804 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...
I think it also has to do with him being a bit self centered.  He's more bothered by things that hit close to home than things that are equally bad but have little to do with him.  This is part of why I have more respect for Zevran than Al.  Zev's supposed to be this bad assassin guy, and at first, Al himself lets him know that.  Yet who is it that makes grand speeches apealing to both your logic and compassion whenever you agree to kill a large group of people, like the Dalish tribe, or the mages?  Zevran.  He feels like it's not his place to judge, because of his own background, so you can keep the dissaproval down as long as you're reasonable with him, but he makes his opinion very clear, and he always rationalizes his stance rather than personalizing it, and I find that very respectable.  If I could put Zevran on the throne, I probably would.  LOL

That's not really self centered though. That's human nature. people fight and feel most passionately about those things that hit closest to home. Zevran is no different. Despite his upbringing in a ****house, he's still an elf, and thus, situations involving the elves, whether city or Dalish, will invoke far more emotion and  desperate pleas than otherwise. In other situations, he isn't that involved or passionate, and sometimes, favors a more ruthless approach.

People defend mosr fiercely those things that are closest and most personal to them. Eamon's family is the only family he has ever known, even if the situation he was in was far from stable and secure. And Duncan was the first person in Alistair's life who Alistair felt was like family, and loved him. They are what he feels most passionately about, and thus, will evoke the most extreme reaction from him. But all the characters are like that, in that they feel more strongly about things that are close and personal to them than things far more distant.

In that respect, all of the characters are self-centered.

The mages too, don't forget them!

Edit: The main problem with Zevran and the mages is in the vanilla game you have to kill Wynne to hear his plea.

I mean, that's not necessarily a downside, mind you...

Zevran is an odd mix of practical and compassionate.  He is against senseless killing of innocents, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter who the target it.  However, if there's a sense to it (the anvil, Redcliff), yeh, he will speak his opinion and doesn't hold life THAT sacred.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[nos_astra]

metalcraze33 wrote...
see exactly why the heck won't you take charge if you don't like how I am doing things?

Because the story can't be written that way. He can't take charge, he's not the player character. So what should the writers do? Should he approve of everything you do? He will criticize you, just like people who are not leading do in the real world, too.

To be in charge means to deal with criticism, throwing a fit and screaming 'do the job yourself if you think you can do better' is not a good way to do it.

metalcraze33 wrote...
It's not like my character knows how to lead a group. He does the best he can. plus while alistair criticized he doesn't really suggest anything very helpful. after all he suggests we kill conner and then yells at me about it?

Two things are a given in Dragon Age: No matter what origin, your character is a natural leader and eventually willing to do it. They might be a bit reluctant at first but that's all. Origins can't work any other way.

Alistair suggests killing Connor because that's what being a templar is about. Mages are dangerous, mages can beccome abominations that have to be killed. That's what he knows to be the 'right' way and it's the first thing that comes to his mind. If you keep talking and asking, he will also suggest going to the tower.

I wish there were actual consequences for your actions, to show you your companions might have a point. I wish being rude to people or slitting throats would earn you a reputation and convince people that you must indeed be brought to justice. I wish Arl Eamon would react less indifferent to the news that his wife or son died at your hands.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 novembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[metalcraze33]

That is not true Alistair suggested killing the mages in the tower may be wrong so it's not because of his training

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...
see exactly why the heck won't you take charge if you don't like how I am doing things?

Because the story can't be written that way. He can't take charge, he's not the player character. So what should the writers do? Should he approve of everything you do? He will criticize you, just like people who are not leading do in the real world, too.

To be in charge means to deal with criticism, throwing a fit and screaming 'do the job yourself if you think you can do better' is not a good way to do it.

metalcraze33 wrote...
It's not like my character knows how to lead a group. He does the best he can. plus while alistair criticized he doesn't really suggest anything very helpful. after all he suggests we kill conner and then yells at me about it?

Two things are a given in Dragon Age: No matter what origin, your character is a natural leader and eventually willing to do it. They might be a bit reluctant at first but that's all. Origins can't work any other way.

Alistair suggests killing Connor because that's what being a templar is about. Mages are dangerous, mages can beccome abominations that have to be killed. That's what he knows to be the 'right' way and it's the first thing that comes to his mind. If you keep talking and asking, he will also suggest going to the tower.

I wish there were consequences for the things you do. I wish being rude to people or slitting throats would earn you a reputation and convince people that you must indeed be brought to justice. I wish Arl Eamon would react less indifferent to the news that his wife or son died at your hands.

I kinda wish there was a chance of more people being killed by going to the circle tower, depending on how long you're gone.  Maybe only a few extra are killed and you're able to stop most of the new destruction had you already gone to the circle tower, but more if you have to fight through it.

