305 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Justice as per her code, there's a difference. I suppose the murder of an entire police station, had Shepard  not interveened classifies as paragon behaviour as well? 

We don't know how that would have really played out. She may have been bluffing. Also, it was not clear precisely what charges she would have been detained on. Suspician of future disurbances of the peace is not a charge.

Resisting a false arrest is one of those tricky situations that may or may not result in conviction, and it is not a given that Samara would have fired first.

[Moiaussi]

Hoki wrote...

But its not about intentions, its about results.

What does it matter if you're intentions are good if the result is a police station full of dead cops, or worse if the actions of these zealots results in inter-species war/conflict?

I'm not saying Morinth and Samara are the same, one may be selfless and the other selfish, but they're both dangerous murderers in the end and both must either be put down or rehabilitated.
Morinth can theoretically rehabilitated, Samara will never be.

But what about said police station itself? What crime has Samara actually committed to detain her on? Appearantly it is perfectly legal for Shepard (the police officer doesn't even admonish him even without Spectre status) to do exactly what Samara would have done, so it is really just a non-charge of some politician feeling she is potentially bad publicity.

[Hoki]

Idk I thought it was pretty clear that the police chief would have to prevent Samara from leaving the station so soon, and that Samara would thus have to kill the chief because she was getting in the way of the code.



So basically The Code's authority supercedes any particular civilization's authority when they butt heads.



Why she'll swear an oath to an individual force commander and not a government authority, I don't know, it doesn't make any sense.



All I know is if (in my first playthrough) she didn't swear the oath I'd have her off my ship. People that do not recognize authority when its staring them in the face are dangerous.

[Moiaussi]

Hoki wrote...

Idk I thought it was pretty clear that the police chief would have to prevent Samara from leaving the station so soon, and that Samara would thus have to kill the chief because she was getting in the way of the code.

So basically The Code's authority supercedes any particular civilization's authority when they butt heads.

Why she'll swear an oath to an individual force commander and not a government authority, I don't know, it doesn't make any sense.

All I know is if (in my first playthrough) she didn't swear the oath I'd have her off my ship. People that do not recognize authority when its staring them in the face are dangerous.

But why would Samara be prevented? On what grounds would she be detained? Does 'civilization's authority' extend to arbitrary detainment of anyone they choose? If he same threat was made at Shepard, how would you react as Shep?

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Justice as per her code, there's a difference. I suppose the murder of an entire police station, had Shepard  not interveened classifies as paragon behaviour as well? 

We don't know how that would have really played out. She may have been bluffing.

Yes. Samara, the Justicar, was lying to the police officer about how she would break out of the police station by force if they held her any longer than her one day of cooperation.

She was totally bluffing, and just swore herself to Shepard for kicks and giggles. The fact that the police fully believed that she would is completely baseless.


Give me a break, Moiassui. We both know the story is an honest narrative and doesn't lie to us about what it tells us unless it gives the truth shortly after. She was going to do it.

Also, it was not clear precisely what charges she would have been detained on. Suspician of future disurbances of the peace is not a charge.

It doesn't need to be a charge. It was the reason she was detained, and she was detained for just that reason.

She wasn't under arrest. She was ordered detained so she wouldn't stumble across some casual law-breaker and be obligated to kill them. Being detained does not give her the right to blow up a sation and kill police officers in an attempt to leave.

Resisting a false arrest is one of those tricky situations that may or may not result in conviction, and it is not a given that Samara would have fired first.

She promised to fight her way out of a police station charged with holding her.

She was going to do it if Shepard hadn't stepped in, by her own assertion. She wasn't going to back down, and the Detective already made clear she was going to follow her orders.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...
But why would Samara be prevented? On what grounds would she be detained?

The grounds that she was detained, for the reasons she was.

Does 'civilization's authority' extend to arbitrary detainment of anyone they choose?

Samara's detainment was hardly basless and arbitrary, and you know it.

If he same threat was made at Shepard, how would you react as Shep?

How does Shepard's response change one way or another the validity of Samara's acts?

If Shepard is right or wrong in his circumstances is irrelevant to Samara's validity.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[Hoki]

Moiaussi wrote...

Hoki wrote...

But its not about intentions, its about results.

What does it matter if you're intentions are good if the result is a police station full of dead cops, or worse if the actions of these zealots results in inter-species war/conflict?

I'm not saying Morinth and Samara are the same, one may be selfless and the other selfish, but they're both dangerous murderers in the end and both must either be put down or rehabilitated.
Morinth can theoretically rehabilitated, Samara will never be.

