804 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is the most likable and real-seeming character in the game.

In your opinion but that's hardly a fact.

Quoted for truth. In YOUR opinion errant.

[metalcraze33]

actually alistair was one of my favorite characters until I played a male cousland who did whatever it took and he whined about everything I did.I never romanced him with a character who couldn't rule with him.
my female mage was into Zev cause he seemed dangerous and exciting and my female elf was like humans eww no way. btw snoopy mabari most awesome dog EVER!

Modifié par metalcraze33, 07 novembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[nos_astra]

metalcraze33 wrote...
actually alistair was one of my favorite characters until I played a male cousland who did whatever it took and he whined about everything I did.

So do the other companions if you do something they don't agree with. What's wrong with that?

I like most of the characters even more if they openly disagree, well except Morrigan who will disapprove of everything that is not a demonstration of strength in her eyes, even if such an action weakens our position.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

 Consider THIS a warning.  If it goes to a Loghain hate thread, I next post the sex scenes...

*Snip*

Egads, ejoslin, that was.........

DO IT, EJOSLIN! Spam those sex scenes! Alistair/Morrigan/ Loghain/Morrigan, toolset generated Ali/Loggy man love,  bring them on! Don't wait for the hate, silnce everyone with the power of unholy pixel sexytime!

[Mondo47]

Have I said today that Alistair is a whining man-child with all the charisma of a damp bathsponge? Oh, wait...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Mondo47 wrote...

Have I said today that Alistair is a whining man-child with all the charisma of a damp bathsponge? Oh, wait...

So long as you post pictures of him having sex with anyone but Oghren, you can say it 1000 times a day!

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...
actually alistair was one of my favorite characters until I played a male cousland who did whatever it took and he whined about everything I did.

So do the other companions if you do something they don't agree with. What's wrong with that?

I like most of the characters even more if they openly disagree, well except Morrigan who will disapprove of everything that is not a demonstration of strength in her eyes, even if such an action weakens our position.

I think the difference between Alistair complaining and other people complaining is that Alistair is supposed to be in charge. Morrigan, Wynne, Sten, ect. cannot take control of the party even if Sten attempts to at one point. The toolset shows that while in the game you die automatically if you lose, there was supposed to be an option to lose and live but no one would follow him. While you could say that if Alistair decided once you massacred the Dalish that you were a bloodthirsty psycho and he should be in charge that no one would listen to him, he was the one who ceded leadership in the first place. Had he taken charge from the onset then the other party members could hardly declare that they liked the other guy better and put you in charge.

I understand why Alistair did it given the fact that, because of game mechanics, he was taking Ostagar far worse than you can take, well, anything and feel that an unhardened Alistair probably isn't the best leader to begin with and game mechanics mandate that you be in charge. Just the same, if Morrigan doesn't like what you're doing then there's not much she can do besides leave or complain. If Alistair doesn't like what you're doing, it was only possible because he put you in charge. He says he can't lead and wants you to do it and then he acts the part of the backseat driver. He clearly does have an idea of how he would lead if he were in charge but he gave that up.

I'm not saying he should mindlessly agree with everything you do (especially when you're off being evil) but I can see why it would annoy people that he puts you in charge and procedes to criticize everything you do differently than he would have.

[metalcraze33]

see exactly why the heck won't you take charge if you don't like how I am doing things?

It's not like my character knows how to lead a group. He does the best he can. plus while alistair criticized he doesn't really suggest anything very helpful. after all he suggests we kill conner and then yells at me about it?

[Giggles_Manically]

When on my evil mage Everd PT, I:

Murder knifed almost everyone.

Despoiled the Ashes

Killed the Elves

Kept the Anvil

Used the blood ritual in the alienage.

Also I stole from everyone and was a bastard.



However since I always said nice things to him, and gave him only plot gifts I ended up with around 60-70 approval by the landsmeet.



It was funny that Alistair yelled at him some times, but because Everd said nice things to him Alistair still liked him. Even though he had the blood of a lot of innocent people on his hands.



Still tried to leave when I spared Loghain though.



