804 réponses à ce sujet

[metalcraze33]

Has nothing to do with him being male It has to do with him not putting his feelings aside for the greater good like a warden is supposed to

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
And you know, I get the whole "poor Alistair, horrible childhood" thing.  However, I can't put myself in his place and see it.

In terms of childhoods, I would think Zevran got it worse and yet he is very self-reliant.

So while yes, understanding Alistair's upbringing is crucial in understanding the character, he also has traits that are not necessarily solely due to his upbringing. I hesitate to say they are innate, because I don't know. But they are not necessarily solely acquired from upbringing.

EDIT: well to be fair, Zevran's Crow training might have contributed a great deal to his self-reliance.
It's hard to picture Alistair in a what if scenario. How different would he be? We can't really know. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:52 .

[Addai]

metalcraze33 wrote...

Skadi probably but my point is they don't whine about their issues when the world is at stake While is is reasonable to break down after such horrible events at some point you have to find a way to deal with it and do your duty because you are a warden and that is what matters.

??  Are we still talking about the Landsmeet walkout?  Because Alistair does his duty just fine the whole game, regardless of personal "issues."  And pretty much all the companions have personal crisis points in the game.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
Are you looking for an argument?  In saying that he overreacts, I'm obviously agreeing that his reaction was an... overreaction.  As he comes to realize, too.  But by then he's on a ship to the Free Marches, and what his he supposed to do afterward?  He can't face having let himself and others down, so he drinks.  That's a pretty big acknowledgement that he realizes he was wrong to leave.

Not on purpose.
I just have a hard time believing that Alistair's wanting Loghain dead has more to do with principles than revenge. I agree with KoP that Alistair's emotions seem to take precedence over his principles, which is partially evidenced by the magnitude of his overreaction.  

[metalcraze33]

I think Alistair's life is a personal crisis he reminds me of Jowan

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wardens are not supposed to do alot of things, but they do. They are not supposed to get involved in politics and become kingmakers, but they do. They are not supposed to chase after silly legends of magical ashes to cure some nobleman simply because his religous fanatic wife believes in their power. Nor are they supposed to sort out the petty and insignfigant problems of groups that are, by treaty, bound to support them in a Blight. But guess what. You did. Even though, concievably, in practical terms, there are ways to enforce compliance with the treaties that don't involve playing errand boy/girl. It's part game mechanics, but part storyline plot. And even in the pragmatic Wardens, an organization made up of very questionable people with often questionable ethics/morality views, it comes down to that in the end, everyone of them is an individual human. Complete with human issues.



Alistair would not be Alistair if he did behave as a "proper Warden". It would turn him into little more than a pointless automaton. And it would be pretty boring and OOC, I think.



And storywise, it worked marvelously, no matter which route you took.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Are you looking for an argument?  In saying that he overreacts, I'm obviously agreeing that his reaction was an... overreaction.  As he comes to realize, too.  But by then he's on a ship to the Free Marches, and what his he supposed to do afterward?  He can't face having let himself and others down, so he drinks.  That's a pretty big acknowledgement that he realizes he was wrong to leave.

Not on purpose.
I just have a hard time believing that Alistair's wanting Loghain dead has more to do with principles than revenge. I agree with KoP that Alistair's emotions seem to take precedence over his principles, which is partially evidenced by the magnitude of his overreaction.  

So essentially you're saying that all the people who execute Loghain do so only out of personal revenge on the part of their PCs?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And you know, I get the whole "poor Alistair, horrible childhood" thing.  However, I can't put myself in his place and see it.

In terms of childhoods, I would think Zevran got it worse and yet he is very self-reliant.

So while yes, understanding Alistair's upbringing is crucial in understandign the cahracter, he also have traits that are not solely due to his upbringing. I hesitate to say they are innate, because I don't know. But they are not necessarily solely acquired from upbringing.

Exactly.  Alistair never developed as a person.  Yet the way I see it, he SHOULD have. 

He is constantly projecting these feelings of "father figure" onto people, lead, me, like me, tell me what to do, etc.  He's emotionally well below his age in this regard, IMO, and throughout the game, it really never changes.

