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[Googlesaurus]

*facepalm*



Samara is not religious.



Samara clearly does not believe all the teachings of the Code.



Samara clearly states that Morinth sacrificed the brainwashed colonists when she ordered them to attack Samara.



You do not have free choice as a Justicar. That defeats the very purpose of a Justicar.

[Dean_the_Young]

Googlesaurus wrote...

*facepalm*

Samara is not religious.

She certainly invokes the Godess enough, and ascribes to Asari philosophies.

Where do you get that she is not religious?

Samara clearly does not believe all the teachings of the Code.

And yet she still follows them. Arguably even far more concerning.

Of course, now we have to ask which ones does she not believe, as opposed to does not want to resort to? Different question.

Samara clearly states that Morinth sacrificed the brainwashed colonists when she ordered them to attack Samara.

That does not dictate her actions and response any more than Shepard's response was dictated by the fact the Thorian sent it's controlled colonists against him.

You do not have free choice as a Justicar. That defeats the very purpose of a Justicar.

No, you do have free choice. You have the ability to choose, and to break those vows.

That Justicars don't does not mean they can't. I can't think of a moral standard in the world, let alone a 'paragon' standard in the game, in which 'I'm just following the orders laid out above me' absolves of responsibility.

[Xilizhra]

Lizardviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Morinth is so sneaky and quick to escape any sort of trap as Samara claims. She had to realise that wasting even a second fighting the brainwashed colonist would result in Morinth escaping.

Well, she could let them chase her all over the planet while Morinth gets even farther away, I suppose.

Killing the colonist was also the faster and easier choice on Feros.

Or maybe that was just because the grenades never worked for me and I played on veteran?

You're not chasing anything on Feros, especially not an extremely intelligent serial killer.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Morinth is so sneaky and quick to escape any sort of trap as Samara claims. She had to realise that wasting even a second fighting the brainwashed colonist would result in Morinth escaping.

Well, she could let them chase her all over the planet while Morinth gets even farther away, I suppose.

Killing the colonist was also the faster and easier choice on Feros.

Or maybe that was just because the grenades never worked for me and I played on veteran?

You're not chasing anything on Feros, especially not an extremely intelligent serial killer.

No. You are just in a race against time in order to stop galatic extinction.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't see how anyone could seriously argue that Morinth is a more dangerous criminal than Saren, or that Morinth is more time critical to stop than Saren.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

I also interpreted them to be a “nigh-monastic order representing the Asari's most sacred laws.” But that seems an inherently secular organization. Being honest, as a Westerner, I do see law as an inherently secular institution though.

Sacred doesn't mean religious to you when usedin the context of a monastic order?

 

Not really, “sacred” to me seems means reverence, which may or may not include religion.
 
Americans (he says hoping to avoid a real-world quagmire…) hold great reverence for their Constitution, a document which holds in high regard the principal of separation of church and state. That is, Americans respect (have reverence for) their republican form of government without worshiping it. This struck me as similar to how common asari see Justicars, like Samara. The Justicars are something they have almost unquestioning respect for, but not necessarily worship of.
 
As far as monastic orders go… Samara never seemed the “cloistered sister” type to me (not just because of her choice in clothing). Justicars have to be out in the world if they are to fulfill the role of their order. I interpreted “monastic” as meaning a style of training and discipline, not a religious order.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't see how anyone could seriously argue that Morinth is a more dangerous criminal than Saren, or that Morinth is more time critical to stop than Saren.

I also don't see how anyone could argue that Saren is running away right then, or that Samara had the gas grenades that dramatically sped things up, or that anyone paid attention to what I said earlier about Samara not enjoying being a justicar.

[AntiChri5]

Perhaps I misinterpreted when the Justicars are described as a nigh-monastic order representing the Asari's most sacred laws.

Samara says that the closest human equivalent is a samurai or a knight errant.

And her mumbling about a godess occasionally doesn't make her religous.

[Googlesaurus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She certainly invokes the Godess enough, and ascribes to Asari philosophies.

Where do you get that she is not religious?

So Liara and Matriarch Aethtya are religious because they involve a particular phrase. I guess all people who say "Oh my god" are now religious too.

If I ascribe to Plato's philosophies, I am not religious. If I ascribe to Western philosophies, I am still not religious.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet she still follows them. Arguably even far more concerning.

