804 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I don't see it like that. There is not one moment where Alistair will even consider that they really don't know what happened at Ostagar. Loghain is never anything but completely guilty in his mind and he will never so much as consider an argument to the contrary. His anger has nothing to do with the truth, only with his feelings.

Because as he sees it, there's nothing else to know.  Cailan and the Wardens died and Loghain walks away completely unscathed, didn't even join the battle.  From his perspective, there's no excuse for it.  Didn't engage the enemy and have to fall back, didn't barely pull through, he never clashed swords with a single darkspawn.

Then he's being narrow minded, and self centered, and he's jumping to conclusions. The Warden and Alistair walked away from the battle too. Does he think there's no excuse for that, too? Maybe he does think that, but is that rational or is that emotional? Would he ever consider that their lighting the beacon late (late by his own calculations) could have contributed to the loss at Ostagar? He thinks there's nothing else to know because he doesn't care about anything else. Like I said, for him, it has nothing to do with the truth.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Then he's being narrow minded, and self centered, and he's jumping to conclusions. The Warden and Alistair walked away from the battle too. Does he think there's no excuse for that, too? Maybe he does think that, but is that rational or is that emotional? Would he ever consider that their lighting the beacon late (late by his own calculations) could have contributed to the loss at Ostagar? He thinks there's nothing else to know because he doesn't care about anything else. Like I said, for him, it has nothing to do with the truth.

Actually in RtO, at least, he says "I dare say some people would say that about us" (i.e. that you deserted).  But even so, you barely got out with your lives.  Loghain had all his army intact without a scratch.  His suspicions are all vindicated after the fact by Loghain trying to kill you and taking the regency.

Do you think that Loghain blaming the Wardens is an irrational and immature response?  Or just the one he leaps to because he has limited information?

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

I myself am also irked that he doesn't have any sence of self awareness.  I think he must actually be the youngest companion.  Often people with issues don't start to understand how others view them, or start to deal with their issues, untill they've been confronted with the real world for awhile.  Alistair has never been independant.  He always had someone looking after him and calling the shots, and shaping who he is.  But it sure would be nice if he'd take a little initiative in that department.  One of my favorite moments in the game is Zevran putting him in his place in reguards to the subject of religion.  It was about damn time someone point out some of his hypocracy.

Someone pointed out to me earlier in the thread that my reason for saying he's self centered was ilogical, and they were right... I aprouched the subject wrong.  Alistair is self centered in that he wants others to care about what he's fealing and his loss, but he won't even REMEMBER what a human Noble Warden told him about her family being massacred pretty much right in front of her.  (or him.  You know what I mean)  And he ridicules Morrigan and Zevran imediately, and starts pestering them once they join the party.  What a douchebag!  Morrigan brings us the documents we needed, and Flemeth saves our lives, and he never shows any gratitude for that.  Are they untrustworthy?  Of course.  As are most sentiant beings.  That whole pesky matter of not having control over what is not yours, the will of others.  And Zevran... he told us he was a slave, and you didn't want to kill him ether Alistair.  No need to rub salt in his wounds after we win against him, just to prove how macho you think you are. 

Zevran's patience with companions by contrast is one of the reasons I like him.  He's rarely malitious, just pokes and prods to try to learn more about them, or to deflect when they are imposing uppon him.  Such grace through dirty words.  lol  I love that him and Al even eventually have some friendly banter eventually, if you get the mod that fixes the bugs in dialogue.  I'm pretty sure it's ejoslin's mod.

You know, it's fine that people don't like a character, but it irks me when people put that in the context of "but that NPC over there is so great".  All of the characters were written to have strengths and weaknesses.  These two characters in particular were both written by David Gaider.  I'm not going to go into the ways that Zevran is a limited character, how his interactions can rub certain PCs the wrong way and come off as crass and insensitive, but they're there.  It's partly a function of game limitation and partly because each NPC has their own set of negatives and positives.  Obviously Alistair rubs you the wrong way.  But hopefully you realize that you have a pretty extreme negative view of him and not everyone views the character the same way.

