804 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

metalcraze33 wrote...

He did abandon his best friends son to die horribly

Explain to me, even if that were true and I disagree with how you phrased it, how that equals cowardice? If the point was abandoning the son of his best friend and the love of his life to die horribly instead of retreating to try and save Ferelden, that would make him a horrible person. Not are ll horrible people are cowards and not all cowards are horrible people.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Mondo47 wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

You read my mind and I do second that!!

...and Oghren. And Zevran. And Loghain....

Nah... I liked Zev. At least I got the feeling from him he'd have a clue what to do in the sack. Alistair... ugh... the highschool level of embarassment. Soooo not doing that again

As for Loghain... I wanted a Strangle the Wretched Coward with His Own Intestines mod for his sorry ass <_<

Ahhh... that thought will send me to bed with a smile...

I meant that Zevran would also approve of the that mod as Morrigan and Ogren and the rest will.

[tuppence95]

metalcraze33 wrote...

Don't you just love the terrified look on his face before morrigan blows out the candle?

He has exactly the same expression on his face as the HNM who is in a romance with Morrigan.

TJPags wrote...

You make a good analogy with the fishing comment - except as I see it, Alistair doesn't want to learn how to fish, he just wants someone to take him fishing so they can bond.

This statement is most likely true in your playthrough, but that's not the only way his story can play out.  He can definitely learn to stand on his own and be assertive.  When judging any of the companions, it's a good idea to keep in mind that what you are seeing in your game is not the full picture.  Just based on my first playthrough, I could not stand Morrigan because all she did was complain through the entire game.  But keeping an open mind allowed me to go back and see a very different Morrigan.


All of the companions are flawed.  And some of their flaws can push our own personal buttons and upset us.  But damn, there sure is a lot of whining in this thread about how a game character is thought to be whining.  I don't like Rendon Howe in the game, but I'm not going to spend hours and hours complaining about him.  I don't like Loghain either, but the things I don't like about them are part of what makes this game so rich for me.  If every character did exactly what I wanted them to do, it would be a pretty boring game, and I doubt I'd still be playing it.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
David Gaider addressed that issue quite well, I think. But sadly, we live in a day and age where being an emotional individual is "whiny", especially if they are male.

David Gaider wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...
Rofl thats was priceless. But in all seriousness though Alistar is very whiney and sure does cry a lot.

No, he doesn't. Some players are whiny, however, and sure do cry a lot whenever any character dares to express a thought contrary to their own or maybe, I don't know, expresses an emotion. I think this says more about their shallowness than Alistair's whininess.

David Gaider wrote...
I never suggested Alistair was particularly mature or consistent in his behavior. Calling him a whiny complainer, however, says a little more about the player than the character. Players have historically called out that phrase regarding any character that questioned them at some point or acted in a way they didn't agree with. That's not going to change the way I think about writing characters, but I do appreciate the irony. 

[Yankee23]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Exactly.  Alistair never developed as a person.  Yet the way I see it, he SHOULD have. 

He is constantly projecting these feelings of "father figure" onto people, lead, me, like me, tell me what to do, etc.  He's emotionally well below his age in this regard, IMO, and throughout the game, it really never changes.

Look how he acts with Goldanna.  Here he finds he has a sister - who was kicked out of the castle after her mother died, unlike Alistair, who got to stay there.  Where did she go?  How did she survive?  How does she know he is who he claims?

Yet he walks into her house, expects to be welcomed with open arms, and is SHOCKED when he is not.  He can't see, can't understand, why she may resent him.

I mostly agree. And yea though Goldanna is hated, I sympathise with her and I pity Alistiar's naivety.

Hardening might change him a bit, but I'd argue that being willing to do threesomes / foursomes and being unfaithful to one's marriage has little to do with being emotionally and mentally mature (it might even be the reverse). 

But I can see him, with the right help, change a bit. Though of course one can wonder if he doesnt' become reliant on the one helping him. Depends on if he is taught to fish, as opposed to just fed, so to speak.