Look how he acts with Goldanna.  Here he finds he has a sister - who was kicked out of the castle after her mother died, unlike Alistair, who got to stay there.  Where did she go?  How did she survive?  How does she know he is who he claims?

Yet he walks into her house, expects to be welcomed with open arms, and is SHOCKED when he is not.  He can't see, can't understand, why she may resent him.

[metalcraze33]

Omg yes that is exactly the problem he never grows up emotionally, never really matures which he should considering all that's gone on. he finally does have a mature moment if you harden him and he becomes king but up until then he's emotionally a child.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
At the end of the day, as strange as it may sound, Morrigan turns out to be the least self-centered and is capable of setting aside her feelings to do what must be done.
Morrigan: "What I want...is not important now" in WH.

I will disagree about Morrigan being the least selfish.  Zevran as a friend actually is.  After you kill taliesen, if he leaves, he can start his life over, with no fear of the Crows.  They will assume he is dead.  Yet, he will stay with a friend warden if you ask him to stay, "as a friend."  He gives up his entire future of freedom out of friendship.

Of course, a love interest, he wants to stay, but that's more selfish.

[Reaverwind]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wardens are not supposed to do alot of things, but they do. They are not supposed to get involved in politics and become kingmakers, but they do. They are not supposed to chase after silly legends of magical ashes to cure some nobleman simply because his religous fanatic wife believes in their power. Nor are they supposed to sort out the petty and insignfigant problems of groups that are, by treaty, bound to support them in a Blight. But guess what. You did. Even though, concievably, in practical terms, there are ways to enforce compliance with the treaties that don't involve playing errand boy/girl. It's part game mechanics, but part storyline plot. And even in the pragmatic Wardens, an organization made up of very questionable people with often questionable ethics/morality views, it comes down to that in the end, everyone of them is an individual human. Complete with human issues.

Alistair would not be Alistair if he did behave as a "proper Warden". It would turn him into little more than a pointless automaton. And it would be pretty boring and OOC, I think.

And storywise, it worked marvelously, no matter which route you took.

The "proper" Wardens were prepared to abandon Fereldan to its fate. The almighty plothammer decided that wasn't an option for the PC.

[Mondo47]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

You read my mind and I do second that!!

...and Oghren. And Zevran. And Loghain....

Nah... I liked Zev. At least I got the feeling from him he'd have a clue what to do in the sack. Alistair... ugh... the highschool level of embarassment. Soooo not doing that again

As for Loghain... I wanted a Strangle the Wretched Coward with His Own Intestines mod for his sorry ass <_<

Ahhh... that thought will send me to bed with a smile...

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Exactly.  Alistair never developed as a person.  Yet the way I see it, he SHOULD have. 

He is constantly projecting these feelings of "father figure" onto people, lead, me, like me, tell me what to do, etc.  He's emotionally well below his age in this regard, IMO, and throughout the game, it really never changes.

Look how he acts with Goldanna.  Here he finds he has a sister - who was kicked out of the castle after her mother died, unlike Alistair, who got to stay there.  Where did she go?  How did she survive?  How does she know he is who he claims?

Yet he walks into her house, expects to be welcomed with open arms, and is SHOCKED when he is not.  He can't see, can't understand, why she may resent him.

I mostly agree. And yea though Goldanna is hated, I sympathise with her and I pity Alistiar's naivety.

Hardening might change him a bit, but I'd argue that being willing to do threesomes / foursomes and being unfaithful to one's marriage has little to do with being emotionally and mentally mature (it might even be the reverse). 

But I can see him, with the right help, change a bit. Though of course one can wonder if he doesnt' become reliant on the one helping him. Depends on if he is taught to fish, as opposed to just fed, so to speak.

[phaonica]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]Not on purpose.
I just have a hard time believing that Alistair's wanting Loghain dead has more to do with principles than revenge. I agree with KoP that Alistair's emotions seem to take precedence over his principles, which is partially evidenced by the magnitude of his overreaction.  [/quote]
So essentially you're saying that all the people who execute Loghain do so only out of personal revenge on the part of their PCs?[/quote] [/quote]

Only if somehow everyone who executes Loghain is playing Alistair as their PC. ..

