804 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord_Anthonior]

metalcraze33 wrote...

and how the heck does he see a guy who made him sleep in the stables as a father figure?

He does have some father issues since he is a bastard and left in a chantry, first Maric, then Eamon sent him to the chantry wich the father figure thing started, then duncan and in the party even wynne! that grown up man has some childish issues instead of others more important in a time of war and doom for the land.

Though if you hate alistair, the best thing to do besides this thread is just leave him at camp during the entire game, if you don't care about how he yells at you for Killing connor or isolde then let him whine, yell and pout either way you can get rid of him during the landsmeet and if you don't see any need for hardening just don't give him any gifts or engage in any conversations, just as simple as that.

In my opinion, he is not exactly an essential character because  you can have a tank and make either Sten or Oghren a templar (things that alistair could be considered to be) and for the throne there is always the option of Anora and still kill Loghain or let him live, or put him on the throne even if he again pouts about it, time to take some responsability wether he likes it or not he is not a kid anymore.

As a Warden and PC (personally), Morrigan is more important because I wouldn't want to die in a game and origin that is about my character (in a way about myself)  so obviously I always go for the ritual (plus of my romance with her). But be that as it may, the game is to enjoy, have fun, hate some characters and love others all in all is a great game. :happy:

[metalcraze33]

stone-cold pragmatism is a lot better when you are trying to save the wworld from a evil demon god who wants to nom on the world

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
It's the same thing.  And Morrigan is not a reasonable person.  She, along with Alistair, can rarely be persuaded out of her settled opinions on things, even if in the big picture what she wants you to do could be harmful to your cause or just dumb.

Abandonning Redcliffe is not really detrumental to your cause at all.

It's a little irritating that you think people who are emotion-driven don't also have rational thought processes, or that idealism is a priori an incoherent way to be.  The stone-cold pragmatist is not necessarily the better person.

You are not understanding me. It's the exact opposite of what I am saying. Idealism is a thought out rational position mixed with feelings. If it's incoherent, then it's not really an ideal or a principle, it's just an emotional reaction without much thinking.

 He reacts, and in this case overreacts, but the principle came first and isn't invalidated by the fact that he makes a bad call later on.

It does, because it shows which is more important to him and what really motivated him at the moment.
The fact that his emotion got the best of him, means that his adherence to principles which he contradicted is not as strong. He isn't overreacting, he is doing the exact opposite of what he is supposed to do. This is him being incoherent and hypocritical, not simply overreacting.

If it was really a sense of principles that motivated him, I cannot see how he would ever condemn an entire nation because of one man. He might absolutely hate sparing Loghain and that's fine, he is being coherent. But the fact that he leaves shows that avenging Duncan (a self-centered yearn) is more important to him than his principles that he is violating, at the moment.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Sometimes the emotion overrides, as in Alistair's inability to reconcile himself (until later) to sparing Loghain.  But just because emotion is involved does not mean that there is not also a rational element.  He reasons, Loghain's crimes demand justice.  That is a rational POV.  When he sees the principle of justice being violated, he can't simply back down.  He reacts, and in this case overreacts, but the principle came first and isn't invalidated by the fact that he makes a bad call later on.

What is rational about his abandoning the fight against the Blight? Does his duty to Duncan override his duty against the Blight? 

[Mondo47]

You know, if someone went to all the effort to make a Slap Morrigan mod, is a Kick the Snot out of Alistair mod too much to ask? Mention licking lampposts and bam - he's picking his teeth up and whining for his Daddy-Duncan.

I bet Morrigan would approve of that. And Sten. And Shale. And Dog. And...

[metalcraze33]

His duty to duncan should be stopping the blight because if anyone had talked to duncan for nly a few minutes they would realise that is all he wanted

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@ KoP:

Ahh, ok, now I see which point you are trying to make, with the term self-centered. For me the two terms are interchangable, as everyone I knew who were self centered were also incredibly selfish people.

And we do agree that Alistair suffers from a terminal lack of perspective and long term thinking. It is a flaw, but for me, not a fatal one in a character. While I don't really fault Alistair for going ballistic at ladnsmeet, and could even understand it, I do not disagree either that it is irrational or incredibly short sighted, and can understand a reaction of disgust or utter betrayal by a Warden who spares Loghain for reasons other than selfishness or sadism, and thus, consider it a valid opinion, and reason to, either execute or exile Alistair.

But in terms of character wise, I do not find him shallow or undeveloped, quite the opposite, the lad has serious issues and suffers some serious personal failings, which for me, because of the different angles I have interacted with him from, makes him more interesting for me.