I'm trying to think how many real opportunities you get to murder knife someone people care about.  There's the wounded soldier, but you may argue it's a bit of a mercy killing him at that point.  The prisoner for sure turns out to be a mercy.  Hmmm, Genitivi, but who is going to know?  No one likes Lloyd or cares that he is killed.

[metalcraze33]

I may be a bit cold blooded but sticking a dagger in , Genitivi's head was hilarious

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...


The mages too, don't forget them!

I haven't.  But the mage situation is one he can relate to, having been bought and imprisoned within the Crows, with no conceivable way out except death. It comes down to a personal sympathy for a situation that is close to his heart. Plus, there are alot of elven mages imprisoned in there and doubly stigmatized.

Edit: The main problem with Zevran and the mages is in the vanilla game you have to kill Wynne to hear his plea.

I mean, that's not necessarily a downside, mind you...

I know. if it wasn't for Anerin's amulet and the chance to harrass Wynne with griffons, I'd probably take the option more frequently.

Zevran is an odd mix of practical and compassionate.  He is against senseless killing of innocents, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter who the target it.  However, if there's a sense to it (the anvil, Redcliff), yeh, he will speak his opinion.

he didn't object to slaughtering the werewolves, even though it was clear they were the innocent victims of vengance upon their ancestors. He objected strongly when one of my characters allowed Caladrius to keep his elven slaves in exhcnage for the documents from Loghain, even though that was the most practical and best course of action for her.

Again, it comes down to those things closest in value and similarity to one's own self, that will invoke the most empassioned appeals and aggressive defense of that.

But in general, yes, he does show compassion in some issues when you initially do not expect him to, and cold pragmatism in other situations. Given his own history, it is easy to see why he is generally pretty apathetic in most moral dilemas, having learned that one does what one must to survive and prosper, and thus, in terms of disagreements with your leadership, he is the most accomidating in general.

By conrtrast, Wynne is the most rigid, and playing anything but a paladin generally will ****** her off. With Wynne, though the Circle is closest to her heart, she isn't very comprimising in things that have little or nothing to do with her.

[nos_astra]

metalcraze33 wrote...
That is not true Alistair suggested killing the mages in the tower may be wrong so it's not because of his training

Of course it is. Connor is an abomination and it's painfully obvious that a demon is controlling him. The mages at the Tower are suspected to be blood mages.

[metalcraze33]

Yes and templar training says kill blood mages

[nos_astra]

metalcraze33 wrote...
Yes and templar training says kill blood mages

But it doesn't say kill potential blood mages.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

metalcraze33 wrote...

That is not true Alistair suggested killing the mages in the tower may be wrong so it's not because of his training

Uh, yeah, it is because of his training. That's one of the many duties of a templar: to kill mages that become dangerous, and abominations. And in the beginning, the only information you get about the situation in the tower is from Gregoire, who has basically said that he is going to annull the tower, and wipe out the mages, because he sees no other alternative. As far as he knows, everyone inside is dead, wishes they were dead, is an abomination, or is part of the cabal of blood mages that started this whole thing.

With only that information, it is easy to see why Alistair, who was trained as a templar, would initially agree with Gregoire's assement that the mages need to be exterminated. gregoire is, after all, the Knight Commander, the head of all the templars in the tower, the most senior of them. Thus, as an almost templar, Alistair would trust and agree the Knight Commander.

However, if you decide to side with Cullen and go kill the mages, Alistair objects, because you have just been through the tower, and have more information than gregoire did, and thus, a better idea of the situation.

[metalcraze33]

So it makes sense because of this templar training he suggested killing the boy but what excuses him going ape**** on you in the camp when he suggested it?

Modifié par metalcraze33, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:27 .

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...
I think it also has to do with him being a bit self centered.  He's more bothered by things that hit close to home than things that are equally bad but have little to do with him.  This is part of why I have more respect for Zevran than Al.  Zev's supposed to be this bad assassin guy, and at first, Al himself lets him know that.  Yet who is it that makes grand speeches apealing to both your logic and compassion whenever you agree to kill a large group of people, like the Dalish tribe, or the mages?  Zevran.  He feels like it's not his place to judge, because of his own background, so you can keep the dissaproval down as long as you're reasonable with him, but he makes his opinion very clear, and he always rationalizes his stance rather than personalizing it, and I find that very respectable.  If I could put Zevran on the throne, I probably would.  LOL

That's not really self centered though. That's human nature. people fight and feel most passionately about those things that hit closest to home. Zevran is no different. Despite his upbringing in a ****house, he's still an elf, and thus, situations involving the elves, whether city or Dalish, will invoke far more emotion and  desperate pleas than otherwise. In other situations, he isn't that involved or passionate, and sometimes, favors a more ruthless approach.