I do find it sad that Alistair puts you in charge then yells at you when you dont do what he thinks is right. Then when you try to say "well try to lead then" which leads to "ME LEAD NOONONONONON!"

[ejoslin]

Alistair and Connor really does show Alistair at his worst, as far as leading goes. I go back to my first playthrough where my city elf was madly in love with Alistair. OMG. I did kill Connor. Blood magic was out. Everyone was telling me there was really no time to go to the mage tower. Even Connor was saying he had no clue when the bad lady would return. Alistair, though obviously not happy, does seem to think it's the good idea.



When got back to camp, I honestly was expecting a bit of sympathy because that whole scene was rough. Instead, I got the whole, "You KILLED Connor! How could you kill a little boy?" Bleh, it was bad. Since I was nice, I didn't lose much approval, but it hit hard.

[Zjarcal]

Mondo47 wrote...

Have I said today that Alistair is a whining man-child with all the charisma of a damp bathsponge? Oh, wait...

Yay Mondo!

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

When got back to camp, I honestly was expecting a bit of sympathy because that whole scene was rough. Instead, I got the whole, "You KILLED Connor! How could you kill a little boy?" Bleh, it was bad. Since I was nice, I didn't lose much approval, but it hit hard.

The voice acting in that scene is amazing IMO.  You probably have to like Alistair to feel it, but "you killed Connor" is one of the most chilling lines I've heard in a game.

[/scarred fangirl ]

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

When got back to camp, I honestly was expecting a bit of sympathy because that whole scene was rough. Instead, I got the whole, "You KILLED Connor! How could you kill a little boy?" Bleh, it was bad. Since I was nice, I didn't lose much approval, but it hit hard.

The voice acting in that scene is amazing IMO.  You probably have to like Alistair to feel it, but "you killed Connor" is one of the most chilling lines I've heard in a game.

[/scarred fangirl ]

It really did bring into focus, for me, that there was no "good" way to play the game, really.  I did do the mage tower in one subsequent playthrough, but even though it's the happy-joy solution, it doesn't seem to me to be worth the risk.  The village had already lost so much, and only one HNF could justify putting one noble child above so many other people.

[Zjarcal]

@Addai:

Yeah... you really have to be a hardcore fangirl (or fanboy!) to feel that.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 novembre 2010 - 07:36 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Alistair is surprisingly tolerant of alot of things done as a Warden, given his history as a templar. His approval loss for blood magic related situations is pretty minor compared to others. The thing people seem to mistake, especially if they are used to playing in a D&D alignment system, is that they assume knight/templar automatically= Lawful Good/Paladin, and thus, expect such stereotypes when interacting with Alistair. But Alistair is anything but Lawful Good. Wynne fits the paladin/LG mold far more. Alistair is more in the realm of NG, even bording on CG, when thinking in alignment scales. But like everything compared with D&D/DA crossover scenarios, the comparisons are limited in scope, as the alignment free DA universe is far to complex and ambiguous for such things.



Thus, Alistair's behavior seems at odds with expectations for the character when people try to percieve characters in terms of good/evil. It is possible to maintain a reasonable level of approval with Alistair while playing a complete evil bastard. I personally believe, the reason for this, is Alistair, though his time with the Wardens before they were killed at Ostagar, coupled with his less than enthusiastic opinion of the Chantry in general, makes him a little more receptive to morally questionable, or even downright.twistedm, things, in the name of the Blight. he does tell you in Ostagar, that Duncan said the Wardens do extreme things, anything it takes to win. Alistair might not like it, but he will give his opinion and continue to follow you.



Alistair not wanting to lead an take charge is actually a good thing in his favor. better him to admit he's useless in charge, and let someone more competant, even if of junior rank, make the descisions than be like his idiot brother and take charge even though he would make a clueless and disasterous leader. But just because he follows your lead, doesn't mean he's going to agree with your descisions, and will let you know his opinion on the matter. But in the end, he follows you and trusts your decisions, even the nasty ones, are going to help defeat the Blight, and he knows he does not have the capacity to take on your role, as he would more than likely make things worse.