Of course, now we have to ask which ones does she not believe, as opposed to does not want to resort to? Different question.

That is the entire point of the Code, to give up your own personal philosophies and subscribe to a new one as your standard of right and wrong. It's the same basic idea as Christianity and Islam except the Code has no religious justification for its existence. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That does not dictate her actions and response any more than Shepard's response was dictated by the fact the Thorian sent it's controlled colonists against him.

She did not have a magical Anti-Morinth gas that releases all of her servants from her control. She did not have time to consider whether she could save the colonists or kill them on her way to Morinth. When Samara arrived at the colony, she had no preparation to take down the colonists with something specialized. As I recall, Shepard has no rigid code of ethics predetermined by tradition. All he has to do is take down Saren by any method he chooses. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, you do have free choice. You have the ability to choose, and to break those vows.

That Justicars don't does not mean they can't. I can't think of a moral standard in the world, let alone a 'paragon' standard in the game, in which 'I'm just following the orders laid out above me' absolves of responsibility.

Then she would stop being a Justicar. Justicars don't believe in free choice concerning the Code. They wouldn't make the vows if they weren't prepared to execute it. 

Every moral standard for every religion in the world follows that logic. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see how anyone could seriously argue that Morinth is a more dangerous criminal than Saren, or that Morinth is more time critical to stop than Saren.

I also don't see how anyone could argue that Saren is running away right then,

You have a limited number of leads on Saren, and they get colder every hour. You know he's upto galactic-scale harm, and that the more time you give him is more time he can cover his tracks and prepare.

And you're going to argue that it isn't time-sensitive?

or that Samara had the gas grenades that dramatically sped things up,

My gas grenades didn't work well enough (and I didn't have enough of them).

But, as you've already determined, Renegade Shepard was just a ****.

or that anyone paid attention to what I said earlier about Samara not enjoying being a justicar.

When does Samara ever tell you she does not prefer being a Justicar?

Because when I asked, Paragon or Renegade, she talked about how it gave her peace and contentment. Not that she hated it.

Regardless, she remains one of her own will. She can be held to it.

[Xilizhra]

When does Samara ever tell you she does not prefer being a Justicar?

Refer to my post at the beginning of the last page. She seems to see it as an unpleasant duty, and I don't doubt that she's happy to be allowed by her oath to be somewhat less killy by serving Paragon Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She certainly invokes the Godess enough, and ascribes to Asari philosophies.

Where do you get that she is not religious?

So Liara and Matriarch Aethtya are religious because they involve a particular phrase. I guess all people who say "Oh my god" are now religious too.

Do you see any sign that Liara or Aethtya aren't religious? And they envoke the Goddess far less than Samara does.

If I ascribe to Plato's philosophies, I am not religious. If I ascribe to Western philosophies, I am still not religious.

Only in so much as you mark a difference between deistic religions and secular religions of philosophies.

That is the entire point of the Code, to give up your own personal philosophies and subscribe to a new one as your standard of right and wrong. It's the same basic idea as Christianity and Islam except the Code has no religious justification for its existence.

We still hold Christians and Muslims accountable for their actions, even when they claim divine justification.

Nowadays, especially when they claim divine justification.

She did not have a magical Anti-Morinth gas that releases all of her servants from her control.

Why is gas the only non-lethal means in her inventory?

She did not have time to consider whether she could save the colonists or kill them on her way to Morinth.

Says who?

When Samara arrived at the colony, she had no preparation to take down the colonists with something specialized.

She didn't have to keep fighting once Morinth had already fled.

As I recall, Shepard has no rigid code of ethics predetermined by tradition. All he has to do is take down Saren by any method he chooses.

Samara can choose her code, and she can choose to follow it. Since when did Paragons stop believing in free will?

Then she would stop being a Justicar. Justicars don't believe in free choice concerning the Code. They wouldn't make the vows if they weren't prepared to execute it.

And this comes back to the original question of 'in what god-awful sense is mindless, mandated massacre Paragon?'

'She was ordered to'? 'She had to because she was obligated to'? 

That didn't work for Doctor Archer, and the Geth are a far greater threat than Morinth, and Archer's acts involved far fewer people.

Every moral standard for every religion in the world follows that logic. 

Aren't you the one who just insisted she's not religious?