Even if the Landsmeet had happened immediately following Ostagar, and the only "crime" of Loghain's that Alistair was aware of was the retreat (no slavery, no torture, no blaming the wardens, no anything, just the retreat), I think that Alistair would still overreact and still leave, based on Duncan's death alone.

edit: maybe i shouldn't have said immediately following ostagar, because the wound is still fresh at that point. more like if the year had passed and none of that other stuff had happened, Alistair would still call for Loghain's death.

Modifié par phaonica, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:16 .

[metalcraze33]

It kills me Alistair thinks his first time is going to be magic and fireworks

If he became king it would probably be a fumbling Embarrassing encounter with a noblewoman who just wanted power

[ejoslin]

metalcraze33 wrote...

It kills me Alistair thinks his first time is going to be magic and fireworks
If he became king it would probably be a fumbling Embarrassing encounter with a noblewoman who just wanted power

Hmmm, in my HNF playthroughs, his first time is with Morrigan.  His second time will probably be with some concubine.  Because I'm terrible that way!  The Queen Cousland divides her time between Denerim when needed and her Teyrnir of Gwaren.  With Zevran.  Because SOMEONE has to make an heir to the throne, and you know, a Cousland/Arainai baby would be one hell of a leader.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:06 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Exactly.  Alistair never developed as a person.  Yet the way I see it, he SHOULD have. 

He is constantly projecting these feelings of "father figure" onto people, lead, me, like me, tell me what to do, etc.  He's emotionally well below his age in this regard, IMO, and throughout the game, it really never changes.

Look how he acts with Goldanna.  Here he finds he has a sister - who was kicked out of the castle after her mother died, unlike Alistair, who got to stay there.  Where did she go?  How did she survive?  How does she know he is who he claims?

Yet he walks into her house, expects to be welcomed with open arms, and is SHOCKED when he is not.  He can't see, can't understand, why she may resent him.

I mostly agree. And yea though Goldanna is hated, I sympathise with her and I pity Alistiar's naivety.

Hardening might change him a bit, but I'd argue that being willing to do threesomes / foursomes and being unfaithful to one's marriage has little to do with being emotionally and mentally mature (it might even be the reverse). 

But I can see him, with the right help, change a bit. Though of course one can wonder if he doesnt' become reliant on the one helping him. Depends on if he is taught to fish, as opposed to just fed, so to speak.

Well, as a male, I've never been concerned with whether Alistair would do a threesome/foursome, and I completely agree that this has nothing at all to do with emotional maturity.

You make a good analogy with the fishing comment - except as I see it, Alistair doesn't want to learn how to fish, he just wants someone to take him fishing so they can bond.

[metalcraze33]

Don't you just love the terrified look on his face before morrigan blows out the candle?

[ejoslin]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Exactly.  Alistair never developed as a person.  Yet the way I see it, he SHOULD have. 

He is constantly projecting these feelings of "father figure" onto people, lead, me, like me, tell me what to do, etc.  He's emotionally well below his age in this regard, IMO, and throughout the game, it really never changes.

Look how he acts with Goldanna.  Here he finds he has a sister - who was kicked out of the castle after her mother died, unlike Alistair, who got to stay there.  Where did she go?  How did she survive?  How does she know he is who he claims?

Yet he walks into her house, expects to be welcomed with open arms, and is SHOCKED when he is not.  He can't see, can't understand, why she may resent him.

I mostly agree. And yea though Goldanna is hated, I sympathise with her and I pity Alistiar's naivety.

Hardening might change him a bit, but I'd argue that being willing to do threesomes / foursomes and being unfaithful to one's marriage has little to do with being emotionally and mentally mature (it might even be the reverse). 

But I can see him, with the right help, change a bit. Though of course one can wonder if he doesnt' become reliant on the one helping him. Depends on if he is taught to fish, as opposed to just fed, so to speak.

Well, as a male, I've never been concerned with whether Alistair would do a threesome/foursome, and I completely agree that this has nothing at all to do with emotional maturity.

You make a good analogy with the fishing comment - except as I see it, Alistair doesn't want to learn how to fish, he just wants someone to take him fishing so they can bond.