[metalcraze33]

.Alistair doesn't get the big picture.
Like when Alistair says we must bring loghain to justice. I was like really? so we just forget about the archdemon then?
He let's his personal feelings rule him which as we see with Loghain is disastrous in war.
and like he thinks being a Warden is all about being noble I was like hey I committed fratricide you know?Only stopping the blight matters not honor. so start be realistic and get your head out of whatever storybook dreams you are stuck in you jackwagon.

Modifié par metalcraze33, 07 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Sarah1281]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

When got back to camp, I honestly was expecting a bit of sympathy because that whole scene was rough. Instead, I got the whole, "You KILLED Connor! How could you kill a little boy?" Bleh, it was bad. Since I was nice, I didn't lose much approval, but it hit hard.

The voice acting in that scene is amazing IMO.  You probably have to like Alistair to feel it, but "you killed Connor" is one of the most chilling lines I've heard in a game.

[/scarred fangirl ]

It really did bring into focus, for me, that there was no "good" way to play the game, really.  I did do the mage tower in one subsequent playthrough, but even though it's the happy-joy solution, it doesn't seem to me to be worth the risk.  The village had already lost so much, and only one HNF could justify putting one noble child above so many other people.

Yeah, my DN went to the Circle because she was just so utterly shocked to find a noble family that actually gave a damn about each other and she wanted to give them a happy ending although she realized it probably wasn't going to happen so she left everyone but Wynne and Alistair back at the castle with the instructions to do the blood magic ritual if Connor started acting up or, if they noticed too late, to simply kill him. Fortunately, it didn't come to that. They should have made it a sloth demon or something inside of him.

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...
They should have made it a sloth demon or something inside of him.

OMG, this would've actually made that scenario make complete sense.

[EccentricSage]

TJPags wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is the most likable and real-seeming character in the game.

Umm, no.
IMO, he is one dimensional, and hardly likeable.  I'd rate Morrigan as the most real seeming character in the game.

I have to disagree with him being one dimensional.  Alistair does have some complex psychological reasons for being the blundering fool that he can so often be.  It makes sense that, having been an orphan rumored to be a bastard of a noble, he was an unloved outcast his whole childhood.  Someone who was never good enough and just a burden.  Even though he seems to place Eamon on a pedistal, fact remains that Alistair lived in a freekn' barn, if I'm remembering corectly... he didn't even get to live in the castle.  It's like he was always tolerated and told he was welcome there, but was never really welcome there and felt it.  But it was all he knew.  Eamon's tolerance and support via basic survival requirements were all Alistair had that he could look up to Eamon for.  But that was all Alistair knew.

Then he gets sent off to the Chantry at a young age because marrying Isold was more important to Alistair's father figure than his own welfare was.  He says he was rebelious and isn't that religious, but you can see in various dialogues how much his time in the chantry colored his way of thinking.  A good example would be that discussion Zevran has with him about religion, or the way Alistair's first reaction to Morrigan is 'OMG!  APOSTATE!  DON'T TRUST IT, IT'S EVIL!'  and then, even after she helps you, if you bring up the subject when you get back to Dunkan, does Alistair say she helped?  No, he says there are apostates in the forest, and says it as though it's a horrible thing.  This is one of the things that makes me want to slap him around, but considering his upbringing and training, I kind of understand how hard wired he is to react that way.

I think something that is easy for us to forget is that Alistair has only been a Grey Warden for about one year.  It was long enough to become deeply atached to Dunkan, who rescued him from becoming a Templar, which he had no choice in, and who treeted him with respect and saw potential in him others did not.  That had to have been very powerful for him.  I completely understand why he takes Dunkan's death so hard.  But it's also understandable that a year in Grey Warden training isn't going to erase a lifetime of never being held or loved, and it won't erase half his youth or more being indoctrinated by the Chantry.

Despite the influence of the Chantry, he will treat most mages erespectfully and has no problem being a close friend or romancing your warden if she's a mage.  The landsmeet is a mess that IMO shows how unprepared Alistair is.  He's only just starting to get to know himself, and during a blight no less.  Now he ether needs to become King and try to follow in the footsteps of a father he never knew, or face the Arch demon knowing that ether one of you has to die, or he has to do a questionable ritual with someone he beleaves is a maleficar.  He's really not in a very happy place.