But as I said in another thread, I've always had a soft spot for characters in any RPG that are mental in some very noticable and remarkable way, from pleasantly mental to out and out psychotic/unstable (examples from past RPGs: dark Virgil in Arcanum, Kefka in FF6, Bishop in NWN2, Xanos in NWN SoU, Xan, Shar Teel, Tiax, and Xzar in Baldur's Gate 1, Cid in FF7, ect)

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[metalcraze33]

Well all of the companions in this game have some pretty serious emotional problems alistair is the only one acting like a 4 year old

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

What is rational about his abandoning the fight against the Blight? Does his duty to Duncan override his duty against the Blight? 

That would be the overreaction part.  I said the rational came before that, in the principle of seeing Loghain pay for his crimes.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

metalcraze33 wrote...

Well all of the companions in this game have some pretty serious emotional problems alistair is the only one acting like a 4 year old

Not really. The companions might have checkered pasts, but none of them have serious issues like Alistair.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

And we do agree that Alistair suffers from a terminal lack of perspective and long term thinking. It is a flaw, but for me, not a fatal one in a character.

Fatal in the sense it can get him killed, but in terms of character, no it's not a fatal flaw in the sense of making him a bad character. It makes him more interesting and not one-dimensional. Absolutely. 

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But in terms of character wise, I do not find him shallow or undeveloped, quite the opposite, the lad has serious issues and suffers some serious personal failings, which for me, because of the different angles I have interacted with him from, makes him more interesting for me.

I agree absolutely. I do find other companions more interesting than him, but he is definitely interesting. I didn't feel he provided much to my personal experience with the game however (And that is imo. I know many would consider Alistair and the romance to be an integral part of the experience, just like I do vis a vis the Morigan romance). But all in all, he is a good interesting character. As a person, I would mildly like him but I am sure I wouldn't get along with him. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:00 .

[Lord_Anthonior]

Mondo47 wrote...

You know, if someone went to all the effort to make a Slap Morrigan mod, is a Kick the Snot out of Alistair mod too much to ask? Mention licking lampposts and bam - he's picking his teeth up and whining for his Daddy-Duncan.
I bet Morrigan would approve of that. And Sten. And Shale. And Dog. And...

You read my mind and I do second that!!

...and Oghren. And Zevran. And Loghain....

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
It's the same thing.  And Morrigan is not a reasonable person.  She, along with Alistair, can rarely be persuaded out of her settled opinions on things, even if in the big picture what she wants you to do could be harmful to your cause or just dumb.

Abandonning Redcliffe is not really detrumental to your cause at all.

The way the game has it, it isn't, but that's nerfed.  You should have a dramatically reduced troop force with lower morale and a dead Teagan.  Probably a dead everyone.  Redcliffe is a messed up quest.

But that is not the only place where Morrigan reacts in a way that's just dumb.  Like advising a city elf to kill her father for a very minimal boost in constitution.

If it was really a sense of principles that motivated him, I cannot see how he would ever condemn an entire nation because of one man. He might absolutely hate sparing Loghain and that's fine, he is being coherent. But the fact that he leaves shows that avenging Duncan (a self-centered yearn) is more important to him than his principles that he is violating, at the moment.

Well, at least you admit he has them.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...

Well all of the companions in this game have some pretty serious emotional problems alistair is the only one acting like a 4 year old

Not really. The companions might have checkered pasts, but none of them have serious issues like Alistair.

Somehow, when I read this, I think "he's bad and he needs to be spanked." 

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

What is rational about his abandoning the fight against the Blight? Does his duty to Duncan override his duty against the Blight? 

That would be the overreaction part.  I said the rational came before that, in the principle of seeing Loghain pay for his crimes.

So he lets this overreation drag out forever? I don't mind him walking out of the Landsmeet. I don't mind him refusing to be led around by me any further. But if Alistair's own principles demand that Loghain face justice, then his own principles should demand that he continues to fight the blight. Instead he just decides that principles don't matter, and he abandons the fight.

[metalcraze33]

Not true Zevran grew up in a **** house what do you think went on before he became a crow and plus they tortured him too he has a lot of trust issues. leliana thinks the maker is sending her visions morrigan was stilling living with her demon witch mother at 30 or so all issues worse than Alistair's

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
The way the game has it, it isn't, but that's nerfed.  You should have a dramatically reduced troop force with lower morale and a dead Teagan.  Probably a dead everyone.  Redcliffe is a messed up quest.

It is, and that's why I don't like it.
The reality is, the whole army at the Castle was butchered and that small village cannot provie any meaningful aid against the Blight. In fact, the Redcliffe force we get at the end are hired mercenaries. 

So even in theory had this quest not been messed up, there would be valid rational reasons to do either choice and none are strictly dumb, except if done for dumb reasons but that's dependent on the one making the choice.

But that is not the only place where Morrigan reacts in a way that's just dumb.  Like advising a city elf to kill her father for a very minimal boost in constitution.

