305 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Paragon has never been lawful. Paragon is just as willing to break the law, let known criminals walk free, and turn a blind eye and cover up inconvenient evidence for friends and allies.[/quote]

Actually, a paragon is far less willing to break the law, etc.  Not that a paragon may not be forced by circumstance to act otherwise.  Particularly if they are not bound by such a rigid set of laws as the Code of the justicar.  I mean, isn't the standard paragon option at Tali's loyalty mission to expose Rael'Zorah's activities and get him convicted of treason, despite Tali's express wishes to take the fall for him?

[quote]
Paragons don't take things to extremes. The most significant attribute of paragons is moderation and compromise. The point Paragons take things to extremes, they are already Renegades.[/quote]

The attribute for paragons is to do things right.  To follow the procedure.  Alliance and Citadel law may encourage moderation and compromise.  But that's their rules. Not the Code's

The attribute for renegades is "get the job done, regardless" How doesn't matter.  If such was Samara's case, she never would have allowed herself to be taken into custody.

[quote]
"In this age, people see shades of grey everywhere.  The Code of the justicar is black and white.  I might seem a hero to many, but I would kill all of them if I had to"
[/quote]When the 'had to' is 'if they break the law', how is this Paragon?
[/quote]

Because they broke the law to a degree that the Code says they must die.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Paragon has never been lawful. Paragon is just as willing to break the law, let known criminals walk free, and turn a blind eye and cover up inconvenient evidence for friends and allies.[/quote]

Actually, a paragon is far less willing to break the law, etc.  Not that a paragon may not be forced by circumstance to act otherwise.  Particularly if they are not bound by such a rigid set of laws as the Code of the justicar.  I mean, isn't the standard paragon option at Tali's loyalty mission to expose Rael'Zorah's activities and get him convicted of treason, despite Tali's express wishes to take the fall for him?[/quote]No. Paragon hides the evidence. Renegade brings the war crime to justice.
[quote]
[quote]
Paragons don't take things to extremes. The most significant attribute of paragons is moderation and compromise. The point Paragons take things to extremes, they are already Renegades.[/quote]

The attribute for paragons is to do things right.  To follow the procedure.  Alliance and Citadel law may encourage moderation and compromise.  But that's their rules. Not the Code's[/quote]Alliance and Council law is to let criminals like Fist, Tali's father, the crime lord, to get off scott free?

[quote]
The attribute for renegades is "get the job done, regardless" How doesn't matter.  If such was Samara's case, she never would have allowed herself to be taken into custody.[/quote]Samara not being Renegade does not make her Paragon by default. It works no better than 'because Samara is ruthless and does not show compromise and mercy, the attribute of Paragons, she is Renegade.'

[quote]
[quote]
"In this age, people see shades of grey everywhere.  The Code of the justicar is black and white.  I might seem a hero to many, but I would kill all of them if I had to"
[/quote]When the 'had to' is 'if they break the law', how is this Paragon?
[/quote]

Because they broke the law to a degree that the Code says they must die.[/quote]That doesn't make it paragon. That just makes it lawful... which many Paragons aren't.

[Xilizhra]

No. Paragon hides the evidence. Renegade brings the war crime to justice.

Stronger Renegade also hides the evidence and just yells at the admirals.



Also, it's not part of the justicar code to make other people follow it, and while Paragon Shepard may break the law sometimes, it's never to harm innocents.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

No. Paragon hides the evidence. Renegade brings the war crime to justice.

Stronger Renegade also hides the evidence and just yells at the admirals.

'Default,'  then.

The point remains, the only way to bring the truth to light is considered a renegade act.

Also, it's not part of the justicar code to make other people follow it,

No, it kind of is the Justicar Code to enforce the laws and force others to abide by them.

and while Paragon Shepard may break the law sometimes, it's never to harm innocents.

One step above Samara.

Though I'm confused where a Renegade sets out to harm innocents.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

No. Paragon hides the evidence. Renegade brings the war crime to justice.

Stronger Renegade also hides the evidence and just yells at the admirals.

No. Stronger Renegade can yell at the Admirals, but doesn't. He presents the evidence to them to prevent the Quarians from going to war with the Geth. Also because Divide & Conquer.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The point remains, the only way to bring the truth to light is considered a renegade act.