Karmic religions don't really hold that either. Karma isn't something you appeal to: it just happens.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 novembre 2010 - 12:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

When does Samara ever tell you she does not prefer being a Justicar?

Refer to my post at the beginning of the last page. She seems to see it as an unpleasant duty, and I don't doubt that she's happy to be allowed by her oath to be somewhat less killy by serving Paragon Shepard.

Your post answered nothing of the sort. It was a collection of your interpretations of... well, nothing supported by any mention of in-game events to back the claims. Like the 'prefers to serve under a Paragon' deal.


So I'll ask you again: where does Samara ever tell you she does not prefer being a Justicar?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 novembre 2010 - 12:24 .

[Googlesaurus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Do you see any sign that Liara or Aethtya aren't religious? And they envoke the Goddess far less than Samara does.

The burden of proof is on you. You made a positive claim without any substantial proof, don't try to point the finger at me. Just admit when you have a weak argument. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Only in so much as you mark a difference between deistic religions and secular religions of philosophies.

No, that is a distinction between all religions and most philosophies. By definition religion requires belief in the existence of a deity. Platonism has no deities by default; neither does pragmatism, consequentialism, Nietzschean philosophy, etc.  

Dean_the_Young wrote...
We still hold Christians and Muslims accountable for their actions, even when they claim divine justification.

Nowadays, especially when they claim divine justification.

Both Christianity and Islam impart a moral code whose authority is entirely separate from the opinions of its followers.

Who's this vague "we"? The coincidental public that doesn't share their beliefs?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why is gas the only non-lethal means in her inventory?

A better question would be: what in-game evidence suggests that Samara carries around such an inventory? She forsook everything except weapons and armor.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Says who?

Says Samara herself. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She didn't have to keep fighting once Morinth had already fled.

Because she wasn't being attacked by mindcontrolled colonists? Because Morinth didn't deliberately throw them in Samara's way so that she could escape in the first place?

Dean_the-Young wrote...

Samara can choose her code, and she can choose to follow it. Since when did Paragons stop believing in free will?

She already did. 400 years ago. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And this comes back to the original question of 'in what god-awful sense is mindless, mandated massacre Paragon?'

'She was ordered to'? 'She had to because she was obligated to'?

A regretful, mandated massacre for self-preservation falls under the Justicar Code, which is neither Paragon nor Renegade. It's not diplomatic enough to be Paragon, and it's not "shifty" enough to be Renegade. It is what it is. If anything it leans towards Paragon because it takes an absolutist stance towards "protecting the innocent". 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That didn't work for Doctor Archer, and the Geth are a far greater threat than Morinth, and Archer's acts involved far fewer people.

LOL you mean those geth who just want to be left alone and build a big enlightenment container? Archer worked off a faulty premise, as does most of the galaxy. That doesn't make him bad; it's forcing his brother to merge with an AI that makes him "guilty" in the game. 

Samara justifies her actions by her adherence to the Code, which is as good as a measure of moral virtue as any other belief system in existence.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aren't you the one who just insisted she's not religious?

Karmic religions don't really hold that either. Karma isn't something you appeal to: it just happens.

Did I say she was religious? Most secular law systems follow the exact same rationalization as well. 

There are no karmic religions without deities, or else they wouldn't be called "religions". They would be called karmic philosophies.

Let's be absolutely clear. The Justicar Code exists to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. It doesn't exist for personal enlightenment or to make someone a morally good person.

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...
]
You do not have free choice as a Justicar. That defeats the very purpose of a Justicar.

No, you do have free choice. You have the ability to choose, and to break those vows.

That Justicars don't does not mean they can't. I can't think of a moral standard in the world, let alone a 'paragon' standard in the game, in which 'I'm just following the orders laid out above me' absolves of responsibility.

Paragon does not equal "good" or "nice"  paragon=follows the rules.  "Lawful" alignment, if you will.  Morality simply doesn't enter the equation.

"I answer to a code that is clearly defined.  If my actions are true to that code, I am just.  If they are not, I am unjust."


Samara follows her Codes, regardless of circumstances.  Justice must be enforced, the rules followed.  Renegades have no need for such rules.  But a paragon who takes things to extremes, well, at some point paragon and renegade sorta bend back around and start to look alike:

"In this age, people see shades of grey everywhere.  The Code of the justicar is black and white.  I might seem a hero to many, but I would kill all of them if I had to"

Modifié par iakus, 06 novembre 2010 - 03:46 .

