804 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
At the end of the day, as strange as it may sound, Morrigan turns out to be the least self-centered and is capable of setting aside her feelings to do what must be done.
Morrigan: "What I want...is not important now" in WH.

And in DA2 we learn that she did all this for entirely altruistic reasons. <_<

Wishful thinking?

[spacehamsterZH]

Me, I just can't get over the fact that he's the guy from Uncharted 2. Everytime Alistair opens his mouth, I expect Nathan Drake to run on screen and shoot everybody.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
His real concern about the Redcliffe issue is not about principles. It's solely or primarily about what Eamon would think of him.

Sure, because Alistair is totally not one who would be shocked and disgusted when faced with the reality that you just killed a child, no matter whose family it is.

Eamon is just the icing on the cake of horror.

A- he's the one who suggested it.
B- he is as angry when Isolde is sacrificed.

Sure, both are horrible from hsi perspective.
However, when you use the cunning option on him and tell him that his problem is not about you, but about him and Eamon, he practically admits it. And admits he's wrong. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[metalcraze33]

Yeah he is shocked and horrified so is the person who actaully had to kill the child so the hatred comes in when he turns on his comrade or gf and screams at them that they ALONE murdered a little boy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
At the end of the day, as strange as it may sound, Morrigan turns out to be the least self-centered and is capable of setting aside her feelings to do what must be done.
Morrigan: "What I want...is not important now" in WH.

And in DA2 we learn that she did all this for entirely altruistic reasons. <_<

Wishful thinking?

I didn't say it's altruistic and I certainly hope not.
Self-centered =/= selfish.

However, what I meant is that Morrigan was able to put her feelings aside and look at the bigger picture.

[nos_astra]

metalcraze33 wrote...
Yeah he is shocked and horrified so is the person who actaully had to kill the child so the hatred comes in when he turns on his comrade or gf and screams at them that they ALONE murdered a little boy.

You are the leader, it's your decision. You didn't have to kill the child, you chose to.

[metalcraze33]

but he is just as responsible he was there and he said to do it

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I didn't say it's altruistic and I certainly hope not.
Self-centered =/= selfish.

However, what I meant is that Morrigan was able to put her feelings aside and look at the bigger picture.

Um, self-centered and selfish are very close.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

However, what I meant is that Morrigan was able to put her feelings aside and look at the bigger picture.

As I said up above, this is a function of being a pragmatic vs. an idealistic character.  You have your personal preference for which kind of person you admire, but that's not a universal.  The same thing you see as praise-worthy in Morrigan is what causes other people to dislike her as a stone-cold b*tch.

And Morrigan is arguably more self-centered than any of the NPC companions.  She's always out for personal power and survival, as she even tells you.  I believe she has a larger picture in mind, but that's one of the driving forces of her character, so it's a little ironic you choose to contrast her to Alistair in that respect.

Re the Landsmeet, we'll never agree on that.  But just because Alistair overreacts doesn't mean that he isn't reacting on principle.

[Zjarcal]

klarabella wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...
Yeah he is shocked and horrified so is the person who actaully had to kill the child so the hatred comes in when he turns on his comrade or gf and screams at them that they ALONE murdered a little boy.

You are the leader, it's your decision. You didn't have to kill the child, you chose to.

There is a chance that you're forced to kill Connor if you attempt to enter Eamon's room. In that case (which is what happened to my Dalish), it isn't a matter of choice anymore.

EDIT: And no, my character hadn't expressed a desire to kill Connor earlier. She asked for more time to make her decision.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:14 .

[nos_astra]

metalcraze33 wrote...
but he is just as responsible he was there and he said to do it

He is and you can be certain that he hates himself for it. Doesn't mean he won't yell at you because he need to vent.

[nos_astra]

Zjarcal wrote...

klarabella wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...
Yeah he is shocked and horrified so is the person who actaully had to kill the child so the hatred comes in when he turns on his comrade or gf and screams at them that they ALONE murdered a little boy.

You are the leader, it's your decision. You didn't have to kill the child, you chose to.

There is a chance that you're forced to kill Connor if you attempt to enter Eamon's room. In that case (which is what happened to my Dalish), it isn't a matter of choice anymore.

You chose to sneak around there and it went wrong. You're still repsonsible.