That's because it's being a jerk to Tali. Simple as that.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Xilizhra]

No, it kind of is the Justicar Code to enforce the laws and force others to abide by them.

The law, not the thousands of sutras in the Code itself. The Code has huge numbers of rules that aren't law for normal people.

One step above Samara.

I'm curious; do you choose Morinth over Samara? I ask this without any kind of implied judgment, only curiosity.

Though I'm confused where a Renegade sets out to harm innocents.

By simply not caring. Shooting through Tela's hostage, letting Vido's workers burn to death...

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, it kind of is the Justicar Code to enforce the laws and force others to abide by them.

The law, not the thousands of sutras in the Code itself. The Code has huge numbers of rules that aren't law for normal people.

Since this was never asserted, I'm confused as to why you brought it up.

By simply not caring. Shooting through Tela's hostage, letting Vido's workers burn to death...

Tela's hostage I'll give you, but I was under the impression someone else put Vido's prisoners in danger. Someone who, say, committed a crime and took them hostage in the first place.

...nah, it can't be Vido's fault for setting up that situation.

[Xilizhra]

Since this was never asserted, I'm confused as to why you brought it up.

Because I said that it wasn't part of the Code to make others follow it, and you disagreed.

Tela's hostage I'll give you, but I was under the impression someone else put Vido's prisoners in danger. Someone who, say, committed a crime and took them hostage in the first place.

It wouldn't make Samara like you any more. She, in this situation, would have taken the Paragon option, as she did with Nihlus.



And I repeat my Morinth question.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Since this was never asserted, I'm confused as to why you brought it up.

Because I said that it wasn't part of the Code to make others follow it, and you disagreed.

Because I thought the context was about the law in general.

Tela's hostage I'll give you, but I was under the impression someone else put Vido's prisoners in danger. Someone who, say, committed a crime and took them hostage in the first place.

It wouldn't make Samara like you any more. She, in this situation, would have taken the Paragon option, as she did with Nihlus.

And, on Feros, she would have killed the civilians, just as she killed Morinth's bewitched civilians. 'Coerced resistance' isn't 'innocent' to her.

There are times when Paragon is closer to her code. But there are, at the same time, many times when the Renegade is closer. Why does the instances of hostage situations, specifically) prove her closer to Paragon?

And I repeat my Morinth question.

It's irrelevant and a blatant thread derailment. Start a separate thread if you want.

[Xilizhra]

Because I thought the context was about the law in general.

Then it was a simple misunderstanding.

And, on Feros, she would have killed the civilians, just as she killed Morinth's bewitched civilians. 'Coerced resistance' isn't 'innocent' to her.

Granted; any active resistance is a license for her to plow through.

There are times when Paragon is closer to her code. But there are, at the same time, many times when the Renegade is closer. Why does the instances of hostage situations, specifically) prove her closer to Paragon?

Mostly because it shows off the Renegade disregard for innocent life if it interferes with a mission. Which is different from coerced resistance because... something in the Code, I suppose.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

And, on Feros, she would have killed the civilians, just as she killed Morinth's bewitched civilians. 'Coerced resistance' isn't 'innocent' to her.

Granted; any active resistance is a license for her to plow through.

That's the biggest demarcation between Paragon Shepards and Samara. Resistance isn't instantly deserving of a death penalty.

There are times when Paragon is closer to her code. But there are, at the same time, many times when the Renegade is closer. Why does the instances of hostage situations, specifically) prove her closer to Paragon?

Mostly because it shows off the Renegade disregard for innocent life if it interferes with a mission. Which is different from coerced resistance because... something in the Code, I suppose.

Not good enough if it isn't explained.

As I've said, I have no real issue with the Paragon handling, except in so much that the Renegade handling is so contrasted so badly.

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps it's just another one of ME2's numerous writing flaws, then. But I don't think it's a huge one.

[Dean_the_Young]

Huge? Only for a single character. But yes, I very much think it's poor writing.



Then again, I also think Morinth was poor writing.

[Hoki]

I agree Samara is in no way a paragon, is much more in tune with renegades.

Like the OP said, if her code said to eat all babies she would be chowing down on some babies right now. She would have murdered that police force if you will recall, doing FAR more harm than good.

