127 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirlasvoud]

nremies1 wrote...

noni22 wrote...

here'a a picture of some ww2 marines http://a34.idata.ove...tapochao_lg.jpg
they're elite soldiers and have gone trough the toughest training...i don't see them having schwarzenegger's body. I know that this thread is about femshep, but you get my point

They look like that because endurance is FAR more important than raw physical strength to infantrymen...specifically, the ability to sprint and recover rapidly.  Sprint to cover, get your breathing under control and fire your weapon.  Get up, sprint to cover, repeat.

Even to lug around the heavier current-day stuff like an M240 or a Javelin, you don't have to be a giant.  You've just got to be 'strong enough' and that's leaner and harder than a regular person, yes, but not to the degree some people seem to think.

I say it's unnecessary to change Shepard's body type around, especially since she's not carrying that much into combat anyway.

I'd disagree on your statement that she doesn't carry around that much. My soldier Femshep carries a shotgun, assault rifle, heavy pistol, sniper rifle and even a missle launcher at all times off-board. At least two of these weapons are lauded to be able to break an ordinary man's arm for lack of strength when fired.  Oh, and have I mentioned the ceramic plates, metal and generators that her armor concists off? 
And to reiterate my previous counter argument, Femshep's a woman. If a woman endures the same amount of strain as a man, than she'll gain muscle mass relatively faster than a man would.

But I do agree fully after seeing that picture, that I may have overestimated the gains in muscle mass in someone who's endurance is the most important aspect of her survival. I work out myself and I know there's a strong difference between endurance vs. strength in phisique. Those crazy etheopian marathon runners and tour-de-france cyclists come to mind. In fact, I've come to concede enough to this, together with hints that the armor itself might add strength, that I accept your argument that Sheppard doesn't NEED to have a much more muscle.

Still, I have a personal preference , so I'm in favour. And I could still argue otherwise because a lot is left unclear to how much cybernetics and semi-robotics add. Sir Isaac Newton is not only the deadliest son of a **** in ME2 outer space, he's also the most confusing. I'm beginning to suspect that there's too many variables to make logic and physics work for us in argument.

But its still nice to debate about it and hear other people's reactions. I'm overwhelmed by how many people wouldn't mind more musculature on her. This fan likes at any rate.
 

 

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[Darkstar87uk]

Fem sheps look like barbie dolls they need to be like this

[Skirlasvoud]

Darkstar87uk wrote...

Fem sheps look like barbie dolls they need to be like this

*recoils*
Hehe, nice job freaking me out Darkstar, but that's not quite what I was going for. I'll pass on that. 

Every single picture leading up to your post? Yes please.
Yours? Not so much.

I suspect that one uses steroids also. And besides, that much mass becomes unwieldly for a woman braving a battlefield. It adds little more than physical appearance.

[nremies1]

Skirlasvoud wrote...

nremies1 wrote...

noni22 wrote...

here'a a picture of some ww2 marines http://a34.idata.ove...tapochao_lg.jpg
they're elite soldiers and have gone trough the toughest training...i don't see them having schwarzenegger's body. I know that this thread is about femshep, but you get my point

They look like that because endurance is FAR more important than raw physical strength to infantrymen...specifically, the ability to sprint and recover rapidly.  Sprint to cover, get your breathing under control and fire your weapon.  Get up, sprint to cover, repeat.

Even to lug around the heavier current-day stuff like an M240 or a Javelin, you don't have to be a giant.  You've just got to be 'strong enough' and that's leaner and harder than a regular person, yes, but not to the degree some people seem to think.

I say it's unnecessary to change Shepard's body type around, especially since she's not carrying that much into combat anyway.

I'd disagree on your statement that she doesn't carry around that much. My soldier Femshep carries a shotgun, assault rifle, heavy pistol, sniper rifle and even a missle launcher at all times off-board. At least two of these weapons are lauded to be able to break an ordinary man's arm for lack of strength when fired.  Oh, and have I mentioned the ceramic plates, metal and generators that her armor concists off? 
And to reiterate my previous counter argument, Femshep's a woman. If a woman endures the same amount of strain as a man, than she'll gain muscle mass relatively faster than a man would.

But I do agree fully after seeing that picture, that I may have overestimated the gains in muscle mass in someone who's endurance is the most important aspect of her survival. I work out myself and I know there's a strong difference between endurance vs. strength in phisique. Those crazy etheopian marathon runners and tour-de-france cyclists come to mind. In fact, I've come to concede enough to this, together with hints that the armor itself might add strength, that I accept your argument that Sheppard doesn't NEED to have a much more muscle.

Still, I have a personal preference , so I'm in favour. And I could still argue otherwise because a lot is left unclear to how much cybernetics and semi-robotics add. Sir Isaac Newton is not only the deadliest son of a **** in ME2 outer space, he's also the most confusing. I'm beginning to suspect that there's too many variables to make logic and physics work for us in argument.

But its still nice to debate about it and hear other people's reactions. I'm overwhelmed by how many people wouldn't mind more musculature on her. This fan likes at any rate.
 