That's not really dumb, that's heartless. Yea the reward is pitiful and I would have expected a +10 constitution. But it isn't dumb, how could she know that it's only +1.
It might be dumb from our perspective, but Morrigan has no real concept of family (she even mocks the idea in a romance).  So it's more alien and inconsiderate than dumb, imo.

Well, at least you admit he has them.

Yes he has them. But I question their importance to him. He knows that the wardens do whatever is necessary, he saw Duncan kill Jory. And he can be persuaded to do the ethically questionable decisions (from his perspective) save one, which is personal.

The way I interpret the character, his feelings supercede whatever principles he has, during the Landsmeet. 
And his objection about Redcliffe was more about feelings and what Eamon would think of him, than principles.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have principles. He just is not zealous or adamant about them that much, imo.
For me, he is primarily a man of feelings, not a man of principles. Sten is more leaning towards being a man of principles (that we don't share).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

What is rational about his abandoning the fight against the Blight? Does his duty to Duncan override his duty against the Blight? 

That would be the overreaction part.  I said the rational came before that, in the principle of seeing Loghain pay for his crimes.

So he lets this overreation drag out forever? I don't mind him walking out of the Landsmeet. I don't mind him refusing to be led around by me any further. But if Alistair's own principles demand that Loghain face justice, then his own principles should demand that he continues to fight the blight. Instead he just decides that principles don't matter, and he abandons the fight.

Are you looking for an argument?  In saying that he overreacts, I'm obviously agreeing that his reaction was an... overreaction.  As he comes to realize, too.  But by then he's on a ship to the Free Marches, and what his he supposed to do afterward?  He can't face having let himself and others down, so he drinks.  That's a pretty big acknowledgement that he realizes he was wrong to leave.

[metalcraze33]

yeah because drinkng is way better than finding a way to redeeem himself

grrr need a sarcasm emote

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Fatal in the sense it can get him killed, but in terms of character, no it's not a fatal flaw in the sense of making him a bad character. It makes him more interesting and not one-dimensional. Absolutely. 

That too. Though even if he lives, it is a fatal flaw in terms of personal growth, development, and psychological growth further down the line. If he lives when you spare Loghain (either through exile or marriage to Anora) he will have the deep regret of realizing later, that he did indeed disgrace Duncan's memory by abandoning the only Warden in the midst of a blight. Such guilt and self regret can be emotionally, morally, and spiritually fatal to the person he is. as we see he becomes a miserable, self defeating drunk if exiled. Depending on one;s own beliefs and values, having Alistair executed can be considered a more humane option than letting him live with the soul killing burden of his biggest mistake.

I agree absolutely. I do find other companions more interesting than him, but he is definitely interesting. I didn't feel he provided much to my personal experience with the game however (And that is imo. I know many would consider Alistair and the romance to be an integral part of the experience, just like I do vis a vis the Morigan romance). But all in all, he is a good interesting character. As a person, I would mildly like him but I am sure I wouldn't get along with him. 

That is part of the DA experience: certain characters really make or break the game for different people for different reasons, but they manage to make some sort of impact, good or bad, on the experience. Alistair's romance, while not intergral to my enjoyment of the game (playing Lucrezia who remained loveless in game and antoganostic towards Alistair was far more rewarding and enjoyable than playing a goody two-shoes in a romance with him) it certainly is my favorite RPG romance experience thus far in any game. But more importantly, interacting with Alistair from different perspectives/ characters and seeing him in different scenarios is really the best part for me.

In real life, I would probably get along with Alistair just fine, especially after I've spent some tough love moments beating a little bit of perspective. For his own good, of course.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

metalcraze33 wrote...

Not true Zevran grew up in a **** house what do you think went on before he became a crow and plus they tortured him too he has a lot of trust issues. leliana thinks the maker is sending her visions morrigan was stilling living with her demon witch mother at 30 or so all issues worse than Alistair's

Err, no, you really missed my point entirely. No matter.

[metalcraze33]

Skadi probably but my point is they don't whine about their issues when the world is at stake While is is reasonable to break down after such horrible events at some point you have to find a way to deal with it and do your duty because you are a warden and that is what matters.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
In real life, I would probably get along with Alistair just fine, especially after I've spent some tough love moments beating a little bit of perspective. For his own good, of course.

....do I want to know how this process is going to work?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:20 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
In real life, I would probably get along with Alistair just fine, especially after I've spent some tough love moments beating a little bit of perspective. For his own good, of course.

....do I want to know how this process is going to work?

[Morrigan Voice] No. You really don't!

@metal: Unless I play a different PC game alltogether, I really don't see the "whing" everyone "whines" about. Showing sadness and grief over the death of someone dear to you is not "whining". Emotional, yes. But emotional does not=whining. All of the other characters share something in their past with you, or their opinions on the matter, and how you treat them in that conversation will determine their approval/reaction towards you. One could just as easily say the other characters whine, when presented with the right circumstances.