I think he's foolish and week, but he's a kind person at heart, with naive good intentions that are simply not backed up by much confidence.  David Gaider said that Xander from Buffy the Vampire Slayer was an influence on his writing of Alistair.  Well, I can say in Mr. Gaider's and Alistaires favor that I hate Xander far more than Alistair, and I at least find Alistair's issues more beleavable and understandable, and his sense of humor more amusing, and generally find him more usefull than Xander was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  (Anya deserved better than him!)

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

When got back to camp, I honestly was expecting a bit of sympathy because that whole scene was rough. Instead, I got the whole, "You KILLED Connor! How could you kill a little boy?" Bleh, it was bad. Since I was nice, I didn't lose much approval, but it hit hard.

The voice acting in that scene is amazing IMO.  You probably have to like Alistair to feel it, but "you killed Connor" is one of the most chilling lines I've heard in a game.

[/scarred fangirl ]

I'm not an Alifan, but I agree completely.  In a way it was refreshing to see him show a little backbone, even if completely misdirected.  He's the ex Templar who said we might have to kill Connor, after all.  But I do love how that conversation back at camp stops you from just shruging it off as a boss battle completed and actually does make you think, "Yeah, I just killed a kid, this **** is f***ed up" and really draws one deaper into character.  I apreciate that.  That is some damn good writing, character animation, and voice acting right there.  It really comes together to make a pretty intence experience that should be apreciated no matter how mad the player gets at Alistair for being such a hypocritical, unhelpful douchewaffle during Redcliff.  I mean, I can kind of see why he would be an unhelpful douchewaffle considering how all this is very close to home for him, and he does not even have time to deal with those fealings.  Also, douchewaffle is my new favorite insult.  Expect more douchewaffle all up in these forums.

[EccentricSage]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
They should have made it a sloth demon or something inside of him.

OMG, this would've actually made that scenario make complete sense.

I agree.  I thought the whole Connor waits and nothing goes wrong bit was such a lame game mechanic moment.  I did it with my Dalish because he's still a bit Naive and soft hearted and Alistair is his friend.  And I can tell you, my Dalish may be excillent at killing, but he's no tactitian.

Most of the time, I try not to metagame, so I simply can not leave Redcliff in such a state.  Isold usually gets sacraficed, as she damn well deserves.  But if one does not trust Jowan's good intentions, then it would seem equally insane to let him do a blood ritual.  We kind of get lucky with Jowan not being possessed himself, and not using the ritual to gain power and escape instead of helping.  Pretty much the only sure thing is killing Connor, from a tactical perspective. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

metalcraze33 wrote...

.Alistair doesn't get the big picture.
Like when Alistair says we must bring loghain to justice. I was like really? so we just forget about the archdemon then?
He let's his personal feelings rule him which as we see with Loghain is disastrous in war.
and like he thinks being a Warden is all about being noble I was like hey I committed fratricide you know?Only stopping the blight matters not honor. so start be realistic and get your head out of whatever storybook dreams you are stuck in you jackwagon.

But that is Alistair. He is not realistic, he is very idealisitic, and rules almost entirely by his heart rather than his head. He was never presented any other way, you can pretty much tell that from the beginning. He doesn't understand or see the big picture, it would make no sense if he did, given his upbringing, which would not have encouraged or developed the emotional maturity that is needed for leadership or crisis management. Or even dealing with "the real world".

That said, these flaws and weaknesses of Alistair's endear him to me, because these are flaws and weaknesses highly apparant, but understandable when looking at the broader scope of the character in general. I play different types of characters, and some agree with his perspectives on things, as well as his rage in the Landsmeet, some don't.

But after playing through different games with different styles, origins, and ethics, and seeing Alistair from both love/hate extremes, he remains my absolute favorite character. But that's just me.