 

The US army found that the average fighting load for a rifleman in Afghanistan was 63 pounds - that's just his vest and the crap strapped directly to it.  Throw in a small assault pack with extra ammo, water, food, first aid, spare batteries, machinegun ammo and the average hits 95 pounds.  More if you're a machinegunner or carrying an AT weapon.  Serious long-term back injuries and exhaustion are common.  Shep doesn't carry 25% of what a modern infantryman does. 

Plus her armor is made out of old newspapers and doesn't actually stop incoming rounds so it's can't weigh that much

[Halfdan The Menace]

Darkstar87uk wrote...

Fem sheps look like barbie dolls they need to be like this

thats not a woman,thats a tranny!!     

see my previous post on page 2,Wonder Woman is a good example...

Modifié par ModestmeNTaLmogul, 08 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[AntiChri5]

And the pointless insult thrown out at all trans individuals really makes you look good. Seriously, it doesn't make you look like a douche at all, nope not the least.

[HHS_spartan]

I think there is a more muscular fem shep *cough* male shep

[SithLordExarKun]

Femshep looks fine, only weird thing i saw for me were her proportions in the black dress, short torso long arms.

[Aurica]

Maybe its the armour the Shephard is wearing.  For all we know it could function similarly to the power armour mention in the link here.  wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

It might contain its own power unit, hydraulic accentuators or (insert whatever tech jargon you can think of) that enchanced the mobility, stamina and strength of the user.  Or it could even be the cybernetic implants thats within Shepard.

Modifié par Aurica, 08 novembre 2010 - 11:33 .

[Skirlasvoud]

I'm a student of the biomedical sciences, so I've spend an hour doing what I'm good at and I've done some research:


First, I'm going to withdraw from speculating about bioengineering, semi-robotic power suits, cybernetics, or how much Sheppard's gear weighs. We simply don't know enough about how those things work in the ME universe. This is what I've found about ME armour and it doesn't say anything about armor assisted movement or how heavy gear is. With the lack of conclusive evidence to support 22st century combat aid and body support, my personal prefference would be to dismiss these when concidering Femshep's bodytype. As I've said before, I want to make a case for putting realism in the game, and none of these things help, especcially when there's so little evidence to their existence. 


What's left is a discussion how a real-world marine would look like. It's our closest comparison to what we should be looking for. First off, "Femshep look just fine" wouldn't cut it when playing a female soldier. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18849867 shows that an increase in muscle mass is evident. I think that the decrease in body fat would also do much to accentuate that musculature. (Can't find a good picture of a female marine's body for the life of me. )


This here article shows the body compositions of three bodytypes. Marathon (endurance), Triathlon (mixed) and Heptathlon (power). http://openwaterchic...ics-case-study/
Compare this with images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100620082437/masseffect/images/thumb/0/06/Default_Casual_Roughneck.png/441px-Default_Casual_Roughneck.png

We can all immidiatly agree that Femshep does not have a Marathon type body form. Her current in-game form is more a Triathlon body type, while I'm arguing for a Heptathlon body type.
 Even if not, than we can least agree that MaleShep does look like a heptathlon athlete, not a triathlon type, but with no female equivalent in-game. 


Triathlon requires swimming, cycling and sprinting for long distances, which are mostly distance excersises.
Heptathlon requires Javalin throwing, pot shots, hurdles, jumps and running worth one kilometer. Heptathlons require quite a lot of "sprint and power" events.


So the question remaining is: Which of these looks most like a Female Marine's training regime?


This here is an article that shows minimal ftiness requirements of the female US marines.
http://usmilitary.ab...blfitfemale.htm A 2 mile run plus sit ups and pull ups.

And this here is an article that shows US Marine Corps reccommended body development excersises for women
http://www.chicagoma...maleworkout.pdf Lots of crunches and weights to shape fresh female recruits up, together with running excercises.


I would say that their training regime looks most like that of an heptathlon athlete. The short amount of heavy repititions, also seem to favour strength over endurance. They might run longer than a heptathlete, but the required strength excersises match quite closely. As was said before, ducking in and out of cover, is most important for a soldier. I suggest that the "sprint and power" techniques of the heptathlon matches this technique. 

Personally, I think that openwaterchicago.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2008-decathlon_heptathlon.jpg can kick the current femshep's scrawney ass any day of the week and is more closely matched to Maleshep.


I'm open for debate, but I'm quite smug with myself. I nay-sayers would allow me the Hubris: This is a clear and cut case, if ever I saw one. FemShep should have more muscles if one strives for realism.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:42 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Thanks for the research.

I understand that the pictures of the athletes are extremes, though?! I mean, that's what they do: they shape their body for one single purpose. FemShep must be more diverse, especially coming up with plans and tactics and doing research and all that commander stuff. She's not solely a grunt on the field where physical shape is all that matters. Therefore i'd say the pictures mark the end of the curve and femshep should be somewhere in the middle from where she is now to that end. But this would mean only a pretty minor tweak, wouldn't it.