[metalcraze33]

If my character didn't think they could further their own agenda when he becomes king they might have let anora kill him just for that

[Zjarcal]

Aghh, nvmd.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok, I didn't phrase well what I meant when I mentionned Morrigan. What I meant is that she is capable of looking at the bigger picture and set her feelings aside, something Alistair is incapable of doing. And it's not for me a question of idealism vs pragmatism. It's rather about emotion vs reason.

Also power for Morrigan = survival, which of course she is concerned with. That doesn't make her any more self-centered than all of us with survival instincts, she has a sligthly different one since she was not raised in a society like we were (I assume).

Addai67 wrote...
Re the Landsmeet, we'll never agree on that.  But just because Alistair overreacts doesn't mean that he isn't reacting on principle.

He not only overreacts, he reacts irrationally and incoherently, which for me cannot be based on a principle (which is supposed to be coherent). It's rather a mostly emotional reaction, with very little thinking going on (and principles are not solely emotional, they are supposed to be though-out positions). Saying that you want to be the king of an entire nation solely to kill one man is not a rational position, it's emotional.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:19 .

[Mondo47]

Actually, just to get to the heart of it, do you know why I really hate Alistair?

He killed my warden.

Seriously. I mean, I spent half the game thinking this excuse for a man whined more than a model with a chipped nail, his jokes were dire, his constant b*tching at Morrigan was the most revolting display of deflection I've ever seen outside of a primary school playground (and I hated her too - those two were made for each other in my book... between her monumental arrogance and his monumental stupidity... thank the gods they never got involved, humanity would have been doomed), his attempts at flirting made me want to puke blood, and don't even get me started on his 7th-wonder-of-the-world-scale stupidity. I mean, why couldn't Sten have been a love interest - for Christ's sake BioWare, give me a real man, not some ****** sidekick. But as soon as my warden got involved with Leliana... I don't know... I just got all maternal! Alistair became less of a scorching case of herpes (which he was like constantly) and more of a... child. An annoying one. Who needed protecting, needed picking up and his knees dusting off, needed his tears drying and needed encouraging to eat his greens and do his best at school...

I couldn't hate him anymore! At least hate-hate him. I was responsible for him! Letting him die would make me a terrible mother! There was no way I was letting that other ****** Loghain live (monster that he was - had to die), so... I had to kiss Leliana goodbye and go die. For my adopted child. Who was probably never going to grow up. And be a lousy king. And never learn to flirt with women.

That noise is me banging my head on the desk... <_<

So that's why I really hate him. He might have been an insufferable douchebag, but I could forgive all the stupidity and the total incompatability with my concept of what makes a man even remotely attractive, what I couldn't forgive was making my warden break Leliana's heart. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go cry some more...

F*cking Alistair! He turns up in Dragon Age 2, I'm kicking him in the nuts. For a month...

[metalcraze33]

Which is why I don't understand calling Morrigan evil she is just practical

[metalcraze33]

mondo47 is my new favorite person that rant was awesome

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Everyone is self-centered in one way or the other. However, with Alistair it's much more apparent than with others. It makes him unable to see the bigger picture.

I agree he is unable to see the bigger picture, but not because of self-centeredness. It is because of stubborn self-delusions and a rather dangerous unrealistic outlook on the world that he is unwilling to change.

His objection to the Isolde / Connor is solely based on what Eamon would think of him, as if that's the most important thing at stake at the moment.

Again I disagree. While it does come up in his rant, in the end, it comes down to a fear of failing Eamon and disappointing him. While you might think it selfish, I do not. Selfish is, when you have the bigger picture in your sights, and have proper perspective, you still choose whatever suits or pleases you the most. Alistair lacks perspective and the bigger picture. Again, as we both know, Alistair is mostly heart and little head.

His objection about Loghain, driving him to claim a throne he doesn't want and eventually abandon the fight against the Blight, is also a very apparent self-centered concern with an indifference to the larger things at stake (the kingdom and the blight).

Again, i disagree that this is a case of selfishness. it is a case of unrelenting, unforgiving, and unyielding hatred, the "dark side", if you will, consuming him. He loved Duncan and the grey Wardens. Loghain in his mind killed both. Alistair feels it is his sacred duty to avenge his fallen brothers, at the cost of everything else. It is a case where his most personal, sacred ideals become his potential downfall, and his darker side fully emerging and consuming him.

