804 réponses à ce sujet

[Merilsell]

Oh he doesn't have to like Popcorn. He can have cheese...and other things

ToP: Kittie-stair <3

Modifié par Merilsell, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Yankee23 wrote...
I don't think that is true. If he is hardened and made king, according to the epiloge he makes an effort to learn about governing and seems to do a pretty good job, he doesn't rely on Eamon or a chancellor in that situation, he can "learn to fish".

Oh no, he does rely on his chancellor or Eamon.  Just not quite as much.  If the warden is his chancellor, then Eamon goes back to Redcliff.  If the warden is not, then Eamon stays on as chancellor.

It's only if hardened Alistair and Anora are married that a chancellor isn't really needed.

It never says that he "relies" on them.  It does say that he defers to a Warden chancellor and is willing to let them be in charge when he's out of town.  That's completely normal, even healthy, king behavior.

This is an argument over semantics at this point.  He has a chancellor unless he and Anora are married.  If he and Anora are married, they don't need a chancellor.  Eamon goes home.  The warden is not needed.  

The cards:

Hardened Alistair + Anora:
As the new chancellor, the former Grey Warden <FirstName/> was seen often at court--at least for a time. With both the king and queen actively involved in running their kingdom, the need for an advisor diminished with time. <FirstName/> continued to enjoy great popularity in Ferelden, however, and maintained considerable influence in the running of the kingdom.

Unchanged Alistair + Anora:
As the chancellor, <FirstName/> was seen often at court, usually arguing with Queen Anora over matters of state. The former Grey Warden enjoyed King Alistair's full confidence, however, and thus great influence in running the kingdom--more than the queen would like, probably, but she had little choice.

Hardened Alistair Alone
<FirstName/>, as Alistair's chancellor, was a regular face at court--at least for a time. Alistair deferred to his advisor's judgment on most matters, and when the king traveled away from the capital, as he did often, he was more than willing to leave the throne entirely in <FirstName/>'s hands.

Unchanged Alistair Alone:
<FirstName/>, as Alistair's chancellor, was the face most often seen at court. In truth, the chancellor ruled the nation, and did so with King Alistair's blessing. Whenever the chancellor left Denerim on personal affairs, the business of the court effectively came to a standstill.

It looks to me like Alistair as sole ruler relies on the warden hardened or not as Alistair deferred most of the time to his chancellor.

[tuppence95]

TJPags wrote...
For me, it's not that Alistair disagrees with me, or questions me.  Actually, he NEVER questions me, he just gives the old "Alistair disapproves -27" thing.  I'd PREFER he question me.

I'd PREFER if he argued AGAINST killing either Isolde or Connor.  I'd like it if he fought me if I defiled the ashes.  My problem is that he doesn't do this.  Instead, he actually suggests killing Isolde or Connor is the best idea, then attacks me for it.  He's respectful of those in the Chantry, seems to believe in their teachings, yet it's Wynne who attacks for defiling the ashes, or Leli.  They leave - he stays.

As Gaider says, Alistair is NOT mature, OR consistent, yet this is the male lead that we're apparently supposed to bond with, and make ruler of the country - an immature, inconsistent person.

Gaider is welcome to write whatever characters he likes, and is welcome to like them, or ascribe whatever he likes to them.  I find it highly disheartening though to read comments by Gaider where he puts down those of us who don't share his views.  I guess that makes me whiny.

I know what you are saying about the thing with Connor.  That frustrated the hell out of me.  I'm just saying that they all have ways of pushing our buttons, but sometimes there are other ways of looking at their words and actions, other than immediately deciding you hate them ... and I'm talking about any of the characters here.  

Depending on how you treat them, they can all become something that you hate .. or admire.  That's what's so great about this game.  If you keep an open mind, there's a chance you can see an entirely different picture on a different playthrough.

*edited to add - I think Gaider is just putting down people who aren't willing to keep an open mind and see that there are different ways to view the picture.

Modifié par tuppence95, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:43 .

[metalcraze33]

I want to push him down and eat cheese in front of him while he cries

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Skadi.
Yea well put. I edited that post because it wasn't fair to Alistair. Of course I believe that had he been in Zevran's position, he would have been eaten alive (if he is indeed innately the way you described). But yea, his childhood is definitely not a healthy basis. Could someone else in his position still have been different though? I think so and I guess that depends on what people are innately.