[EccentricSage]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Alistair is surprisingly tolerant of alot of things done as a Warden, given his history as a templar. His approval loss for blood magic related situations is pretty minor compared to others. The thing people seem to mistake, especially if they are used to playing in a D&D alignment system, is that they assume knight/templar automatically= Lawful Good/Paladin, and thus, expect such stereotypes when interacting with Alistair. But Alistair is anything but Lawful Good. Wynne fits the paladin/LG mold far more. Alistair is more in the realm of NG, even bording on CG, when thinking in alignment scales. But like everything compared with D&D/DA crossover scenarios, the comparisons are limited in scope, as the alignment free DA universe is far to complex and ambiguous for such things.

Thus, Alistair's behavior seems at odds with expectations for the character when people try to percieve characters in terms of good/evil. It is possible to maintain a reasonable level of approval with Alistair while playing a complete evil bastard. I personally believe, the reason for this, is Alistair, though his time with the Wardens before they were killed at Ostagar, coupled with his less than enthusiastic opinion of the Chantry in general, makes him a little more receptive to morally questionable, or even downright.twistedm, things, in the name of the Blight. he does tell you in Ostagar, that Duncan said the Wardens do extreme things, anything it takes to win. Alistair might not like it, but he will give his opinion and continue to follow you.

Alistair not wanting to lead an take charge is actually a good thing in his favor. better him to admit he's useless in charge, and let someone more competant, even if of junior rank, make the descisions than be like his idiot brother and take charge even though he would make a clueless and disasterous leader. But just because he follows your lead, doesn't mean he's going to agree with your descisions, and will let you know his opinion on the matter. But in the end, he follows you and trusts your decisions, even the nasty ones, are going to help defeat the Blight, and he knows he does not have the capacity to take on your role, as he would more than likely make things worse.

I think it also has to do with him being a bit self centered.  He's more bothered by things that hit close to home than things that are equally bad but have little to do with him.  This is part of why I have more respect for Zevran than Al.  Zev's supposed to be this bad assassin guy, and at first, Al himself lets him know that.  Yet who is it that makes grand speeches apealing to both your logic and compassion whenever you agree to kill a large group of people, like the Dalish tribe, or the mages?  Zevran.  He feels like it's not his place to judge, because of his own background, so you can keep the dissaproval down as long as you're reasonable with him, but he makes his opinion very clear, and he always rationalizes his stance rather than personalizing it, and I find that very respectable.  If I could put Zevran on the throne, I probably would.  LOL

[metalcraze33]

woot I would go for king zevran
btw I melt everytime zevran pleads for the dalish I can't understand why people think he's heartless.
I have to kill them before I get Zev or I feel bad.

Modifié par metalcraze33, 07 novembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EccentricSage wrote...
I think it also has to do with him being a bit self centered.  He's more bothered by things that hit close to home than things that are equally bad but have little to do with him.  This is part of why I have more respect for Zevran than Al.  Zev's supposed to be this bad assassin guy, and at first, Al himself lets him know that.  Yet who is it that makes grand speeches apealing to both your logic and compassion whenever you agree to kill a large group of people, like the Dalish tribe, or the mages?  Zevran.  He feels like it's not his place to judge, because of his own background, so you can keep the dissaproval down as long as you're reasonable with him, but he makes his opinion very clear, and he always rationalizes his stance rather than personalizing it, and I find that very respectable.  If I could put Zevran on the throne, I probably would.  LOL

That's not really self centered though. That's human nature. people fight and feel most passionately about those things that hit closest to home. Zevran is no different. Despite his upbringing in a ****house, he's still an elf, and thus, situations involving the elves, whether city or Dalish, will invoke far more emotion and  desperate pleas than otherwise. In other situations, he isn't that involved or passionate, and sometimes, favors a more ruthless approach.

People defend mosr fiercely those things that are closest and most personal to them. Eamon's family is the only family he has ever known, even if the situation he was in was far from stable and secure. And Duncan was the first person in Alistair's life who Alistair felt was like family, and loved him. They are what he feels most passionately about, and thus, will evoke the most extreme reaction from him. But all the characters are like that, in that they feel more strongly about things that are close and personal to them than things far more distant.

In that respect, all of the characters are self-centered.