Again, being incapable of seeing the big picture and reacting on a very basic level, is not selfishness. And depending on the character being played, perfectly reasonable.

He is not the only one, but it's more apparent with him. The others might complain about some choices due to personal biases and preconceptions, but they never complained about two choices presented for one situation, like Alistair did (and with quite a lot of anger). And they, more often then not, can be persuaded to approve or lose a few approval points, whereas Alistair has to lose a lot approval points for the Redcliffe issue (that can be minimized but it's still a loss) and can be very hard to convince on the Landsmeet issue (and he would hate you).

Again, I disagree. Alistair, along with Morrigan, are the only two party members that never attack you.. And depending on how one handles an individual situation, you can end up losing massive amounts of approval for stupid, selfish reasons. The approval loss at redcliffe is small if the situation is handled tactfully, really, his fit is not a big deal. I've lost way more approval with other companions for dumber reasons.

As far as the Landsmeet is concerned, in his mind you betrayed your order and your mentor and sided with the man who he, as well as others, consider their murderer.

Zevran can be persuaded to slaughter the Dalish, he isn't very adamant about it. He gets insulted if you ask him about the Dalish after killing them and that's a natural reaction. But it isn't as strong as Alistair's reaction.

And Alistair's reaction to killing the family of a man he admired, how ever wrongly, is less normal than Zevran, an assasin's anger at slaughtering a bunch of people he never knew?

At the end of the day, as strange as it may sound, Morrigan turns out to be the least self-centered and is capable of setting aside her feelings to do what must be done.
Morrigan: "What I want...is not important now" in WH.

So you may think, but again, i disagree. Reject her ritual, she abandons you on the even of the Blight as you march to face the archdemon, even if you have legit reasons for refusing. No reason is given why she does so, or why not having god baby suddenly ends her support for you in your important task. Your making god baby is paramont to everything else, even the Blight. And even to this day, after witch hunt, we have no clue as to what the purpose behind god baby and Morrigan's mysterious omens is, or what its signiofigance is. For all we know, it could be something quite selfish in the end.

It all really depends on perspective.

[Zjarcal]

Mondo47 wrote...

Actually, just to get to the heart of it, do you know why I really hate Alistair?

He killed my warden.

Seriously. I mean, I spent half the game thinking this excuse for a man whined more than a model with a chipped nail, his jokes were dire, his constant b*tching at Morrigan was the most revolting display of deflection I've ever seen outside of a primary school playground (and I hated her too - those two were made for each other in my book... between her monumental arrogance and his monumental stupidity... thank the gods they never got involved, humanity would have been doomed), his attempts at flirting made me want to puke blood, and don't even get me started on his 7th-wonder-of-the-world-scale stupidity. I mean, why couldn't Sten have been a love interest - for Christ's sake BioWare, give me a real man, not some ****** sidekick. But as soon as my warden got involved with Leliana... I don't know... I just got all maternal! Alistair became less of a scorching case of herpes (which he was like constantly) and more of a... child. An annoying one. Who needed protecting, needed picking up and his knees dusting off, needed his tears drying and needed encouraging to eat his greens and do his best at school...

I couldn't hate him anymore! At least hate-hate him. I was responsible for him! Letting him die would make me a terrible mother! There was no way I was letting that other ****** Loghain live (monster that he was - had to die), so... I had to kiss Leliana goodbye and go die. For my adopted child. Who was probably never going to grow up. And be a lousy king. And never learn to flirt with women.

That noise is me banging my head on the desk... <_<

So that's why I really hate him. He might have been an insufferable douchebag, but I could forgive all the stupidity and the total incompatability with my concept of what makes a man even remotely attractive, what I couldn't forgive was making my warden break Leliana's heart. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go cry some more...

F*cking Alistair! He turns up in Dragon Age 2, I'm kicking him in the nuts. For a month...

Ahhh, I had heard you explain this on our group once, but not in so much detail.

Great rant!

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[metalcraze33]

does the fact that i just pictured Sten naked make me a bad person? 0.o

Modifié par metalcraze33, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:28 .

[Addai]

Mondo47 wrote...
F*cking Alistair! He turns up in Dragon Age 2, I'm kicking him in the nuts. For a month...

LOL  This was a great rant.  And your avatar complements it so well!!

[frostajulie]

Dalira Montanti wrote...

