to the navel)



She seems to be paragon taken to its logical extreme



On one hand, she enforces justice. She protects the weak and helpless, and smites the wicked. She follows a complex Code to the letter, saying she is just as long as she follows it. Following rules, living righteously, enforcing laws, doing things "by the book" sure sound paragon.



But...



She is absolutely merciless towards her enemies. Killing those who are incapable of defending themselves from her. Her adherence to the Code is absolute, even to the point where she would attack (and likely kill) police officers who are themselves innocent of any crime in her pursuit of justice. To her, there are no mitigating circumstances, no concept of mercy.



So, if one were to classify a paragon as one who does things "by the book" and a renegade who does things "the easy way" then yes, she is paragon. Good and evil dont come into it. Morality doesn't enter the equation. Just the Code. The Code is everything. renegades get the job done, regardless of rules. To Samara, the rules define her existence.



Paragon and renegade were never meant to be "good and evil" in the Mass Effect universe. It just seems that way because so often paragon choices are so goody-goody and renegade choices are so brutal . But paragons can be brutal too. And renegades can be charming.

I'll go with your take on it. This is also why I never go pure. I am always some level of "paragade". I can only be an @sshole when the situation seems to best fit that modus operandi.

I can't stand pure paragon because it strikes me as rigid and even prissy. Pure renegade is just controlled sociopath.

[Saremei]

curly haired boy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Given her response to Jacob upon boarding the Normandy ("from an organization such as yours...") I think we can safely say she knows.

she knows, but i don't think she knows.

because given cerberus's actions and various misdeeds...

Samara punishes individuals for their own actions, not entire groups based on association.  Even if she knew every little thing Cerberus operatives in various independent cells had done, there is no way for her to lay the blame on any one of the Cerberus crew onboard the Normandy.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

For the record, renegade doesn't kill innocents. In fact, renegade Shepard and Samara have alot in common...except renegade Shepard's a dick in the talking department.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 05 novembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[Xilizhra]

Renegade Shepard wipes out the Feros colony, among other things. And lets Pitne For go after extracting a bribe, and lets Niftu Cal get himself killed...

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Renegade Shepard wipes out the Feros colony, among other things. And lets Pitne For go after extracting a bribe, and lets Niftu Cal get himself killed...

And he killed them... how?

Samara's no stranger to mass casualties either. Remember the village Morinth bewitched, in which she killed every man and woman within? Not the only settlement, either, by her claim 'I have destroyed villages and saved cities.'

Ah, but they weren't innocent. Never mind.

[Xilizhra]

Samara A: probably had no choice, and B: is driven by a code that almost qualifies as mind control to hear her talk about it. Renegade Shepard is just a ****.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Samara A: probably had no choice, and B: is driven by a code that almost qualifies as mind control to hear her talk about it. Renegade Shepard is just a ****.

Wow. This is, just... amazing.

She has a choice.

She can not fight them.

Fighting them is a choice. The code is a choice. Persuing Morinth for the last several hundred years was a choice.

It's so nice to hear that it all amounts to Renegade Shepard is a ****. That's all it is, folks! Nothing else to see!

Ignore the religious zealot in the corner.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 novembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[AntiChri5]

Samara is not a religious zealout.

She is a zealot who is religious.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Samara A: probably had no choice, and B: is driven by a code that almost qualifies as mind control to hear her talk about it. Renegade Shepard is just a ****.

If Morinth is so sneaky and quick to escape any sort of trap as Samara claims. She had to realise that wasting even a second fighting the brainwashed colonist would result in Morinth escaping.

So I wonder why she didn't just incapicitate the colonist without using lethal force? They were brainwashed, so it wasn't entirely their fault.

Face it. Samara is no better than renegade Shepard at times.

[Dean_the_Young]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Samara is not a religious zealout.
She is a zealot who is religious.

Yes, because it was the religious aspect that was the problem.

Of course, since what she's a zealot about is a religious order of sorts, she may just be a zealout who is religious and zealoting for a religious order.

[AntiChri5]

I feel we need to be clear, Dean.

And we have no evidence to suggest that the Justicars are a religious order.

[General User]

Indeed, as the living embodiment of asari law, Samara is (arguably) a secular zealot. The Justicar code is reverent, not religious ie; it has no known theology associated with it.

Modifié par General User, 05 novembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Xilizhra wrote...

Renegade Shepard wipes out the Feros colony, among other things. And lets Pitne For go after extracting a bribe, and lets Niftu Cal get himself killed...

1. He didn't, he just sucks at throwing grenades.
2. Yeah actually that was dickish. Good thing I didn't do it.
3. Lets him get knocked out, that didn't look like it killed him.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 05 novembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Xilizhra]

If Morinth is so sneaky and quick to escape any sort of trap as Samara claims. She had to realise that wasting even a second fighting the brainwashed colonist would result in Morinth escaping.

Well, she could let them chase her all over the planet while Morinth gets even farther away, I suppose.

[Dean_the_Young]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I feel we need to be clear, Dean.
And we have no evidence to suggest that the Justicars are a religious order.

Perhaps I misinterpreted when the Justicars are described as a nigh-monastic order representing the Asari's most sacred laws.

[General User]

I also interpreted them to be a “nigh-monastic order representing the Asari's most sacred laws.” But that seems an inherently secular organization. Being honest, as a Westerner, I do see law as an inherently secular institution though.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Morinth is so sneaky and quick to escape any sort of trap as Samara claims. She had to realise that wasting even a second fighting the brainwashed colonist would result in Morinth escaping.

Well, she could let them chase her all over the planet while Morinth gets even farther away, I suppose.

Killing the colonist was also the faster and easier choice on Feros.

Or maybe that was just because the grenades never worked for me and I played on veteran?

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

I also interpreted them to be a “nigh-monastic order representing the Asari's most sacred laws.” But that seems an inherently secular organization. Being honest, as a Westerner, I do see law as an inherently secular institution though.

Sacred doesn't mean religious to you when used in the context of a monastic order?

Western has nothing to do with it. Bad history might: the foundation of most early legal systems was based on religion and religious justifications. Certainly western civilization and its roots.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 novembre 2010 - 11:41 .