You guys may find that my killing Samara instead of her daughter as being renegade, but I have thought about it for a while and its actually the paragon thing to do.

Both Samara and her daughter are mass murderers, but only Morinth is capable of being rehabilitated.

Samara will continue to murder in the name of her code until she is killed. Morinth may just need a life of excitement, with danger, sex, and drugs. Hell, she's practically Jack. They're two perfect companions for shepard, as if you are looking for sex and violence, you've come to the right ship!

Plus I did a playthrough with Samara being saved and she said she'd like to go murder people in omega and possibly spread her vigilante religion to other races and cultures there as a result. This would be an unforgivable offense, to allow the dissemination of such a violent and murderous code.

So if you want to be a true paragon, you must KILL SAMARA!

[Hoki]

Also my contribution to what a Paragon is in ME/ME2:



Paragons often break the law, so they are not aligned with lawful. I wouldn't describe them as do-gooders either, as they often place trust in untrustworthy individuals that may end up hurting innocents.



I would describe paragons as overly-trusting, sympathetic, apologists, because thats how I interpret all of the blue text options. Its usually some kind of sympathy, or manipulation through apologistic ego stroking, or just trusting an unproven *ally*.



In ME/ME2 every possition where you can blindly trust somebody is rewarded. I hope bioware fans can distinguish fantasy from real life. Maybe put a disclaimer in the game. "WARNING: TRUSTING UNTRUSTWORTHY PEOPLE IN REAL LIFE MAY PROOVE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!"



Or the paragon route for if somebody bucks up on you is some cowardly manipulation. Someone threatens you, and then you say "hay, maybe you shouldn't do that because of xyz, pretty please? you have a huge P as well." and then they are like "oh yeah, you're right, I'm sorry" like you performed a jedi mind trick on them or something.



Or if you finally get the upper hand on somebody that was putting your life or someone elses life in danger, the paragon thing to do is now be sympathetic to their possition and blindly trust them to be good upstanding citizens now.



It'd be more interesting if there was a random 50/50 chance that these trustworthy/sympathetic acts backfired on you.

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps more interesting for you. I quite enjoy this. I also find it quite amusing that you think that peaceful solutions are cowardly manipulation.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 novembre 2010 - 11:03 .

[Hoki]

Because a lot of them are. When you're talking to someone thats showing utter contempt and disrespect to you, and standing up for yourself is considered *renegade* instead of normal, while the blue text goody good paragon route is to apologize and offer bj in hopes of peaceful resolution.



Not all paragon routes are cowardice but many are when it comes down to confrontation. Shepard shows more backbone when paragon texting for someone else's behalf, but when it comes to standing up for herself she'd rather risk everything and attempt to appease.

[Christmas Ape]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Tela's hostage I'll give you, but I was under the impression someone else put Vido's prisoners in danger. Someone who, say, committed a crime and took them hostage in the first place.

...nah, it can't be Vido's fault for setting up that situation.

Indeed not, given that Zorya is actually the Blue Suns 'home office', and they're not so much hostages as workers. Zaeed lied to you; you are raiding the Blue Suns home office to kill their lead administrator. There are no hostages, and Eldfell-Ashland isn't paying him a damn penny. It's a pure revenge hit.

[Stazro]

Hoki wrote...

I agree Samara is in no way a paragon, is much more in tune with renegades.

Like the OP said, if her code said to eat all babies she would be chowing down on some babies right now. She would have murdered that police force if you will recall, doing FAR more harm than good.

You guys may find that my killing Samara instead of her daughter as being renegade, but I have thought about it for a while and its actually the paragon thing to do.

Both Samara and her daughter are mass murderers, but only Morinth is capable of being rehabilitated.

Samara will continue to murder in the name of her code until she is killed. Morinth may just need a life of excitement, with danger, sex, and drugs. Hell, she's practically Jack. They're two perfect companions for shepard, as if you are looking for sex and violence, you've come to the right ship!

Plus I did a playthrough with Samara being saved and she said she'd like to go murder people in omega and possibly spread her vigilante religion to other races and cultures there as a result. This would be an unforgivable offense, to allow the dissemination of such a violent and murderous code.

So if you want to be a true paragon, you must KILL SAMARA!