But what about said police station itself? What crime has Samara actually committed to detain her on? Appearantly it is perfectly legal for Shepard (the police officer doesn't even admonish him even without Spectre status) to do exactly what Samara would have done, so it is really just a non-charge of some politician feeling she is potentially bad publicity.

Spectres adhere to the Council, a galactic government that many races abide by. To go against a spectre is to go against the council and all it's protected races. Shepard answers to the council, the highest government, and is therefore trustworthy.

Samara does not answer to the council, she answers to The Code. Reasoning for arresting Samara is thus easy, she is a known Justicar and will not adhere to the rules of any government. That is reason enough to detain her until she either returns to asari space where she is a locally recognized authority, or until she swears an oath to obey the law of the land.

If the chief tried to detain Shepard:
C: "You're under arrest."
S: "I'm a spectre, under who's authority am I under arrest?"
C: "Oh, nvm!"

[AntiChri5]

Hoki said.....

Like the OP said, if her code said to eat all babies she would be chowing down on some babies right now.

And if the renegade thing to do was eat babies renegade shepard would eat babies. You know what? It isn't. You can't change something and then use that as evidence of how it is evil. 

Hoki said.....She would have murdered that police force if you will recall, doing FAR more harm than good.

Not murdered, killed. Which is exactly what Shepard would do. They have no grounds to detain her because "she might upset someone".

Hoki said.....

You guys may find that my killing Samara instead of her daughter as being renegade, but I have thought about it for a while and its actually the paragon thing to do.

Then you need to think a little more. If it is a paragon thing to do, why does it award more then 50 renegade points and absolutely no paragon points? Either the text which defines what is paragon and what is renegade is wrong or you are.

Hoki said.....

Both Samara and her daughter are mass murderers, but only Morinth is capable of being rehabilitated.

And what is your basis for thinking this? Samara is a mature woman who has chosen a philosophy which includes executing criminals. Morinth kills for sexual gratification. Samara was not always a Justicar, Morinth always has and always will be an Ardat-Yakshi. And again, Samara is not a murderer. She is a killer.

Hoki said.....

Samara will continue to murder in the name of her code until she is killed. Morinth may just need a life of excitement, with danger, sex, and drugs. Hell, she's practically Jack. They're two perfect companions for shepard, as if you are looking for sex and violence, you've come to the right ship!

You have a very flawed view if Samara, Morinth, Jack and Shepard.

Hoki said.....

Plus I did a playthrough with Samara being saved and she said she'd like to go murder people in omega

She wants to go to a lawless space station and kill the brutal criminals who prey on innocents. Just like Garrus did. Did you kill him for that?

Hoki said.....

and possibly spread her vigilante religion to other races and cultures there as a result. This would be an unforgivable offense, to allow the dissemination of such a violent and murderous code.

As has been stated already, it is not a religion. And she says herself there are very few Justicars. Everything we know about Samara and the order strongly suggests they are not interested in recruiting.

Hoki said.....So if you want to be a true paragon, you must KILL SAMARA!

Outright fabrication.

[Hoki]

yorkj86 wrote...

Hoki wrote...

Samara does not answer to the council, she answers to The Code. Reasoning for arresting Samara is thus easy, she is a known Justicar and will not adhere to the rules of any government. That is reason enough to detain her until she either returns to asari space where she is a locally recognized authority, or until she swears an oath to obey the law of the land.

lolwut.  Justicars obey the Code, a judicial construct of the asari.  Justicars know not to expect that they'll be welcome outside of asari space.  Their judgment and actions are considered valid by the asari, within asari space.  Thus, asari space is valid jurisdiction for both Justicars and Spectres.

Thats what I said.

Modifié par Hoki, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

[Yes. Samara, the Justicar, was lying to the police officer about how she would break out of the police station by force if they held her any longer than her one day of cooperation.

She was totally bluffing, and just swore herself to Shepard for kicks and giggles. The fact that the police fully believed that she would is completely baseless.

Give me a break, Moiassui. We both know the story is an honest narrative and doesn't lie to us about what it tells us unless it gives the truth shortly after. She was going to do it.

Because a code that has survived that long and is still accepted well into the modern age obviously has no flexibility? And if she bluffs about having to take down the officer, she must therefore lie about *everything?* Pardon?

It doesn't need to be a charge. It was the reason she was detained, and she was detained for just that reason.