David Gaider addressed that issue quite well, I think. But sadly, we live in a day and age where being an emotional individual is "whiny", especially if they are male.

[TJPags]

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair and Connor really does show Alistair at his worst, as far as leading goes. I go back to my first playthrough where my city elf was madly in love with Alistair. OMG. I did kill Connor. Blood magic was out. Everyone was telling me there was really no time to go to the mage tower. Even Connor was saying he had no clue when the bad lady would return. Alistair, though obviously not happy, does seem to think it's the good idea.

When got back to camp, I honestly was expecting a bit of sympathy because that whole scene was rough. Instead, I got the whole, "You KILLED Connor! How could you kill a little boy?" Bleh, it was bad. Since I was nice, I didn't lose much approval, but it hit hard.

You know, this is a very good example of why I can't stand Alistair.

I'm standing there in Redcliffe, first playthrough, I ask for opinions, and Alsitair basically says - go ahead, kill Isolde, it's the only way.  Then I get back to camp - and he goes baslistic, as if he didn't SUGGEST this and RECOMEND it in the first place.

If they wanted to make this at ALL believable, he should have been objecting left and right when you ask him what to do, not suggest this and then jump all over you in camp.

EccentricSage wrote...

TJPags wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is the most likable and real-seeming character in the game.

Umm, no.
IMO, he is one dimensional, and hardly likeable.  I'd rate Morrigan as the most real seeming character in the game.

I have to disagree with him being one dimensional.  Alistair does have some complex psychological reasons for being the blundering fool that he can so often be.  It makes sense that, having been an orphan rumored to be a bastard of a noble, he was an unloved outcast his whole childhood.  Someone who was never good enough and just a burden.  Even though he seems to place Eamon on a pedistal, fact remains that Alistair lived in a freekn' barn, if I'm remembering corectly... he didn't even get to live in the castle.  It's like he was always tolerated and told he was welcome there, but was never really welcome there and felt it.  But it was all he knew.  Eamon's tolerance and support via basic survival requirements were all Alistair had that he could look up to Eamon for.  But that was all Alistair knew.

Then he gets sent off to the Chantry at a young age because marrying Isold was more important to Alistair's father figure than his own welfare was.  He says he was rebelious and isn't that religious, but you can see in various dialogues how much his time in the chantry colored his way of thinking.  A good example would be that discussion Zevran has with him about religion, or the way Alistair's first reaction to Morrigan is 'OMG!  APOSTATE!  DON'T TRUST IT, IT'S EVIL!'  and then, even after she helps you, if you bring up the subject when you get back to Dunkan, does Alistair say she helped?  No, he says there are apostates in the forest, and says it as though it's a horrible thing.  This is one of the things that makes me want to slap him around, but considering his upbringing and training, I kind of understand how hard wired he is to react that way.

I think something that is easy for us to forget is that Alistair has only been a Grey Warden for about one year.  It was long enough to become deeply atached to Dunkan, who rescued him from becoming a Templar, which he had no choice in, and who treeted him with respect and saw potential in him others did not.  That had to have been very powerful for him.  I completely understand why he takes Dunkan's death so hard.  But it's also understandable that a year in Grey Warden training isn't going to erase a lifetime of never being held or loved, and it won't erase half his youth or more being indoctrinated by the Chantry.

Despite the influence of the Chantry, he will treat most mages erespectfully and has no problem being a close friend or romancing your warden if she's a mage.  The landsmeet is a mess that IMO shows how unprepared Alistair is.  He's only just starting to get to know himself, and during a blight no less.  Now he ether needs to become King and try to follow in the footsteps of a father he never knew, or face the Arch demon knowing that ether one of you has to die, or he has to do a questionable ritual with someone he beleaves is a maleficar.  He's really not in a very happy place.

I think he's foolish and week, but he's a kind person at heart, with naive good intentions that are simply not backed up by much confidence.  David Gaider said that Xander from Buffy the Vampire Slayer was an influence on his writing of Alistair.  Well, I can say in Mr. Gaider's and Alistaires favor that I hate Xander far more than Alistair, and I at least find Alistair's issues more beleavable and understandable, and his sense of humor more amusing, and generally find him more usefull than Xander was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  (Anya deserved better than him!)

And you know, I get the whole "poor Alistair, horrible childhood" thing.  However, I can't put myself in his place and see it.

As you say, Eamon treats him as an afterthought as a child, yet he seems so beholden to him.  He gets shipped off to the Chantry by this guy, and yet STILL reveres him.  Then he transfers those feelings to Duncan.  And then to the Warden.

Where is the self-reliance, or did he never develop that?  I really see his character as very needy, placing unreasonable expectations on others to somehow live up to an ideal that he creates for you, and when you don't, he acts likes it's a betrayal.