Someone else, in his position, might do better or worse, depending on their nature. In real life, people react and develop a number of different ways when in the same situation. One person, as I mentioned, might grow up and still maintain and unhealthy loyalty and attachment to a perpetually abusive relative. Another person in the same situation might do the opposite, even turning on and attacking the abusive relative.

So yes, innate nature have alot to with how people develop in various situations. I think had Alistair been in Zevran's situation, he could have survived, but he would have become a very different person. I think he actually would have become pretty deranged and mental, psychotic or sadistic. the reason I think this is because Zevran has the innate ability to distance himself emotionall, and is not innately ruled by his emotions. Emotions will effect him like any other person, but not to his core. he is able to cut himself off from the potential danger and armor himself up without his basic person being adversely effected. hence, his rather pleasant, nonchalant approach to many things.

Alistair, on the other hand, is a person who is very strongly emotional, to the point his emotions can make or break him. he would probably not be able to emotionally shut himself off from the abuse, and as such, the negative experiences would adversely effect him to the core, in effect, turning him into a twisted, demented psycho running on the basest of emotion and instinct, becoming a shattered demi-monster, in effect.

On the flip side of the coin, i think had Alistair had a healthy, reasonable upbringing with adults who actually had conern for his wellbeing and future, would have had the opposite effect, bringing about a much more positive development in his character. Coupled with maturity to deal with life, as well as having been socialized as a normal person, he would have made an interesting philosopher, an actor, or something in the artistic fields, where he could channel his rather rosy and fantastic visions of reality into art and literature.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
You're speculating, though you could be right.  But even his demand for Loghain's execution after Ostagar is a response to what he sees as betrayal and regicide. 

 You're right, it is speculation. Based on what I perceive about Alistair's character, I think that if Duncan had survived Ostagar, Alistair would find his passions concerning regicide to be minimal.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Merilsell wrote...

Oh he doesn't have to like Popcorn. He can have cheese...and other things

Oh I'm having popcorn also because of sunday night football.

[metalcraze33]

having an urge to start a morrigan debate just to see how it goes

[Zjarcal]

tuppence95 wrote...
Depending on how you treat them, they can all become something that you hate .. or admire.  That's what's so great about this game.  If you keep an open mind, there's a chance you can see an entirely different picture on a different playthrough.

I actually like to see all sides of a character before deciding if I like them or not. Their crisis moments, the things they disapprove of, etc. It's the only way to truly get the whole picture of a character.

Sometimes you love a character but then they do something you never thought they would and then your opinion of them goes out the window. Or it could go the other way around.

[TJPags]

tuppence95 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
For me, it's not that Alistair disagrees with me, or questions me.  Actually, he NEVER questions me, he just gives the old "Alistair disapproves -27" thing.  I'd PREFER he question me.

I'd PREFER if he argued AGAINST killing either Isolde or Connor.  I'd like it if he fought me if I defiled the ashes.  My problem is that he doesn't do this.  Instead, he actually suggests killing Isolde or Connor is the best idea, then attacks me for it.  He's respectful of those in the Chantry, seems to believe in their teachings, yet it's Wynne who attacks for defiling the ashes, or Leli.  They leave - he stays.

As Gaider says, Alistair is NOT mature, OR consistent, yet this is the male lead that we're apparently supposed to bond with, and make ruler of the country - an immature, inconsistent person.

Gaider is welcome to write whatever characters he likes, and is welcome to like them, or ascribe whatever he likes to them.  I find it highly disheartening though to read comments by Gaider where he puts down those of us who don't share his views.  I guess that makes me whiny.

I know what you are saying about the thing with Connor.  That frustrated the hell out of me.  I'm just saying that they all have ways of pushing our buttons, but sometimes there are other ways of looking at their words and actions, other than immediately deciding you hate them ... and I'm talking about any of the characters here.  

Depending on how you treat them, they can all become something that you hate .. or admire.  That's what's so great about this game.  If you keep an open mind, there's a chance you can see an entirely different picture on a different playthrough.

What you say is very true.  But we have to remember, "liking" someone or "disliking" them is very subjective.

Me, I don't like people who act as Alistair does.  The Connor thing, the giving up of leadership, the way he is with Goldanna, and yes, the constant harping on Duncan, a man he knew 6 months or so.  It grates on me.

I gave him a chance in my first playthrough, and it just kept grating on me, again and again.  My second warden, a DE who didn't want to be conscripted, was really bothered by the constant "I wish Duncan were here" comments.  Since then, I can't converse with this child in a man's body.