She wasn't under arrest. She was ordered detained so she wouldn't stumble across some casual law-breaker and be obligated to kill them. Being detained does not give her the right to blow up a sation and kill police officers in an attempt to leave.

So Asari police have the ability to incarcerate indefinately without ever laying a charge? Pardon? If Shepard was treated that way, I take it you would have been happy to have him just sit in the police station forever while you just twiddled your thumbs? Give it a break. If she is incarcerated illegally, and prevented any ability to defend herself legally, you are saying she would be committing an unforgivable crime for breaking out?

She promised to fight her way out of a police station charged with holding her.

She was going to do it if Shepard hadn't stepped in, by her own assertion. She wasn't going to back down, and the Detective already made clear she was going to follow her orders.

You are arguing in circles. You are saying they were in the right holding her because they were holding her. "Just in case" isn't a charge. Even if it is a charge, it is arguably as corrupt as anyone else she might take down.

[Moiaussi]

yorkj86 wrote...

Almost.  As a Justicar, she obeys the rules of asari government.  Thus, she obeys the rule of a government.  You said she obeys the rules of no government.

Also, read my edit.

More than that. The Asari courts appearantly accept the word of a justicar regarding evidence they only know as heresay as sustainable (Samara vouching for the information Shepard brings back regarding the killer).

That implies that not only does she obey Asari rule, but is arguably considered an officer of the court herself.

[Hoki]

yorkj86 wrote...
EDIT: As for Samara threatening to kill her way out of jail for being detained, the Justicars likely view being detained as an obstruction of justice, beyond the 24 hours they permit themselves to be detained, as per the prescriptions of the Oaths of Subsumation.

Yes but only the asari recognize their authority in the first place. You don't get to leave jail just because you read a book that says you're special and you get to leave now. You go through the process or break out and become an enemy of the state.

Also I recongized that her authority is recognized in asari space, but that does not mean that she adheres to any government. She adheres strictly to the code, thats totally different. Asari basically treat justicars as a force of nature, if you don't like what they do, tough crap. If you create a law that butts heads with the code, it basically applies to everyone except justicars. The asari are ok with justicars being omitted from their laws, so justicars are the equivelent of judge dreads in asari space.

But what if the asari judge dreads leave asari space and visit omega?

[AntiChri5]

Omega sure as hell needs a few Justicars.

[TuringPoint]

Not to take one side or the other, but a few observations:



Samara stays in Asari space, as do justicars commonly. That impacts the argument about Samara in non-asari space pretty significantly.



It was very unusual for Samara to be on Ilium, which was Asari space technically - just on the outer fringes.



She did this because she had a mission.This is not unlike a selfish person who only wants to survive. Both have a focus, actually, and are not particularly pre-meditated until something dictates action - whether for pleasure, survival, or to best follow the code.



So, Dean, I think you overlooked something. ^



I also would like to mention that Morinth is willing to doom the galaxy to the extinction cycle by melding with Shepard, if Shepard desires it. She might not force Shepard to do anything like that, but there you go.



And if the developers had allowed you to free Morinth if you couldn't resist her "charm," just judging from what we know of the nature of her selfishness and selfishness in general is that she would kill Shepard readily enough for her momentary pleasure. Which may be exactly why the developers did that scene the peculiar way they did.



And if, perhaps, Morinth decided not to kill Shepard... say out of loyalty for Shepard helping her, she would be acting altruistically, and thus in the only way that actually benefits herself and another, and even many more.

[Hoki]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Hoki said.....
Like the OP said, if her code said to eat all babies she would be chowing down on some babies right now.

And if the renegade thing to do was eat babies renegade shepard would eat babies. You know what? It isn't. You can't change something and then use that as evidence of how it is evil. 

Hoki said.....She would have murdered that police force if you will recall, doing FAR more harm than good.

Not murdered, killed. Which is exactly what Shepard would do. They have no grounds to detain her because "she might upset someone".

Hoki said.....
You guys may find that my killing Samara instead of her daughter as being renegade, but I have thought about it for a while and its actually the paragon thing to do.

Then you need to think a little more. If it is a paragon thing to do, why does it award more then 50 renegade points and absolutely no paragon points? Either the text which defines what is paragon and what is renegade is wrong or you are.

Hoki said.....
Both Samara and her daughter are mass murderers, but only Morinth is capable of being rehabilitated.