[AdamNW]

curly haired boy wrote...
i believe it's only because she's such a noob about non-asari space that she hasn't caught on to who she's working with

Of course, the fact that she swore an oath to Shepard stating "your morals are my morals" must not have actually meant anything.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Googlesaurus wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Do you see any sign that Liara or Aethtya aren't religious? And they envoke the Goddess far less than Samara does.[/quote]

The burden of proof is on you. You made a positive claim without any substantial proof, don't try to point the finger at me. Just admit when you have a weak argument. [/quote]
I already did, several posts back. When I said I must have misinterpreted it.

Then people started to claim other characters weren't religious at all.


[quote]
No, that is a distinction between all religions and most philosophies. By definition religion requires belief in the existence of a deity. Platonism has no deities by default; neither does pragmatism, consequentialism, Nietzschean philosophy, etc.  [/quote]I think you miss the point of a secular religion, and so there's no point to continuing this.
[quote]
A better question would be: what in-game evidence suggests that Samara carries around such an inventory? She forsook everything except weapons and armor.[/quote]Gas grenades are hardly the only weapons that are non-lethal, nor must all weapons be used lethally.
[quote]
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Says who?[/quote]

Says Samara herself. [/quote]Samara doesn't say she couldn't have avoided it. Samara says Morinth threw them at her, and she wiped them all out.

[quote]
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

She didn't have to keep fighting once Morinth had already fled.[/quote]

Because she wasn't being attacked by mindcontrolled colonists? Because Morinth didn't deliberately throw them in Samara's way so that she could escape in the first place?[/quote]Once Morinth threw them in the way and Morinth's escape guaranteed, what mandated that Samara proceed forward, through them, and not withdraw?
[quote]
[quote]Dean_the-Young wrote...

Samara can choose her code, and she can choose to follow it. Since when did Paragons stop believing in free will?[/quote]

She already did. 400 years ago. [/quote]That doesn't answer the the question of why she has no choice. She chose to follow a path long ago, and she chooses to continue on that path now.

[quote]
A regretful, mandated massacre for self-preservation falls under the Justicar Code, which is neither Paragon nor Renegade. It's not diplomatic enough to be Paragon, and it's not "shifty" enough to be Renegade. It is what it is. If anything it leans towards Paragon because it takes an absolutist stance towards "protecting the innocent". [/quote]Wiping out a colony of manipulated, controlled civilians is protecting the innocent. And Paragon.

Does anyone see any problem or contradiction with this? Anyone?

'Mandated' is not a defense for massacre. 'Following orders' is not a defense for great crimes. I agree that it is neither Paragon or Renegade, but she should never been made aligned with Paragon at all, and Paragon options should be aghast at what she has done and openly states she is willing to do.

[quote]

LOL you mean those geth who just want to be left alone and build a big enlightenment container? Archer worked off a faulty premise, as does most of the galaxy. That doesn't make him bad; it's forcing his brother to merge with an AI that makes him "guilty" in the game. [/quote]No, I mean the geth who brutally invaded the Alliance two years back, razed a colony to the ground, and have been working with the Reapers to eliminate all life in the galaxy.

The only geth anyone knew about upto near the very end of ME2.


[quote]
Samara justifies her actions by her adherence to the Code, which is as good as a measure of moral virtue as any other belief system in existence.[/quote]How about 'how many people is this person killing regularly'? 

Life, after all, strikes me as a sound basis for building any moral system.

[quote]
Let's be absolutely clear. The Justicar Code exists to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. It doesn't exist for personal enlightenment or to make someone a morally good person.
[/quote]Bar the 'protecting the innocent' from what we seen, when it's rather 'I won't let the innocent get killed in front of me, unless they are in any way resisting me', I fully agree it is neither enlightening nor good. And it troubles me that it is accepted by Paragon Sheps, and that it in turn identifies with Paragon alignment.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...
]
You do not have free choice as a Justicar. That defeats the very purpose of a Justicar.

No, you do have free choice. You have the ability to choose, and to break those vows.

That Justicars don't does not mean they can't. I can't think of a moral standard in the world, let alone a 'paragon' standard in the game, in which 'I'm just following the orders laid out above me' absolves of responsibility.