I concur as far as I see Samara by her actions more a Renegade than a Paragon, although that is not exclusive (remember the Nihlus-Situation, when she chose to let him go to save the civilians, clearly a Paragon choice).
If we set aside how her deeds are viewed from an observer, she's even more renegade. Think about it, she has a goal and she will do anything necessary to achieve that, which is exactly how I picture a renegade Shepard (I'm not a fan of the system, but we have to live with it).

But you can't be serious claiming that saving Morinth instead of her is a Paragon thing to do.
Morinth cannot be rehabilitated and especially a life of danger, sex and drugs can't do that. You remember, the sex is the deadly thing about Morinth? She has a volatile nature, she is a user and as an Ardat-Yakshi she hungers to feed off the strength of others (man, this is a Stargate Atlantis moment) in order to strengthen herself (that is what allows her to stand up to Samara, centuries senior to her, in the first place). The only reason she chooses to travel with Shepard and restrain herself is because she hopes to savour his/her strength, because Shepard is the strongest person she has ever met.
The Asari know of one way and one way only to control the nature of an Ardat-Yakshi: A life of reclusion and there is no going back for Morinth after she addicted herself.

Samara kills, if her code commands it and it may befall innocents. But in the end the code is about achieving a just and good society. If killing innocents is necessary to do so, that is nothing a full renegade Shepard wouldn't do himself.

Samara is renegade, but Morinth is evil. She kills for her own pleasure and power and cares for nothing but herself.

Modifié par Stazro, 07 novembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[AntiChri5]

I agree Samara is in no way a paragon, is much more in tune with renegades.



Like the OP said, if her code said to eat all babies she would be chowing down on some babies right now. She would have murdered that police force if you will recall, doing FAR more harm than good.



You guys may find that my killing Samara instead of her daughter as being renegade, but I have thought about it for a while and its actually the paragon thing to do.



Both Samara and her daughter are mass murderers, but only Morinth is capable of being rehabilitated.



Samara will continue to murder in the name of her code until she is killed. Morinth may just need a life of excitement, with danger, sex, and drugs. Hell, she's practically Jack. They're two perfect companions for shepard, as if you are looking for sex and violence, you've come to the right ship!



Plus I did a playthrough with Samara being saved and she said she'd like to go murder people in omega and possibly spread her vigilante religion to other races and cultures there as a result. This would be an unforgivable offense, to allow the dissemination of such a violent and murderous code.



So if you want to be a true paragon, you must KILL SAMARA!

There is so much wrong with this post, i don't even know where to start.

[Homebound]

Ive always thought Samara was a Paragade...

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Especially the assertion that Samara would have no issue against a Paragon Shepard. It confuses me. It truly, honestly, does. Especially given how many people claim to really like her.

*snip*

I don't get it. Or rather, I might, but I don't want to attribute it to poor writing and analysis. Samara shouldn't be aligned with Paragon in any respect. Nor should she be aligned with Renegade. She is most definitely neither, in word and action.

Samara is pretty much same as Specter, can be anything she wants.

[Zulu_DFA]

Samara is her Code. The Walking version.

So although her methods are often renegade-ish (jerkish), her goals are paragon (goody-goody).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 novembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Nightwriter]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I agree Samara is in no way a paragon, is much more in tune with renegades.

Like the OP said, if her code said to eat all babies she would be chowing down on some babies right now. She would have murdered that police force if you will recall, doing FAR more harm than good.

You guys may find that my killing Samara instead of her daughter as being renegade, but I have thought about it for a while and its actually the paragon thing to do.

Both Samara and her daughter are mass murderers, but only Morinth is capable of being rehabilitated.

Samara will continue to murder in the name of her code until she is killed. Morinth may just need a life of excitement, with danger, sex, and drugs. Hell, she's practically Jack. They're two perfect companions for shepard, as if you are looking for sex and violence, you've come to the right ship!

Plus I did a playthrough with Samara being saved and she said she'd like to go murder people in omega and possibly spread her vigilante religion to other races and cultures there as a result. This would be an unforgivable offense, to allow the dissemination of such a violent and murderous code.

So if you want to be a true paragon, you must KILL SAMARA!

There is so much wrong with this post, i don't even know where to start.

I actually began to write a response, then I said, "No, there is too much."