Alistair never does the foursome (Zevran turns it down when Isabela asks).  But the main personal reason for hardening Alistair for a femwarden (aside from that pesky better king business, which you may not want if you want to be the true power) is so he'll be willing to keep you as a mistress if you make him king and are not a HNF.

[metalcraze33]

Having zevran's child makes practical sense since you might never have one with Alistair as long as no one finds out

[ejoslin]

metalcraze33 wrote...

Having zevran's child makes practical sense since you might never have one with Alistair as long as no one finds out

Hah, Alistair will NEVER have one with his Queen in my game.  *grin*  Post landsmeet.

Alistair: They'll expect an heir you know.  With two gray wardens, it may not be possible.
Warden:  At least not YOUR heir!
Alistair: Should I be glad to hear that? I suppose I should be.

You have three adults going into the situation with their eyes open.  

[metalcraze33]

works for me lol

[Sarah1281]

As for Loghain... I wanted a Strangle the Wretched Coward with His Own Intestines mod for his sorry ass

You know, for all of Loghain's flaws I don't see how you can honestly call the man who calmly meets his death and spends his last moments comforting Anora or who begs you to let him give his life for his country even though he's been told his soul will be destroyed is a coward.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In terms of childhoods, I would think Zevran got it worse and yet he is very self-reliant.

So while yes, understanding Alistair's upbringing is crucial in understanding the character, he also has traits that are not necessarily solely due to his upbringing. I hesitate to say they are innate, because I don't know. But they are not necessarily solely acquired from upbringing.

EDIT: well to be fair, Zevran's Crow training might have contributed a great deal to his self-reliance.
It's hard to picture Alistair in a what if scenario. How different would he be? We can't really know. 

The points being made by me and others, I think, are not a comparison of whose childhood was worse than others, but pointing out that given his upbringing, Alistair's reactions and behavior in many situations makes sense.

Zevran's childhood was pretty twisted and cruel. But growing up around the seediest elements of society, working as little more than a trained slave for a notorious assassin brotherhood, as well as being a member of a despised race contribute greatly to Zevran's self-reliance and personal maturity/perspective. In Zevran's situation, doing anything else is almost certain death. It's adapt or die, and the harshest lessons forge stronger personal traits and durability.

Alistair's childhood, while not as tragic as Zevrans, did more to damage his ability to cope with things and survive in the real world than Zevran's. Alistair wasn't being sold into slavery or raped by perverts and used as a tool by some very ruthless, heartless people. Alistair's problem was pretty much that of a chained dog abandoned in a back yard: he got fed and watered, but humans need more than food and water to develop normally. Eamon's keeping him as little more than an inconvient mistake that might be necessary later had alot to do with it. Alistair was sheltered enough that he was not exposed to both ends of the human spectrum and saw little of the real world. Yet he was also ignored or shut away. This lack of even normal socialization is going to have a major effect on how he deals with people later in life. Being shipped off to the Chantry was probably the most signiofigant.

Religous organizations such as the Chantry exist to foster religous belief in an invisible power. As such, they do not foster something more important: reason and emotional maturity. Thus, growing up, Alistair never really learned important skills of necessary to be a self reliant adult: emotional maturity, rational perspective, and basic social and personal coping strategies. The Chantry does not really teach self reliance, as obiedience to the will of a being whose existance hasn't been proven, as well as total acceptance of Chantry dogma, are not very good ways to instill maturity, self reliance, broader perspective, in young children in your care. In fact, the majority of Chantry personnel, be they sisters or templars, really aren't the best shinign examples of any of the above. Some were even downright scary. Gregroire and Ser Bryant were about the only Chantry people in the game that I considered as being pretty levelheaded, stable individuals.

And in seeing the Chantry, for me, it explains a lot of Alistair's personal problems.

Alistair's inborn traits, I think, that are part of his basic persona, are his rather fantastic and somewhat gilded view of reality, his lack of personal ambition, and his off humor. I think his heart over head aspect is also part of who he is, as well as his irrational attachment to Eamon. I think innately, even if he had a normal upbringing, Alistair would still be prone to becoming easily manipulated by people he cared for or trusted, and would probably be easily taken advantage of if he was completely left to his own devices.

[metalcraze33]

He did abandon his best friends son to die horribly