Actually, I don't hate Alistair, I like him half the time.  And I've defended the quality of the character repeatedly.  I've said before and will say again that dislike of certain aspects of a character does not make the character a bad character, nor poorly written.  I don't see why it is a problem to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of characters, likes and dislikes towards the characters, or how the characters compare against eachother.  I never said that everyone views him as I do, nor that everyone has the same preferances, I merely expressed my view of him, and why I think he is as he is, etc. 

To be honest, I find it a bit offensive when people project that quality of hypocracy onto me.  You bring up David Gaider as though my not fangirling Alistair is somehow an afront to the writer when I've praised his writing of both characters numerouse times on this thread and others.  I find the flaws of Alistair interesting and have been discussing them and his reasons throughout this thread.  If I thought l was limited or poorly written, I wouldn't have much to talk about here, other than to express it in those exact words.

I also never said Alistair was a limited character, nor that Zevran is perfect.  I braught up Zevran because I found Alistair's initial reaction to him disguesting, just as I talked about how I found his initial reactions to Morrigan disguesting, and they do have some interesting contrast between the two.  (I also hated Xander and loved Spike.  Go figure, right?) If you don't want to debate or discuss various points about the characters, that's fine, but do not seek to devalidate my views without a valid argument just because you don't like my views.

[Sarah1281]

What's wrong with Alistair's initial reaction to Zevran? I love him but he DID just attempt to kill you and Alistiar so why should he be nice to their would-be assassin?

[EccentricSage]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What's wrong with Alistair's initial reaction to Zevran? I love him but he DID just attempt to kill you and Alistiar so why should he be nice to their would-be assassin?

I have no problem with him not wanting to bring Zevran, with being cautious, or with being stand-off-ish... Rather, it's the banter imediately afterwords where he's heckling Zevran about how he's obviously not a good Assassin.  It's like, jeez Alistair, you're making ME want to murder knife you right now... one can only imagine what a bad idea it is to intentionaly provoke an assassin who just might decide to try to finish the job instead of being a new comrade.  It might seem a small thing to some, but I can not stand that trait.  He's the one who started the bickering with Morrigan, too.  What does he think he'll gain?  It's possibly the one thing I find most grating about his personality.  Bicker bicker bicker. 

I seriously think I'd be more endeared to him by his humor and kind heart if he didn't bicker so much and was not so judgemental of others.  I wish we knew his age for sure. IMO it's a bit more forgivable the younger a person is.  Young people are imature enough not to know better.  But in a grown man it's a disguesting and childish trait that they should know from age and experience acomplishes nothing but causing greif for everyone involved.

[metalcraze33]

I have heard He is around 20 but I may be wrong

[Esbatty]

EccentricSage wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What's wrong with Alistair's initial reaction to Zevran? I love him but he DID just attempt to kill you and Alistiar so why should he be nice to their would-be assassin?

I have no problem with him not wanting to bring Zevran, with being cautious, or with being stand-off-ish... Rather, it's the banter imediately afterwords where he's heckling Zevran about how he's obviously not a good Assassin.  It's like, jeez Alistair, you're making ME want to murder knife you right now... one can only imagine what a bad idea it is to intentionaly provoke an assassin who just might decide to try to finish the job instead of being a new comrade.  It might seem a small thing to some, but I can not stand that trait.  He's the one who started the bickering with Morrigan, too.  What does he think he'll gain?  It's possibly the one thing I find most grating about his personality.  Bicker bicker bicker. 

I seriously think I'd be more endeared to him by his humor and kind heart if he didn't bicker so much and was not so judgemental of others.  I wish we knew his age for sure. IMO it's a bit more forgivable the younger a person is.  Young people are imature enough not to know better.  But in a grown man it's a disguesting and childish trait that they should know from age and experience acomplishes nothing but causing greif for everyone involved.

Actually wasn't it Morrigan's navel gazing commentary and the "Now we have a Dog and Alistair is still the stupidest" line tha start off the bickering? Wait wait... no no it goes before even the travelling to Lothering the whole "not wanting Morrigan with them" "accusing them of being apostates" AND BEFORE the joining its his "She looks Chasind" "Swooping is Bad" "Sneaky Witch-Thief" comments that gains her ire.