And what is your basis for thinking this? Samara is a mature woman who has chosen a philosophy which includes executing criminals. Morinth kills for sexual gratification. Samara was not always a Justicar, Morinth always has and always will be an Ardat-Yakshi. And again, Samara is not a murderer. She is a killer.

Hoki said.....
Samara will continue to murder in the name of her code until she is killed. Morinth may just need a life of excitement, with danger, sex, and drugs. Hell, she's practically Jack. They're two perfect companions for shepard, as if you are looking for sex and violence, you've come to the right ship!

You have a very flawed view if Samara, Morinth, Jack and Shepard.

Hoki said.....
Plus I did a playthrough with Samara being saved and she said she'd like to go murder people in omega

She wants to go to a lawless space station and kill the brutal criminals who prey on innocents. Just like Garrus did. Did you kill him for that?

Hoki said.....
and possibly spread her vigilante religion to other races and cultures there as a result. This would be an unforgivable offense, to allow the dissemination of such a violent and murderous code.

As has been stated already, it is not a religion. And she says herself there are very few Justicars. Everything we know about Samara and the order strongly suggests they are not interested in recruiting.

Hoki said.....So if you want to be a true paragon, you must KILL SAMARA!

Outright fabrication.

You can replaced murdered with killed if it makes you feel better about murdering I guess.

Paragon and Renegade are rewarded for many arbitrary and debatable things. Some decisions that were made in ME1 for example could have lead to untold numbers are people being killed, but it was rewarded with paragon. (letting the rachni queen loose)
The decision to destroy saren's cure for the genophage is treated as if it is the right thing to do in ME2 where its often the upper-right text. And then its unavoidable to agree with Modrin's padawan when you confront him, suggesting that curing the genophage is wrong if it means sacrificing volunteers. A situation I was fully satisfied to let continue, but was not given the option.
You can't take decisions that reward paragon or renegade seriously, you have to make your own decision on what is the right thing to do, not blindly choose the blue text.

I'm not going to disagree with you on Morinth or Jack, they're both murderers that have killed innocents, but so has Samara. Samara has killed people that some cultures would consider innocents.
Jack can be tamed she just needs to be kept on a short leash, same way I think about Morinth she just needs to be leashed. Whereas Samara openly states that she intends to goto omega and unleash the code's version of justice upon its inhabitants.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

[Yes. Samara, the Justicar, was lying to the police officer about how she would break out of the police station by force if they held her any longer than her one day of cooperation.

She was totally bluffing, and just swore herself to Shepard for kicks and giggles. The fact that the police fully believed that she would is completely baseless.

Give me a break, Moiassui. We both know the story is an honest narrative and doesn't lie to us about what it tells us unless it gives the truth shortly after. She was going to do it.

Because a code that has survived that long and is still accepted well into the modern age obviously has no flexibility? And if she bluffs about having to take down the officer, she must therefore lie about *everything?* Pardon?

Uncompromising and unyeilding is pretty much the defining trait of the Justicars.

The police certainly believed her to carry through. What in thegame makes you think Samara wasn't going to do just what she said she would?

So Asari police have the ability to incarcerate indefinately without ever laying a charge? Pardon?

Why not? They also have slavery.

If Shepard was treated that way, I take it you would have been happy to have him just sit in the police station forever while you just twiddled your thumbs? Give it a break.

My Shepards also make no claims to being Justicars or their code as moral justice. If either one believed they would just end up fighting their way out of an unacceptable detention in a day regardless, they wouldn't have let themselves be taken there in the first place.

If she is incarcerated illegally, and prevented any ability to defend herself legally, you are saying she would be committing an unforgivable crime for breaking out?

Yes. Acceptable responses depend on circumstances, but 'detention beyond 24 hours' does not justify 'blow up police station and kill police officers' without extenuating circumstances far beyond anything Samara can claim.

I'm amazed you would argue that evenan unjust detention gives the right to cop killing, even before you actually establish that her detention was unjust or unreasonable in the first place

You are arguing in circles. You are saying they were in the right holding her because they were holding her. "Just in case" isn't a charge. Even if it is a charge, it is arguably as corrupt as anyone else she might take down.

No, I said they had a right to hold her because they demonstrated that right. Neither Samara or anyone else contested that right to detain her.

The burden of proof of corruption lays on the accuser, not the police who detain her for fear of what she openly admits her Code compels her to do.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alocormin wrote...

Not to take one side or the other, but a few observations:

Samara stays in Asari space, as do justicars commonly. That impacts the argument about Samara in non-asari space pretty significantly.