Are you not getting a bit to emotional over a dare I say it an NPC who is not even real?
what happen did he dump you at the landsmeet or something?

What was the point of this post other than to dig at someones legitimate opinion? So what if Alistair did dimp her at the landsmeet, does that make her opinion, backed up by good points any less valid than yours?  I don't think so.  Why is is so often when someone hates on alistair 5 or 6 posters come in asking snarky questions like that?


The fact is Alistair is an amzing character but so is every other party member ESPECIALLY the love interests mainly because of all the surprising twists their romances can take and lets face it Alistair was Biowares leading man.

There are many resons to love alistair and just as many to despise him.  Half the fun of an RPG is getting emotional.

Here is another reson to hate Alistiar, he is a narrow minded Bully and he was the instigator of the feud between himself and Morrigan for a guy who acts so goody good those qualities are pretty repulsive in anyone.  Alistair was lucky he was funny sop my non mages quickly forgot his bit of snark.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Again I disagree. While it does come up in his rant, in the end, it comes down to a fear of failing Eamon and disappointing him. While you might think it selfish, I do not. Selfish is, when you have the bigger picture in your sights, and have proper perspective, you still choose whatever suits or pleases you the most. Alistair lacks perspective and the bigger picture. Again, as we both know, Alistair is mostly heart and little head.

And that is being self-centered.

I think the impass here is that you believe that self centered = selfish.
I don't use it in the same way. I might be using it wrong I guess, I apologize for that. What I mean by self-centered is that he can't look at the big picture and takes things too personally, being unable to even try to look at them objectively. Reacting on his feelings is, for me, necessarily self-centered as feelings are purely subjective.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Again, i disagree that this is a case of selfishness. it is a case of unrelenting, unforgiving, and unyielding hatred, the "dark side", if you will, consuming him. He loved Duncan and the grey Wardens. Loghain in his mind killed both. Alistair feels it is his sacred duty to avenge his fallen brothers, at the cost of everything else. It is a case where his most personal, sacred ideals become his potential downfall, and his darker side fully emerging and consuming him.

Hatred is self-centered, not necessarily selfish.
And I disagree about it being ideals. It's rather his personal sacred feelings on the matter that cause his downfall.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Again, being incapable of seeing the big picture and reacting on a very basic level, is not selfishness. And depending on the character being played, perfectly reasonable.

Yes, I never said he was selfish.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
As far as the Landsmeet is concerned, in his mind you betrayed your order and your mentor and sided with the man who he, as well as others, consider their murderer.

When he deserts the fight against the Blight, he is doing just that. Hence the inconsitency and why I see it as a self-centered emotional reaction, with no consideration of the larger picture, only his own feelings.

So all in all, we mostly agree. The impass is on how  we define "self-centered". For me, Alistair is not selfish. But he is self-centered, in the sense he takes things too personally and bases it a lot on his personal feelings with little to no consideration of the larger things at stake.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, I didn't phrase well what I meant when I mentionned Morrigan. What I meant is that she is capable of looking at the bigger picture and set her feelings aside, something Alistair is incapable of doing. And it's not for me a question of idealism vs pragmatism. It's rather about emotion vs reason.

It's the same thing.  And Morrigan is not a reasonable person.  She, along with Alistair, can rarely be persuaded out of her settled opinions on things, even if in the big picture what she wants you to do could be harmful to your cause or just dumb.

He not only overreacts, he reacts irrationally and incoherently, which for me cannot be based on a principle (which is supposed to be coherent). It's rather a mostly emotional reaction, with very little thinking going on (and principles are not solely emotional, they are supposed to be though-out positions). Saying that you want to be the king of an entire nation solely to kill one man is not a rational position, it's emotional.

It's a little irritating that you think people who are emotion-driven don't also have rational thought processes, or that idealism is a priori an incoherent way to be.  The stone-cold pragmatist is not necessarily the better person.

Sometimes the emotion overrides, as in Alistair's inability to reconcile himself (until later) to sparing Loghain.  But just because emotion is involved does not mean that there is not also a rational element.  He reasons, Loghain's crimes demand justice.  That is a rational POV.  When he sees the principle of justice being violated, he can't simply back down.  He reacts, and in this case overreacts, but the principle came first and isn't invalidated by the fact that he makes a bad call later on.