It's similar to how I feel about Loghain.  I don't like the way Loghain leaves at Ostagar, refuses to explain himself, blames others, etc.  His capitualation at the end of the duel makes no sense to me.

I didn't like Sten at first.  He's become one of my favorite characters.  Zev has grown on me.  So really, it's basically a personality conflict with me and Ali, and I suspect it is for others, as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Coupled with maturity to deal with life, as well as having been socialized as a normal person, he would have made an interesting philosopher, an actor, or something in the artistic fields, where he could channel his rather rosy and fantastic visions of reality into art and literature.

A philosopher? I really don't see that
But a novel writer for sure. Something about arts and literature.

Too bad. Arcturus Cousland really wanted a good life for him, but eh, he crossed the line. 

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

tuppence95 wrote...
Depending on how you treat them, they can all become something that you hate .. or admire.  That's what's so great about this game.  If you keep an open mind, there's a chance you can see an entirely different picture on a different playthrough.

I actually like to see all sides of a character before deciding if I like them or not. Their crisis moments, the things they disapprove of, etc. It's the only way to truly get the whole picture of a character.

Sometimes you love a character but then they do something you never thought they would and then your opinion of them goes out the window. Or it could go the other way around.

FWIW, the absolute BEST time to get Alistair's hate speech is if you can get him to 100 hostile making him king.  OMG, I did that once, and there's one tiny little additional line -- the absolute meanest response in the game.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You're speculating, though you could be right.  But even his demand for Loghain's execution after Ostagar is a response to what he sees as betrayal and regicide. 

 You're right, it is speculation. Based on what I perceive about Alistair's character, I think that if Duncan had survived Ostagar, Alistair would find his passions concerning regicide to be minimal.

No, can't say I agree there.  He is most upset about Duncan (i.e. asking Flemeth why she didn't save him, later on saying he felt guilty that he didn't die with him etc.) but he is livid that, as he sees it, Loghain abandoned the Wardens and Cailan and is off to steal the throne.  When he talks about Eamon not letting him get away with it, I highly doubt that only Duncan is on his mind.  The fact that he has a personal stake heightens his feelings but isn't the entire basis.

[Standenanian]

This fool is clouded by his templar upbringing, and he dies way to easily in combat.

[tuppence95]

TJPags wrote...

What you say is very true.  But we have to remember, "liking" someone or "disliking" them is very subjective.

Me, I don't like people who act as Alistair does.  The Connor thing, the giving up of leadership, the way he is with Goldanna, and yes, the constant harping on Duncan, a man he knew 6 months or so.  It grates on me.

I gave him a chance in my first playthrough, and it just kept grating on me, again and again.  My second warden, a DE who didn't want to be conscripted, was really bothered by the constant "I wish Duncan were here" comments.  Since then, I can't converse with this child in a man's body.

It's similar to how I feel about Loghain.  I don't like the way Loghain leaves at Ostagar, refuses to explain himself, blames others, etc.  His capitualation at the end of the duel makes no sense to me.

I didn't like Sten at first.  He's become one of my favorite characters.  Zev has grown on me.  So really, it's basically a personality conflict with me and Ali, and I suspect it is for others, as well.

I feel the same about Loghain, especially that he blames others for his actions.  I've said before that Jowan has more honor than Loghain does, because he takes responsibility for what he did.  But don't you think Loghain makes the game so much more interesting?

And I can see most of what you say about Alistair, but you can't really blame him for not taking the lead.  For me, that's a game mechanics issue.  He can't take the lead.  The player has to do that.

*edited out some of the quotes because this post was way too long.  

Modifié par tuppence95, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:53 .

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

FWIW, the absolute BEST time to get Alistair's hate speech is if you can get him to 100 hostile making him king.  OMG, I did that once, and there's one tiny little additional line -- the absolute meanest response in the game.

The one about the King of Ferelden? I think I saw it once (on youtube), something about how sad it was that the future King was acting this way.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to prevent my CE from getting to -100 before the Landsmeet. She's already at -43 and I haven't even started the treaty quests. But I guess it's worth a try.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

[/i]It looks to me like Alistair as sole ruler relies on the warden hardened or not as Alistair deferred most of the time to his chancellor.

That's something he chooses to do, however, so whether he would or would not need a chancellor is a matter of opinion.  But I agree that it's in Alistair's character to have a partner, just as it's in Anora's to be independent.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[Skyl4rk]

metalcraze33 wrote...



having an urge to start a morrigan debate just to see how it goes

Why? Has the whole Alistair "hate" discussion become too intellectual for your liking? Or are there too many punctuations to process?