It was very unusual for Samara to be on Ilium, which was Asari space technically - just on the outer fringes.

As these have never been parts I have argued about, I'll ignore them.

She did this because she had a mission.This is not unlike a selfish person who only wants to survive. Both have a focus, actually, and are not particularly pre-meditated until something dictates action - whether for pleasure, survival, or to best follow the code.

So, Dean, I think you overlooked something. ^

Which part?

Samara being selfish in her quest rather undermines other peoples primary justification in thefirst place: that she's unselfish, and so her crimes are somehow superior. If Shepard hadn't gotten her out of the situation, Samara's actions at the police station certainly would fall under pre-meditated.

I also would like to mention that Morinth is willing to doom the galaxy to the extinction cycle by melding with Shepard, if Shepard desires it. She might not force Shepard to do anything like that, but there you go.

One, this assumes Shepard is an indespensible man. Besides a gamer conceit (Shepard stopped being irreplacablein ME2 about the time the IFF was copied, if not sooner), it's an unknowable claim.

Second, Shepard can choose not to.

And if the developers had allowed you to free Morinth if you couldn't resist her "charm," just judging from what we know of the nature of her selfishness and selfishness in general is that she would kill Shepard readily enough for her momentary pleasure. Which may be exactly why the developers did that scene the peculiar way they did.

And if the developers made Samara try and kill you on your first meeting regardless...

Well, they didn't do that either. They also didn't make the Collectors win regardless of what you do. But if they had... it would remain just as irrelevant, because they can do anything but didn't.

And if, perhaps, Morinth decided not to kill Shepard... say out of loyalty for Shepard helping her, she would be acting altruistically, and thus in the only way that actually benefits herself and another, and even many more.

Go read up on ammorality before you claim that the only reason for a positive action benefiting others is altruism.

Selfish people often help others because that in turn makes them feel better. Altruism isn't entailed at any point. They aren't kind for kindness sake: they're kind for the feeling they get afterwards. Likewise, a selfish person can pass up stealing someone else's money not because they're selfless, but because they expect something (quid pro quo, for example) in return, and their actions are based on how others reactions will affect them.

[Hoki]

Justicars have no authority in Ilium, whats the argument?

If a police detains you and you want to leave early, it doesn't matter. You're detained.



If shepard didn't get her out of detention, Samara would have murdered several cops and then the Council would probably put a bounty on her head, and then Shepard would have to go.. hay wait a second, this is a GREAT idea!



Samara bounty hunting DLC please!

[AntiChri5]

You can replaced murdered with killed if it makes you feel better about murdering I guess.

There is an important difference. Morinth murders, Samara kills. Murder is defined as unlawful killing, in asari space it is perfectly legal for a Justicar to kill according to their code, and this is the first time Samara has left asari space since Justicarification.

By your definition, Shepard is a mass murderer as well.

Paragon and Renegade are rewarded for many arbitrary and debatable things. Some decisions that were made in ME1 for example could have lead to untold numbers are people being killed, but it was rewarded with paragon. (letting the rachni queen loose)

All choices can have an unpleasent outcome, and it is a constant paragon theme that they trust when they perhaps shouldn't.

The decision to destroy saren's cure for the genophage is treated as if it is the right thing to do in ME2 where its often the upper-right text. And then its unavoidable to agree with Modrin's padawan when you confront him, suggesting that curing the genophage is wrong if it means sacrificing volunteers. A situation I was fully satisfied to let continue, but was not given the option.

I think you are confusedmas to what happens in what game, and there is a big difference between the two situations. Besides, you actually want a second Krogan rebellion?

You can't take decisions that reward paragon or renegade seriously, you have to make your own decision on what is the right thing to do, not blindly choose the blue text.

What is paragon and renegade is decided by what awards you paragon and renegade points. There is no escaping this fact, that is how the game shows which is which. Whether or not you make the decision has no impact on whether it is paragon or renegade, and i make almost as many ren choices as par.

I'm not going to disagree with you on Morinth or Jack, they're both murderers that have killed innocents, but so has Samara. Samara has killed people that some cultures would consider innocents.

Jack can be tamed she just needs to be kept on a short leash, same way I think about Morinth she just needs to be leashed. Whereas Samara openly states that she intends to goto omega and unleash the code's version of justice upon its inhabitants.

Jack talks a big game, but how many people do we actually see her kill? Not many. Less then Miranda.

Morinth isn't controllable. At all.

And Samara going to Omega and massacring the galaxies worst criminal is a damn good thing.