So yeah he is an instigator, but I see it as more a defense mechanism since he can't actively chase them off since they make him uncomfortable he might as well make them uncomfortable too.

[Merilsell]

Gaider once said that Alistair is 19 almost 20 at the start of origin. Makes him 21 at the end of it. Young indeed, as the PC Warden is as well. Actually me thinks that the two Warden's are the youngest in the group overall.

[LadyDamodred]

Meri: I recall seeing that someone said Gaider said Alistair was 21 at the start of origins. Out of curiosity, where did you see that one?

[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...
To be honest, I find it a bit offensive when people project that quality of hypocracy onto me.  You bring up David Gaider as though my not fangirling Alistair is somehow an afront to the writer when I've praised his writing of both characters numerouse times on this thread and others.  I find the flaws of Alistair interesting and have been discussing them and his reasons throughout this thread.  If I thought l was limited or poorly written, I wouldn't have much to talk about here, other than to express it in those exact words.

I also never said Alistair was a limited character, nor that Zevran is perfect.  I braught up Zevran because I found Alistair's initial reaction to him disguesting, just as I talked about how I found his initial reactions to Morrigan disguesting, and they do have some interesting contrast between the two.  (I also hated Xander and loved Spike.  Go figure, right?) If you don't want to debate or discuss various points about the characters, that's fine, but do not seek to devalidate my views without a valid argument just because you don't like my views.

LOL  I don't care that you don't "fangirl" him.  However, you use pretty extreme terminology like "disgusting" and "childish", and paint the contrasts in extremes as well.

Eh, whatever.  I don't usually post in hate threads and have certainly posted too much in this one.

[EccentricSage]

Esbatty wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What's wrong with Alistair's initial reaction to Zevran? I love him but he DID just attempt to kill you and Alistiar so why should he be nice to their would-be assassin?

I have no problem with him not wanting to bring Zevran, with being cautious, or with being stand-off-ish... Rather, it's the banter imediately afterwords where he's heckling Zevran about how he's obviously not a good Assassin.  It's like, jeez Alistair, you're making ME want to murder knife you right now... one can only imagine what a bad idea it is to intentionaly provoke an assassin who just might decide to try to finish the job instead of being a new comrade.  It might seem a small thing to some, but I can not stand that trait.  He's the one who started the bickering with Morrigan, too.  What does he think he'll gain?  It's possibly the one thing I find most grating about his personality.  Bicker bicker bicker. 

I seriously think I'd be more endeared to him by his humor and kind heart if he didn't bicker so much and was not so judgemental of others.  I wish we knew his age for sure. IMO it's a bit more forgivable the younger a person is.  Young people are imature enough not to know better.  But in a grown man it's a disguesting and childish trait that they should know from age and experience acomplishes nothing but causing greif for everyone involved.

Actually wasn't it Morrigan's navel gazing commentary and the "Now we have a Dog and Alistair is still the stupidest" line tha start off the bickering? Wait wait... no no it goes before even the travelling to Lothering the whole "not wanting Morrigan with them" "accusing them of being apostates" AND BEFORE the joining its his "She looks Chasind" "Swooping is Bad" "Sneaky Witch-Thief" comments that gains her ire.

So yeah he is an instigator, but I see it as more a defense mechanism since he can't actively chase them off since they make him uncomfortable he might as well make them uncomfortable too.

That he is uncomfortable is on him, though.  When he started making Morrigan uncomfortable, before she even joined up, and very intentionaly on his part, it made my first two Wardens uncomfortable two... both were elves, and one was a mage.  But from most perspectives it was stupid to blurt out such things... we're lucky her and her mother have some stake in the situation, or perhaps we would never have found those documents.

Zevran just teases and deflects in ways that might be uncomfortable if taken too seriously, but are not insulting, at least, unless he gets jealous over a romanced Warden.  lol  I don't really see what Alistair thinks he's prooving by being rude and brash.  He could, for all he knows, be getting us into trouble by pissing off the wrong people.  Luckily there is no game mechanic for that.  But from a roleplay perspective, some of his initial reactions to people are strangle-worthy.