People defend mosr fiercely those things that are closest and most personal to them. Eamon's family is the only family he has ever known, even if the situation he was in was far from stable and secure. And Duncan was the first person in Alistair's life who Alistair felt was like family, and loved him. They are what he feels most passionately about, and thus, will evoke the most extreme reaction from him. But all the characters are like that, in that they feel more strongly about things that are close and personal to them than things far more distant.

In that respect, all of the characters are self-centered.

Exactly what she said.  Zevran appeals for the Dalish because of his mother- he even mentions her there- and the elves in the slaver HQ because, well, they're elves and being sold as slaves.  The mages, he says it's not sportsmanlike.  Like shooting fish in a barrel.  That's his assassin's sense of honor talking.  All the characters have their personal perspectives on things.  Alistair will intercede for mages at other points, like Jowan, and naturally he's upset about Eamon's family.  Eamon was a father figure to him.

[Merilsell]

metalcraze33 wrote...

So it makes sense because of this templar training he suggested killing the boy but what excuses him going ape**** on you in the camp when he suggested it?

*sigh* We are walking in circles here, it seems. The answer to that has been perfectly covered by Addai yesterday:

*c+p*

Addai67 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Can you really blame him for not being happy about it?

I don't blame him for yelling if you kill Isolde since he's clearly against the blood ritual. I do blame him for yelling if you kill Connor since he himself suggested it.

I understand him being upset and not happy about it, but he should've remembered that he was in favor of killing Connor before yelling at the PC. I don't know if I should blame this on poor writing to be honest.

No, I think the Cunning dialogue after this reveals what's really going on. It's an emotional freak-out over Eamon. In other threads I've compared it to Jon Snow in Song of Ice and Fire, another bastard who's ill treated for that fact but who is more protective of his "trueborn" brothers and sisters than they are of each other. Alistair is protective of Eamon's family and dreads Eamon waking up to find that he- Alistair- killed his son or his wife. So when he says "I wouldn't normally suggest slaying a child," he's thinking like a reasoning Warden and templar. When he freaks out afterward, he's thinking like an orphan boy who revered Eamon and got treated like a piece of dirt on the bottom of his shoe.

Couldn't have said it better...hence the quoting.

[Addai]

metalcraze33 wrote...

So it makes sense because of this templar training he suggested killing the boy but what excuses him going ape**** on you in the camp when he suggested it?

I explained my take on it up above.  Eamon was a father figure to him and he's protective of his family.  He freaks out when he realizes that Eamon is going to wake up and realize that he was involved in killing his wife or son.

[metalcraze33]

and how the heck does he see a guy who made him sleep in the stables as a father figure?

[Addai]

He explains it. Did you listen to his dialogue? He says Eamon was good to him and didn't have to be, that he gave him a golem doll, took him with him when he traveled, etc. He had no one else. Eamon was sometimes kind to him, his own father had abandoned him, his mother was dead, his sibling could care less...

Sheesh, I mean, use a little human feeling to understand where the guy is coming from.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:38 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

His freak out in camp is a totally different issue unrelated to being a templar. His flip out has more to do with being party to, as well as being witness to, something that is quite horrific and unsettling, even more so because he personally knew the parties involved.



In otherwords, Alistair, who has surrounded himself in a coccon of fantasy and self delusion about how the world should be, and when faced with that heavy slap of less than ideal reality, he freaks out, because he is not emotionally mature enough and seasoned enough to deal with such a crisis.



it is one thing to suggest and consider an option. it's another to come face to face with the reality and consequences of your descision. Adding to that that Alistair craved Eamon's love and approval for most of his life, and you just killed part of his family, however necessary it was, is an even greater blow to Alistair, who while had a sad and rather miserable childhood, has never experienced a major crisis like this.



It is not rational, but given the character in question, it makes perfect sense for him. And, if you handle him in that conversation firmly, but diplomatically and calmly, he gets talked down, apologizes for flipping out, admits it was a stupid thing to do, and admits he's just tired, frustrated, and looking to take it out on someone. The approval loss is small.



the fact that Alistair is capable of seeing his own irrational and silly behavior in that situation, and admit he is wrong, shows that he isn't incapable of seeing his mistakes, or realizing when he is wrong.

[metalcraze33]

Um eamon made him sleep in the stable when he had a whole castle I am sure there was a private out of the way room somewhere he abandoned him to the chantry because his wife didn't like him. how does a doll make up for any of that? and I am usimg human feeling if he loved the boy he would have treated him better

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
In that respect, all of the characters are self-centered.

Everyone is self-centered in one way or the other. However, with Alistair it's much more apparent than with others. It makes him unable to see the bigger picture.