All things considered there are much more important things about her that need fixing like the greasy hair, weird animation, limitations in the face-editor (not generally, but for example there something wrong with the chin. You can only use one mouth-depth position, all others make her look like a duck (in profile angle). Also the forehead-nose part is really difficult to get good-looking in profile). And her arms are strange when she wears the Kasumi-dress. I think the shoulders are too wide.

[TheKillerAngel]

Anyone who is actually in the military right now will tell you that endurance matters more than quick bursts of strength. That doesn't mean having a skinny distance runner physique, but carrying around a 60 lb ruck for many miles on a march takes its toll. It's about balance. If you look at the bodies of Navy SEALS, they are athletic, but aren't usually bodybuilder types. Having too much muscle mass makes it difficult to go long distances.

Example: http://www.udtseal.n...on1992SEALs.jpg

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 08 novembre 2010 - 04:41 .

[Nicodemus]

My neighbour is a Paratrooper and is a Physical Training Instructor for his regiment. His body structure is athletic but not overly muscular. Most soldiers are athletic, not of the body builder popcorn muscles look. There is a reason why you don't have troops that are all bulging muscles it's called flexibility. When you get in close quarter fighting having huge muscles limits your movement, you cannot actually reach/flex in certain ways and is a HUGE disadvantage.



As it is the Femshep model isn't bad, in her Kasumi dress you see that her physical appearance isn't slim but more like a rower, good shoulders, firm legs and a sensible waist. Even her bust size is what I would expect. Likewise the maleshep is also of a sensible look, in too many games the male characters look like they have been growing muscles on thier muscles when in reality that's not the best thing.



As TheKillerAngel said it's more about being fit than about being a hulking bag of muscles, to that end I'd say that the earlier pictures of Jamie Eason and the other light body builder ladies are the upper echelons of what I'd imagine a bulked up Femshep to look like. As it is I prefer my Femshep to be on the level of Demi Moore in GI Jane, buff and physically fit but not bulging with muscles.

[CalJones]

The proportions bother me more than anything - her neck is far too long, her arms too gangly and skinny. Even Jack is better built and she's slender.

[lovgreno]

Sure there are many good reasons for femShep to look like she does and still be strong enough but I think the fact that she would look more badass (and some of us would say more sexy too) is a good enough reason for her to have a big and muscular option. This is a game and thus I think the rule of cool is something you should allow. In my opinion a muscular FemShep is cool enough to be allowed even it may not make total sense.

[Warikz]

She could use more definition in her arms for sure, her arms are so scrawny. As for the rest of it, I dunno. when you put her in the tight fitting casual clothes you can see there is a lot of muscular development in her back and thighs (which are different from the basic female Human model used), both of which you could say are indicative of her profession. Her shoulders seem powerful and we never see her abdomen so there is no way to tell how that looks whilst the photos clearly show the athletes abdomen. Femshep overall looks pretty similar in stature to the athlete the OP posted i'd say. She is definitely thicker set than average. My complaint is the arms really, bulk up the upper arms in particular.

One thing I wholly disagree with is that Femshep is somehow indicative of how video games portray women. I'd say Femshep is probably the only strong female character in video games right now who doesn't have quote a sexy body unquote. Her looks are alright, not fantastic, but Bioware has focused more on the personality rather than making her some big breasted, cleavage showing bimbo.

Also to bear in mind, you don't have to be ridiculously muscled to be a soldier. The current Miss England is a soldier, and she isn't ridiculously muscled:

http://i.dailymail.c...906_468x636.jpg

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/11/08/article-1225912-071E90AF000005DC-955_233x448.jpg

...and yes, she has served on the front lines in Iraq.

Modifié par Warikz, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:36 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Fshep is fine as is I wouldn't change her otherwise they may not stop like Tomb Raider.

[Skirlasvoud]

Looks like Bioware might already be considering upgrading their female character models.
I'm not meaning to turn this thread away from Mass Effect, but here's a low-quality clip of Lady Hawke from Bioware's Dragon Age 2 Trailer:

.

I do think that this female fighter already has a bit more muscle on her. 1:02 has some biceps I can believe in when a girl starts swinging around a greatsword. (Or taking on a Krogan in Melee for that matter.) Difference is quite subtle and not too pronounced either.

Too low quality to tell, little skin shown I might be dabbling in wishfull thinking while things aren't final, but I aplaud this artistic course if this is a direction Bioware decides to stay on in Mass Effect 3.

Lady Hawke's Body for ME3!

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 18 novembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[MadCat221]

I envision Jillian Michaels-level muscle for FemShep would be a good balance.

Modifié par MadCat221, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:50 .

[Doveberry]

I would love to see a more muscled FemShep. It's one of those things that have bothered me from ME1.

[Vena_86]

Fem Shepard has a very natural and balanced body structure in both games. There is nothing wrong with it. Changing it in any way will destroy the perfect balance.

Modifié par Vena_86, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:31 .