His defense mechanism really just shows weakness and stupidity, which Morrigan caught onto imediately, and started picking at.  I wish it had been possible to confront him about his attitude.  The closest we get is the eventual gossip conversation where he's acting like a kid and still knows nothing about the other companions, most of whom I'd gotten to know better by then.  So then I just end up with him voicing his disaproval of my friendships, basically.  lol  At least it wasn't Wynnesque dissaproval.  But still, I could only walk away from it with a lower sense respect for him.  But I got a touch of respect back for him, with ejoslin's mod.  There's some friendly missing banters down the line that show him and Zevran getting along, which was great.  I mean, have all the reservations in the world when an assassin first joins the ranks, by all meens.  But once you've been fighting alongside someone who's been pretty friendly and who your fellow warden knows well and aproves of, it might be time to lighten up a bit.

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...
To be honest, I find it a bit offensive when people project that quality of hypocracy onto me.  You bring up David Gaider as though my not fangirling Alistair is somehow an afront to the writer when I've praised his writing of both characters numerouse times on this thread and others.  I find the flaws of Alistair interesting and have been discussing them and his reasons throughout this thread.  If I thought l was limited or poorly written, I wouldn't have much to talk about here, other than to express it in those exact words.

I also never said Alistair was a limited character, nor that Zevran is perfect.  I braught up Zevran because I found Alistair's initial reaction to him disguesting, just as I talked about how I found his initial reactions to Morrigan disguesting, and they do have some interesting contrast between the two.  (I also hated Xander and loved Spike.  Go figure, right?) If you don't want to debate or discuss various points about the characters, that's fine, but do not seek to devalidate my views without a valid argument just because you don't like my views.

LOL  I don't care that you don't "fangirl" him.  However, you use pretty extreme terminology like "disgusting" and "childish", and paint the contrasts in extremes as well.

Eh, whatever.  I don't usually post in hate threads and have certainly posted too much in this one.

I understand.  There's a difference between calling a character disguesting and calling a very specific thing they do or say disguesting.  If someone were to call Zevran disguesting, I'd defend him, too.  But if they are just saying they find his good humor towards murder knifings disguesting, reguardless of his background, yeah, I can see that.

It's the intense reactions to the characters that make them so compelling.  I might find a lot of things About Alistair anoying or even disguesting at moments, but I wouldn't change him.  The contrasts between characters in this game are extream.  I think that's part of what makes everyone's experiences in the game so unique.  Personally, I find passionate discourse entertaining, but it's nothing personal.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Then he's being narrow minded, and self centered, and he's jumping to conclusions. The Warden and Alistair walked away from the battle too. Does he think there's no excuse for that, too? Maybe he does think that, but is that rational or is that emotional? Would he ever consider that their lighting the beacon late (late by his own calculations) could have contributed to the loss at Ostagar? He thinks there's nothing else to know because he doesn't care about anything else. Like I said, for him, it has nothing to do with the truth.

Actually in RtO, at least, he says "I dare say some people would say that about us" (i.e. that you deserted).  But even so, you barely got out with your lives.  Loghain had all his army intact without a scratch. 

 Just because Loghain got away without a scratch doesn't mean that he couldn't have had a good reason for not engaging.

 

His suspicions are all vindicated after the fact by Loghain trying to kill you and taking the regency.

I dont' think that Loghain's trying to kill me proves that he also wanted to kill Cailan. I don't think that his taking the regency proves that he wanted to steal the crown from Cailan, either. Yes, they are possibilities, but they are not proof.

Do you think that Loghain blaming the Wardens is an irrational and immature response?  Or just the one he leaps to because he has limited information?

No, I think it's a calculated move to somewhat deflect the accusations he expects. I think that while he doesn't trust the Wardens, and he does believe that they are partially responsible for Cailan's being on the front line, he knows that they are not to blame to the extent that he tells everyone they are. I don't think his mistrust of the Wardens or his blaming them is irrational. His blaming them might be 'bad' for other reasons, but I don't think it's irrational.