His objection to the Isolde / Connor is solely based on what Eamon would think of him, as if that's the most important thing at stake at the moment.
His objection about Loghain, driving him to claim a throne he doesn't want and eventually abandon the fight against the Blight, is also a very apparent self-centered concern with an indifference to the larger things at stake (the kingdom and the blight).  

He is not the only one, but it's more apparent with him. The others might complain about some choices due to personal biases and preconceptions, but they never complained about two choices presented for one situation, like Alistair did (and with quite a lot of anger). And they, more often then not, can be persuaded to approve or lose a few approval points, whereas Alistair has to lose a lot approval points for the Redcliffe issue (that can be minimized but it's still a loss) and can be very hard to convince on the Landsmeet issue (and he would hate you).

Zevran can be persuaded to slaughter the Dalish, he isn't very adamant about it. He gets insulted if you ask him about the Dalish after killing them and that's a natural reaction. But it isn't as strong as Alistair's reaction.

At the end of the day, as strange as it may sound, Morrigan turns out to be the least self-centered and is capable of setting aside her feelings to do what must be done.
Morrigan: "What I want...is not important now" in WH.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:48 .

[Addai]

Function of being an idealistic character versus a pragmatic one. Of course they are going to be harder to persuade. Someone who has strong identification with their personal values is not going to waver on those, and is going to be massively upset when they're violated. I know because I have this personality tendency. Generally I'm pretty phlegmatic, but on certain values issues, the nails come out, and people have said they're shocked because it seems like a completely out of the blue freak-out. So I totally get where Alistair is coming from.



It's NOT self-centeredness. At the Landsmeet, Alistair sees a value being violated- justice against Loghain. Naturally there is personal feeling involved, too, but his inflexibility is principles-based.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

metalcraze33 wrote...

Um eamon made him sleep in the stable when he had a whole castle I am sure there was a private out of the way room somewhere he abandoned him to the chantry because his wife didn't like him. how does a doll make up for any of that? and I am usimg human feeling if he loved the boy he would have treated him better

Did I say Eamon was a great guy? No. In fact, I think Eamon is a conservative, tradition obsessed ass.

But what you or I think of Eamon means nothing. It is how Alistair views him is the issue.

And Alistair would not be the first person in history to be raised or abandoned by abusive or neglectful parents/Foster parents who, inspite of it all, still loved their parent/foster parent and craved approval from them, despite being treated poorly. In fact, many people in the real world, who are either victims of abuse, or had absentee parents, still love their parents and crave love/approval in return, despite the fact that it is unlikely to ever be obtainable. In that, you delve into the realm psychology, a completely different topic alltogether.

But Alistair's continued love for Eamon as the first father figure he ever knew, despite Eamon's cold and inconsiderate treatment of Alistair, is not strange or out of the ordinary, or something that makes no sense. On the contrary, if you have ever known a person who still clung to an abusive relative even as the abuse continued, makes a very sad sort of sense.

Like I said, i think Eamon is a toad, and I hate his **** of a wife with her irritating nails on chalkboard voice and her hypocrisy and arrogance. But that does not mean that I do not understand Alistair's POV on the situation, nor do I hold it against him, even if I disagree with his sentiments and would like to see him tell Eamon to take his sad town and castle and stuff em where the sun don't shine.

[Zjarcal]

Merilsell wrote...

*snipped Addai's quote about Alistair's rant*

Couldn't have said it better...hence the quoting.

While Addai's explanation is great and does indeed explain the "why" of his rant (when killing Connor), it doesn't make his rant any less annoying for some (myself included).

[metalcraze33]

Which proves my point that Alistair is a whack job with daddy issues

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Function of being an idealistic character versus a pragmatic one. Of course they are going to be harder to persuade. Someone who has strong identification with their personal values is not going to waver on those, and is going to be massively upset when they're violated.

His real concern about the Redcliffe issue is not about principles. It's solely or primarily about what Eamon would think of him.

Addai67 wrote...
At the Landsmeet, Alistair sees a value being violated- justice against Loghain. Naturally there is personal feeling involved, too, but his inflexibility is principles-based.

I strongly disagree. I don't see how anyone can claim to be just and at the same time declare an entire nation not worth defending because of one man being spared. It's hypocritical and incoherent, which for me shows that it's an emotional reaction and not a principled thought out one. 

At its core, I don't see it being a question of principles really. The Warden can do things as "wrong" as Loghain. Duncan himself could very much do this and Alistair is NOT unaware of this, he tells us this himself.

Even if he had a principled objection to Loghain, the fact that he leaves and regrets it afterwards, shows that emotion got the best of him and whatever principles he might have had.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
His real concern about the Redcliffe issue is not about principles. It's solely or primarily about what Eamon would think of him.

Sure, because Alistair is totally not one who would be shocked and disgusted when faced with the reality that you just killed a child, no matter whose family it is.

Eamon is just the icing on the cake of horror.