Well, as a male, I've never been concerned with whether Alistair would do a threesome/foursome, and I completely agree that this has nothing at all to do with emotional maturity.

You make a good analogy with the fishing comment - except as I see it, Alistair doesn't want to learn how to fish, he just wants someone to take him fishing so they can bond.

I don't think that is true. If he is hardened and made king, according to the epiloge he makes an effort to learn about governing and seems to do a pretty good job, he doesn't rely on Eamon or a chancellor in that situation, he can "learn to fish".

[tuppence95]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I meant that Zevran would also approve of the that mod as Morrigan and Ogren and the rest will.

Oh, and this poster ... you are the rude guy who tried to make Dahlia seem uncooperative for not changing her Alistair wedding mod so that you could have your own personal happy ending.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Skadi.

Yea well put. I edited that post because it wasn't fair to Alistair. Of course I believe that had he been in Zevran's position, he would have been eaten alive (if he is indeed innately the way you described). But yea, his childhood is definitely not a healthy basis. Could someone else in his position still have been different though? I think so and I guess that depends on what people are innately.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Reaverwind wrote...
The "proper" Wardens were prepared to abandon Fereldan to its fate. The almighty plothammer decided that wasn't an option for the PC.

Yep. You hit a very good point there. Gaider said as much about Duncan, and Riordan pretty much reinforces this in a conversation you can have with him. A "proper, hardcore" and purely pragmatic Warden, for all intents and purposes, would have completely turned their back on Ferelden and let it be consumed by the Blight since it was consuming itself with petty civil war.

And, depending on the character and origin you play, there is little value or need for saving ferelden. A dwarf, or elf, or mage, all origins that have legitimate reasons for not really caring much for ferelden and it's politics, and copuld be reasonably decide ferelden is more trouble than it's worth, time to rally the rest of your forces in countries with better sense not to wage civil war in the middle of catastrophic crisis, ect.

but plotwise, it just wasn't feasable. Thus, one must play a character that, for whatever reason, must save Ferelden from itself.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Only if somehow everyone who executes Loghain is playing Alistair as their PC. ..

Even if the Landsmeet had happened immediately following Ostagar, and the only "crime" of Loghain's that Alistair was aware of was the retreat (no slavery, no torture, no blaming the wardens, no anything, just the retreat), I think that Alistair would still overreact and still leave, based on Duncan's death alone.

edit: maybe i shouldn't have said immediately following ostagar, because the wound is still fresh at that point. more like if the year had passed and none of that other stuff had happened, Alistair would still call for Loghain's death.

You're speculating, though you could be right.  But even his demand for Loghain's execution after Ostagar is a response to what he sees as betrayal and regicide.  Just because you don't happen to agree with that assessment of Ostagar doesn't make it an invalid viewpoint.

As it is, at the LM, the Warden and Alistair both know the same about Loghain.  If he doesn't have any reason to call for his execution, then neither does the Warden.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:29 .

[metalcraze33]

tuppnece we are having fun discussing a character not whining If you don't like it you don't have to read or post if you don't want.

[ejoslin]

Yankee23 wrote...
I don't think that is true. If he is hardened and made king, according to the epiloge he makes an effort to learn about governing and seems to do a pretty good job, he doesn't rely on Eamon or a chancellor in that situation, he can "learn to fish".

Oh no, he does rely on his chancellor or Eamon.  Just not quite as much.  If the warden is his chancellor, then Eamon goes back to Redcliff.  If the warden is not, then Eamon stays on as chancellor.

It's only if hardened Alistair and Anora are married that a chancellor isn't really needed.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...

He did abandon his best friends son to die horribly

Explain to me, even if that were true and I disagree with how you phrased it, how that equals cowardice? If the point was abandoning the son of his best friend and the love of his life to die horribly instead of retreating to try and save Ferelden, that would make him a horrible person. Not are ll horrible people are cowards and not all cowards are horrible people.