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

FWIW, the absolute BEST time to get Alistair's hate speech is if you can get him to 100 hostile making him king.  OMG, I did that once, and there's one tiny little additional line -- the absolute meanest response in the game.

The one about the King of Ferelden? I think I saw it once (on youtube), something about how sad it was that the future King was acting this way.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to prevent my CE from getting to -100 before the Landsmeet. She's already at -43 and I haven't even started the treaty quests. But I guess it's worth a try.

It's a little worse than that.

Alistair: I guess I'll have to be satisfied with you actually helping to stop the Blight, won't I? If that's still your intention. I can't do it on my own. (mollified a little, still angry)
Warden: So says the king of Ferelden. Sad, really.

I have to admit, that line is so cutting, I laughed when I saw it.  It's truly awful.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


A philosopher? I really don't see that
But a novel writer for sure. Something about arts and literature.

Too bad. Arcturus Cousland really wanted a good life for him, but eh, he crossed the line. 

A philosopher I could see. granted, he'd be no Socrates, Fakih, or Goethe, and definitely no where near Nietszche's ballpark. But I could see him as an unusual, eccentric philsopher who comes up with some pretty weird ideas and theories, if nothing else, than to stir the pot and make waves for amusement sake. Alistair does seem to get a rise out of attempts to provoke people, though it seldom goes in his favor in his current state. he does seem to have an innate love of trying to push peoples buttons. His attempts to bait Morrigan, his recollections of screaming like a lunatic just to get a reaction out of the Chantry staff, ect, all these make me believe that part of his innate person is mischievious and playful. Given his upbringing, this trait manifested itself, more often than not, in inappropriate situations.

[TJPags]

tuppence95 wrote...

I feel the same about Loghain, especially that he blames others for his actions.  I've said before that Jowan has more honor than Loghain does, because he takes responsibility for what he did.  But don't you think Loghain makes the game so much more interesting?

And I can see most of what you say about Alistair, but you can't really blame him for not taking the lead.  For me, that's a game mechanics issue.  He can't take the lead.  The player has to do that.

*edited out some of the quotes because this post was way too long.  

Yes, the leading thing is certainly game mechanics.  Yet that kind of starts things off badly, IMO.  Game mechanics says that the more experienced warden should take a back seat to me - yet I should make HIM king?

Bothers me - definitely bothers me.  Especiallly my Couslands.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

[/i]It looks to me like Alistair as sole ruler relies on the warden hardened or not as Alistair deferred most of the time to his chancellor.

That's something he chooses to do, however, so whether he would or would not need a chancellor is a matter of opinion.  But I agree that it's in Alistair's character to have a partner, just as it's in Anora's to be independent.

Whether he chooses to rely on his chancellor I didn't think was up to debate, only that he does rely on him/her.

Edit: Of course, if the warden chooses not to be chancellor, Alistair chooses to rely on Eamon if solo king.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:59 .

[metalcraze33]

Skyl4rk wrote...

metalcraze33 wrote...

having an urge to start a morrigan debate just to see how it goes

Why? Has the whole Alistair "hate" discussion become too intellectual for your liking? Or are there too many punctuations to process?

Wow that is kind of a mean thing to say we have been debating this for a while
Why are you being so immature?

[Axekix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


A philosopher? I really don't see that
But a novel writer for sure. Something about arts and literature.

Too bad. Arcturus Cousland really wanted a good life for him, but eh, he crossed the line. 

A philosopher I could see. granted, he'd be no Socrates, Fakih, or Goethe, and definitely no where near Nietszche's ballpark. But I could see him as an unusual, eccentric philsopher who comes up with some pretty weird ideas and theories, if nothing else, than to stir the pot and make waves for amusement sake. Alistair does seem to get a rise out of attempts to provoke people, though it seldom goes in his favor in his current state. he does seem to have an innate love of trying to push peoples buttons. His attempts to bait Morrigan, his recollections of screaming like a lunatic just to get a reaction out of the Chantry staff, ect, all these make me believe that part of his innate person is mischievious and playful. Given his upbringing, this trait manifested itself, more often than not, in inappropriate situations.

He'd make a good court jester imo.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Axekix wrote...

He'd make a good court jester imo.

That's another possibility. especially in his holy incarnation as Moobistair.