[CalJones]

What the hell happened to this thread overnight?!!

[Merilsell]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Meri: I recall seeing that someone said Gaider said Alistair was 21 at the start of origins. Out of curiosity, where did you see that one?

Err, never mind then. Guess I mixed it up with the age of the Warden It's been a while since I have read that post after all. :innocent:

[ejoslin]

Oh dear, inc ZevranSquee!

metalcraze33 wrote...

Well Zevran is my favorite but if some people don't like him i don't care, unless it's for a stupid reason like his sexuality.

This is one of the biggest criticisms about him -- not so much his bisexuality (though there is that), but the way he completely unashamed.  And people do take his flirting seriously (I'm not sure why, but I've quit arguing on the forums about it).

TJPags wrote...

Does Zevran have flaws?  Absolutely he does.  He hits on my PC's virtually first conversation every time, and I never do anything to show any interest in him.  Bothered me at first, probably annoys a lot of people.  But the fact that he has flaws in certain areas doesn't change that, in discussing childhood and it's affects on later personality, he sure seems to have had it worse than Alistair, but sure seems much more self-assured.

You know, Alistair has a lot of flirting and romance starters as well with the warden, though it happens a bit later (at 26+).  I think this is just the way males flirt in the game.  In both cases, it's easy to stop it cold.  As an aside, doesn't Morrigan actually invite the warden to bed very early?  Much earlier than Zevran does?  I don't find any of this a bad thing.  I think you have the combination of the way males flirt in the game with a bisexual character that makes people uncomfortable.

tuppence95 wrote...

I agree that Zevran had a much tougher life than Alistair did.  But he was hardened very early, probably in childhood.  Alistair's self-confidence was, I believe, deliberately knocked out of him through his youth, so that he would never be a threat to the throne.  No hardening, no self-esteem, kept in an extremely sheltered environment.  There's no way he'd be able to deal with things as efficiently as Zevran can.

Zevran actually is not as hardened as you'd think.  You can poke and prod him a bit to get him to admit this -- he considers it a shortcoming.  Which actually is an indication of his incredible strength -- in a life that should have either killed him or hardened him completely, he still has compassion, even for some of his victims.

Ummmm...  I'll let people get back to their Alistair hate 

[Sarah1281]

Zevran just teases and deflects in ways that might be uncomfortable if taken too seriously, but are not insulting, at least, unless he gets jealous over a romanced Warden. lol I don't really see what Alistair thinks he's prooving by being rude and brash. He could, for all he knows, be getting us into trouble by pissing off the wrong people. Luckily there is no game mechanic for that. But from a roleplay perspective, some of his initial reactions to people are strangle-worthy.

Alistair might be getting into trouble with the wrong people? I'm not sure how to take that besides 'the Crows might be watching and not happy that Alistair is being mildly rude' or 'Zevran might turn on them and try to kill them again because Alistair is being mildly rude.' And, again, Zevran just tried to KILL you. Why is it so horrible if Alistair says something vaguely rude about his assassination skills? They just met and Zevran, again, tried to kill you. Alistair's not happy an assassin is coming along and says something not exactly nice. Why is this out of line or particularly stupid? If you think he's risking Zevran trying to kill everyone again over a few rude comments (and I'm not saying that he would but you mentioned he was taking a risk by not being polite) then it's better to know now just how little that 'I'm going to work with you now' is worth and an ally that has to be coddled so much or else he'll try to kill you really wouldn't be worth that much.

[Giggles_Manically]

Wow the hate is strong with this thread.

I said my piece, but I will leave with this.

There are things Alistair does that annoy me, and things that I like. Some of my wardens love him, some used him, and others were his friend. While I do enjoy how he is written and think that he does have a lot of complexity he is not the charachter I like the most.

That would be a tie between Shale, Sten, Leliana, and Zevran really.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:50 .