You could interpret his leaving the battlefield as cowardice.

[metalcraze33]

What happens if you don't harden him and you are in a relationship and give anora the throne?

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...

He did abandon his best friends son to die horribly

Explain to me, even if that were true and I disagree with how you phrased it, how that equals cowardice? If the point was abandoning the son of his best friend and the love of his life to die horribly instead of retreating to try and save Ferelden, that would make him a horrible person. Not are ll horrible people are cowards and not all cowards are horrible people.

You could interpret his leaving the battlefield as cowardice.

Loghain is a lot of things.  But he is not a coward.  He didn't do what he did out of fear.  What his true reasons were are up to debate I suppose, but it was not an act of cowardice.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...
I don't think that is true. If he is hardened and made king, according to the epiloge he makes an effort to learn about governing and seems to do a pretty good job, he doesn't rely on Eamon or a chancellor in that situation, he can "learn to fish".

Oh no, he does rely on his chancellor or Eamon.  Just not quite as much.  If the warden is his chancellor, then Eamon goes back to Redcliff.  If the warden is not, then Eamon stays on as chancellor.

It's only if hardened Alistair and Anora are married that a chancellor isn't really needed.

It never says that he "relies" on them.  It does say that he defers to a Warden chancellor and is willing to let them be in charge when he's out of town.  That's completely normal, even healthy, king behavior.

[ejoslin]

metalcraze33 wrote...

What happens if you don't harden him and you are in a relationship and give anora the throne?

You stay together, of course.  Gray Warden Alistair is a good romance ending.  He doesn't want to be king in that instance.

[Yankee23]

ejoslin wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...
I don't think that is true. If he is hardened and made king, according to the epiloge he makes an effort to learn about governing and seems to do a pretty good job, he doesn't rely on Eamon or a chancellor in that situation, he can "learn to fish".

Oh no, he does rely on his chancellor or Eamon.  Just not quite as much.  If the warden is his chancellor, then Eamon goes back to Redcliff.  If the warden is not, then Eamon stays on as chancellor.

It's only if hardened Alistair and Anora are married that a chancellor isn't really needed.

But he makes the effort to learn, which doesn't happen if not hardened. So I don't think he can be written off as always needing someone to support him, he is capable of learning to do it on his own.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain is a lot of things.  But he is not a coward.  He didn't do what he did out of fear.  What his true reasons were are up to debate I suppose, but it was not an act of cowardice.

That is your assessment of his character, but it doesn't have to be everybody's.  Deserting a battlefield because the horde is too large can very well be construed as a cowardly thing to do.  Not saying I agree, especially as he is thinking of his men and not only himself.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[tuppence95]

metalcraze33 wrote...

tuppnece we are having fun discussing a character not whining If you don't like it you don't have to read or post if you don't want.

People like Mondo and that Lord guy are not "discussing," they are complaining/whining.  It doesn't look like either of them are here to carry on a discussion.  I'm sure you can see the difference.

[Lord_Anthonior]

tuppence95 wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I meant that Zevran would also approve of the that mod as Morrigan and Ogren and the rest will.

Oh, and this poster ... you are the rude guy who tried to make Dahlia seem uncooperative for not changing her Alistair wedding mod so that you could have your own personal happy ending.

lol, Actually I had my happy ending in the official Bioware's Witch Hunt DLC, and I never said that the mod was incomplete nor uncooperative if I did create some polemic well, that tends to happen with several perspectives but being rude? I have never said anything offensive nor rude to any person just thoughts or opinions to developed characters.:happy:

[TJPags]

tuppence95 wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...

Don't you just love the terrified look on his face before morrigan blows out the candle?

He has exactly the same expression on his face as the HNM who is in a romance with Morrigan.

TJPags wrote...