Paragon does not equal "good" or "nice"  paragon=follows the rules.  "Lawful" alignment, if you will.  Morality simply doesn't enter the equation.

"I answer to a code that is clearly defined.  If my actions are true to that code, I am just.  If they are not, I am unjust."

Paragon has never been lawful. Paragon is just as willing to break the law, let known criminals walk free, and turn a blind eye and cover up inconvenient evidence for friends and allies.

Samara follows her Codes, regardless of circumstances.  Justice must be enforced, the rules followed.  Renegades have no need for such rules.  But a paragon who takes things to extremes, well, at some point paragon and renegade sorta bend back around and start to look alike:

The Renegades enforce justice on more people than the paragons. How many criminals do paragons let walk away, where Renegades shoot?

Paragons don't take things to extremes. The most significant attribute of paragons is moderation and compromise. The point Paragons take things to extremes, they are already Renegades.

"In this age, people see shades of grey everywhere.  The Code of the justicar is black and white.  I might seem a hero to many, but I would kill all of them if I had to"

When the 'had to' is 'if they break the law', how is this Paragon?

[Christmas Ape]

secular [ˈsɛkjʊlə]

adj

1. of or relating to worldly as opposed to sacred things; temporal

2. not concerned with or related to religion

On the subject of things that boggle the mind...

Are you using "secular religion" to mean "a religion which occurs or appears once in an age or century", or are you just abusing that word like it owed you money?

[Dean_the_Young]

Christmas Ape wrote...

secular [ˈsɛkjʊlə]
adj
1. of or relating to worldly as opposed to sacred things; temporal
2. not concerned with or related to religion

On the subject of things that boggle the mind...
Are you using "secular religion" to mean "a religion which occurs or appears once in an age or century", or are you just abusing that word like it owed you money?

Linky



A longer article going into more of the idea behind it.


In short, non-religious ideas, beliefs, ideologies, and fascinations can fill traditionally religious spots for people in many traditionally religious-only ways. Two historic secular religions have been the Marxist Historic Determinism, and cults of personality (even of non-religious figures).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 novembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Christmas Ape]

Conceptually accepted.

Applying it whole cloth to philosophy, as you introduced it, stretches both the application of the word 'religion' and (intentionally?) invites misunderstanding of your point. As I first recall your name regarding a back-and-forth of posters using 'Reaper technology' to mean 'Reaper devices' and you refusing to accept the argument until they used a different word, I'd think a certain amount of linguistic precision was a priority of yours.

And I contend we know too little about the Code to specify if it counts. It is certainly a philosophy with proscribed rules of behaviour, but not all philosophies are religions. Even secular ones.

Further Addendum: "Find peace in the arms of the Goddess" is no more inherently religious than any of Shepard's "Go to hell!"s. It's as likely to be cultural linguistic baggage as it is an expression of faith - contrary to some fringe dreams, the age of avowed atheists swearing "by Science!" is a long way off.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Conceptually accepted.

Applying it whole cloth to philosophy, as you introduced it, stretches both the application of the word 'religion' and (intentionally?) invites misunderstanding of your point. As I first recall your name regarding a back-and-forth of posters using 'Reaper technology' to mean 'Reaper devices' and you refusing to accept the argument until they used a different word, I'd think a certain amount of linguistic precision was a priority of yours.

I disputed their use of 'Reaper technology' because they were continually inconsistent about it whenever their own descriptions of it didn't meet their arguments.

Secular religion is an already established term that's been in use for years. If you didn't know it, it was only a google search away.

And I contend we know too little about the Code to specify if it counts. It is certainly a philosophy with proscribed rules of behaviour, but not all philosophies are religions. Even secular ones.

Given that the Codes is indsiputably a dogma, the Justicar Order does have a system of indoctrination, is based around the prescription of an absolute code of conduct, has designated enemies, and other such characteristics of religions...

We can qualify the Code as a secular religion for Samara.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In short, non-religious ideas, beliefs, ideologies, and fascinations can fill traditionally religious spots for people in many traditionally religious-only ways. Two historic secular religions have been the Marxist Historic Determinism, and cults of personality (even of non-religious figures).

Wow. In B4 lock. Although this approach has some worthy points, ulitimately "secular religion" is a misleading oxymoron.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I disagree; the term is quite valid, as it fulfills exactly the same role that regular religion does, just with a different style.