[tuppence95]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Zevran just teases and deflects in ways that might be uncomfortable if taken too seriously, but are not insulting, at least, unless he gets jealous over a romanced Warden. lol I don't really see what Alistair thinks he's prooving by being rude and brash. He could, for all he knows, be getting us into trouble by pissing off the wrong people. Luckily there is no game mechanic for that. But from a roleplay perspective, some of his initial reactions to people are strangle-worthy.

Alistair might be getting into trouble with the wrong people? I'm not sure how to take that besides 'the Crows might be watching and not happy that Alistair is being mildly rude' or 'Zevran might turn on them and try to kill them again because Alistair is being mildly rude.' And, again, Zevran just tried to KILL you. Why is it so horrible if Alistair says something vaguely rude about his assassination skills? They just met and Zevran, again, tried to kill you. Alistair's not happy an assassin is coming along and says something not exactly nice. Why is this out of line or particularly stupid? If you think he's risking Zevran trying to kill everyone again over a few rude comments (and I'm not saying that he would but you mentioned he was taking a risk by not being polite) then it's better to know now just how little that 'I'm going to work with you now' is worth and an ally that has to be coddled so much or else he'll try to kill you really wouldn't be worth that much.

It looked like EccentricSage was talking about how Alistair was a little rude to Morrigan and Flemeth when they first met, because they could have been dangerous and provoking them might not have been smart.

The first time I played, I was a little surprised at Alistair's sharp responses to Morrigan in their initial meeting.  But as soon as I figured out that she was an apostate, it made sense.  She and Flemeth represent what Alistair has been taught is wrong and not to be trusted.  And most of the slightly rude things he says about her are said tongue-in-cheek and are kinda funny.  Morrigan's insults to Alistair, however, were very personal and I thought in bad taste.  She immediately starts making fun of him for mourning Duncan.  That started as soon as our pc woke up.  And then she started complaining and making fun of my pc about every move she made.  I initially found Morrigan so distasteful that in my first few playthroughs, I just left her in camp and managed to survive without a mage until I collected Wynne.  I am glad that I finally took the time to get to know Morrigan and find out more about her story, because there's much more to her than the shrew I initially thought she was.

[Kornichon]

HO MAKER'S KNICKERS.

this thread is just goin' so awesome :lol:

[tuppence95]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wow the hate is strong with this thread.

I said my piece, but I will leave with this.

There are things Alistair does that annoy me, and things that I like. Some of my wardens love him, some used him, and others were his friend. While I do enjoy how he is written and think that he does have a lot of complexity he is not the charachter I like the most.

That would be a tie between Shale, Sten, Leliana, and Zevran really.

Giggles!  You missed all the fun in this thread last night!  The new moobistar made a debut!  I was posting "Where's Giggles?"

*edit - page 23

Modifié par tuppence95, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:53 .

[Giggles_Manically]

tuppence95 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wow the hate is strong with this thread.

I said my piece, but I will leave with this.

There are things Alistair does that annoy me, and things that I like. Some of my wardens love him, some used him, and others were his friend. While I do enjoy how he is written and think that he does have a lot of complexity he is not the charachter I like the most.

That would be a tie between Shale, Sten, Leliana, and Zevran really.

Giggles!  You missed all the fun in this thread last night!  The new moobistar made a debut!  I was posting "Where's Giggles?"

*edit - page 23

I was busy last night.
Finished my DN run, got made a paragon but ran off with Leliana, Zevran and Dog.
Got a few more parts done on my City Elf.

Then went to sleep.

Also the internet was off at my house so no dice.

[tuppence95]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I was busy last night.
Finished my DN run, got made a paragon but ran off with Leliana, Zevran and Dog.
Got a few more parts done on my City Elf.

Then went to sleep.

Also the internet was off at my house so no dice.

Well, then you must go to page 23 right now and gaze upon the magnificence that is Moobistar II.  

[nos_astra]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Meri: I recall seeing that someone said Gaider said Alistair was 21 at the start of origins. Out of curiosity, where did you see that one?

No, it's just 'he's supposed to be 21 in Origins'. Could be at Ostagar or at the Landsmeet, it's unclear.

And Gaider never said it publicly.

[Collider]

And how old is the warden?