You make a good analogy with the fishing comment - except as I see it, Alistair doesn't want to learn how to fish, he just wants someone to take him fishing so they can bond.

This statement is most likely true in your playthrough, but that's not the only way his story can play out.  He can definitely learn to stand on his own and be assertive.  When judging any of the companions, it's a good idea to keep in mind that what you are seeing in your game is not the full picture.  Just based on my first playthrough, I could not stand Morrigan because all she did was complain through the entire game.  But keeping an open mind allowed me to go back and see a very different Morrigan.

Well, it is true in every one of my playthroughs, some more so than others.  I've made various choices, but he always seems the same way to me - needy, clingy, etc.

tuppence95 wrote...

All of the companions are flawed.  And some of their flaws can push our own personal buttons and upset us.  But damn, there sure is a lot of whining in this thread about how a game character is thought to be whining.  I don't like Rendon Howe in the game, but I'm not going to spend hours and hours complaining about him.  I don't like Loghain either, but the things I don't like about them are part of what makes this game so rich for me.  If every character did exactly what I wanted them to do, it would be a pretty boring game, and I doubt I'd still be playing it.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
David Gaider addressed that issue quite well, I think. But sadly, we live in a day and age where being an emotional individual is "whiny", especially if they are male.

David Gaider wrote...

darkshadow136 wrote...
Rofl thats was priceless. But in all seriousness though Alistar is very whiney and sure does cry a lot.

No, he doesn't. Some players are whiny, however, and sure do cry a lot whenever any character dares to express a thought contrary to their own or maybe, I don't know, expresses an emotion. I think this says more about their shallowness than Alistair's whininess.

David Gaider wrote...
I never suggested Alistair was particularly mature or consistent in his behavior. Calling him a whiny complainer, however, says a little more about the player than the character. Players have historically called out that phrase regarding any character that questioned them at some point or acted in a way they didn't agree with. That's not going to change the way I think about writing characters, but I do appreciate the irony. 

Let me address Gaider here.

For me, it's not that Alistair disagrees with me, or questions me.  Actually, he NEVER questions me, he just gives the old "Alistair disapproves -27" thing.  I'd PREFER he question me.

I'd PREFER if he argued AGAINST killing either Isolde or Connor.  I'd like it if he fought me if I defiled the ashes.  My problem is that he doesn't do this.  Instead, he actually suggests killing Isolde or Connor is the best idea, then attacks me for it.  He's respectful of those in the Chantry, seems to believe in their teachings, yet it's Wynne who attacks for defiling the ashes, or Leli.  They leave - he stays.

As Gaider says, Alistair is NOT mature, OR consistent, yet this is the male lead that we're apparently supposed to bond with, and make ruler of the country - an immature, inconsistent person.

Gaider is welcome to write whatever characters he likes, and is welcome to like them, or ascribe whatever he likes to them.  I find it highly disheartening though to read comments by Gaider where he puts down those of us who don't share his views.  I guess that makes me whiny.

[Merilsell]

Ah well...



*continues to munch amused her popcorn*

[metalcraze33]

I think you are the only one whining everyone else is debating

[tuppence95]

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I meant that Zevran would also approve of the that mod as Morrigan and Ogren and the rest will.

Oh, and this poster ... you are the rude guy who tried to make Dahlia seem uncooperative for not changing her Alistair wedding mod so that you could have your own personal happy ending.

lol, Actually I had my happy ending in the official Bioware's Witch Hunt DLC, and I never said that the mod was incomplete nor uncooperative if I did create some polemic well, that tends to happen with several perspectives but being rude? I have never said anything offensive nor rude to any person just thoughts or opinions to developed characters.:happy:

Have you gone back and read the reactions to your post to Dahlia?

[TJPags]

Merilsell wrote...

Ah well...

*continues to munch amused her popcorn*

Alistair doesn't like popcorn.  But he will yell at you if you don't give him some.

[metalcraze33]

maybe you can argue with him some other way it since none of us are involved?