1080 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

crimzontearz wrote...

ouch that one was venomous

I think I've reached Merrin's state of total apathy towards DA2.

[Faz432]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


We won't get a toolset, because that way people would mod around this ridiculous design decision and I'm sure that would hurt the DLC milk run potential on outfits.

Nail on head.

[Collider]

crimzontearz wrote...

Collider wrote...

I play Bioware RPGs for the story and the story decisions. Putting a chantry robe on Morrigan, of all people, had nothing to do with the story but had to do with stats. I had to sacrifice Morrigan's unique appearance for gameplay stats, which is something I should never have to do.

Morrigan maintaining her "Witch of the Wilds" look, on the other hand, does have to do with story and does fit her.

so

story dictates that Isabela is a total moron who runs into a melee battle against a group of Qunari warriors with  a shirt, thigh high boots and a thong and nothing else  to protect her body from incoming attacks/arrows/whatever

sure

I TOTALLY buy that

In Dragon Age: Origins, I could play the game with the entire party being naked. So yea, going to the landsmeet in the buff yet everyone treats the party the same.

[crimzontearz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ouch that one was venomous

I think I've reached Merrin's state of total apathy towards DA2.

eh I guess I am more passive and willing to adapt, possibly because I always focus most of my attention to my main character ( am narcisistic I guess)

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I think I've reached Merrin's state of total apathy towards DA2.

I mean this with total sincerity. Then why do you still post? Heck, come back and give us your impressions of the game after it comes out if you do end up playing it, but why subject yourself to perpetual disappointment then share it with everyone else?

I view SW:TOR with near total apathy, though some amount of resignation that I will probably try it, but I wouldn't for the life of me post there and become some kind of "WHY ISNT THIS MORE LIKE SWG" broken record. Because that's basically what all my posts would be like if I was making them.

Collider wrote...

In Dragon Age: Origins, I could play the game with the entire party being naked. So yea, going to the landsmeet in the buff yet everyone treats the party the same.

To their credit they do raise an objection if you suggest your Dog fight Loghain.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[mellifera]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ouch that one was venomous

I think I've reached Merrin's state of total apathy towards DA2.

You sure seem to care a whole lot for someone who is apathetic...

[crimzontearz]

Collider wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Collider wrote...

I play Bioware RPGs for the story and the story decisions. Putting a chantry robe on Morrigan, of all people, had nothing to do with the story but had to do with stats. I had to sacrifice Morrigan's unique appearance for gameplay stats, which is something I should never have to do.

Morrigan maintaining her "Witch of the Wilds" look, on the other hand, does have to do with story and does fit her.

so

story dictates that Isabela is a total moron who runs into a melee battle against a group of Qunari warriors with  a shirt, thigh high boots and a thong and nothing else  to protect her body from incoming attacks/arrows/whatever

sure

I TOTALLY buy that

In Dragon Age: Origins, I could play the game with the entire party being naked. So yea, going to the landsmeet in the buff yet everyone treats the party the same.

you CAN for giggles...you do not HAVE to

here, in DA2 we HAVE to deal with ridiculously battle-useless outfits

[David Gaider]

crimzontearz wrote...
so uhm.....David....just out of curiosity here, why not give people the choice?

I mean, why not handle followers like morrigan in DAO? one set of "individually relevant" outfit and then the choice to equip other things to satisfy both sides of the field

I'm not the person to speak on this, but my understanding is that there are advantages-- both from the characterization point of view (meaning characters looking how they are supposed to look rather than having one-size-fits all bodies for the followers and mostly generic outfits-- when you see someone like Isabela, we'd like it to look like Isabela and not generic-rogue-armor with an Isabela head) as well as from an animation point of view. We're not talking about one static look, either, but I suppose for some the fact that you can't simply put any armor on your followers makes the difference semantic.

Regardless, you can still customize your PC however you like-- and there are options to outfit your followers with weapons and equipment, as well as mods.  To us, at least for DA2, that's enough.

[Addai]

Collider wrote...

I play Bioware RPGs for the story and the story decisions. Putting a chantry robe on Morrigan, of all people, had nothing to do with the story but had to do with stats. I had to sacrifice Morrigan's unique appearance for gameplay stats, which is something I should never have to do.

Morrigan maintaining her "Witch of the Wilds" look, on the other hand, does have to do with story and does fit her.

Wow, funny.  I never put Morrigan in a Chantry robe, ever. I did occasionally put her in the Archon robe or something similar.  I also modded her default setup to have sleeves.  But because you're a power gamer and just couldn't resist, that means choice in RPGs is a bad thing?

And who says NPC customization isn't story based?  When I get Sten in Lothering and start outfitting him with armor, that is both me as the player getting to play "dress up" and it's also story based.  Except I get to choose how the story goes.  Which is what an RPG is supposed to offer.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

David Gaider wrote...
Regardless, this isn't a vote. The podcast was just meant to answer the question (which has come up) in as complete a way as possible, outlining the positives and negatives. If some choose to only look at the negatives, that's entirely up to them.

I for one have not ignored the negatives. I applaud the effort to maintain a character's unique appearance and feel this is a step in the right direction. That said,  I think this can be done while still allowing for visual customization at the player's own convenience. Other RPGs that want to maintain uniqueness have simply gone about making it to where each character can only wear and choose from certain unique outfits. Upholding uniqueness is good, but upholding uniqueness while also downplaying repetition and appealing to player choice is even better.

The decrease in customization is by no means gamebreaking, but there were certainly more beneficial alternatives that would ideally please nigh-everyone.

As for you claiming that people simply don't like change, with all due respect, this argument is a cop-out. People made the same complaints about ME2 even AFTER it came out and STILL have this problem with the game.

[Collider]

you CAN for giggles...you do not HAVE to



here, in DA2 we HAVE to deal with ridiculously battle-useless outfits

Isabela is a rogue. She's not supposed to be taking damage. That's what tanks are for.

In DA:O I could have everyone be naked even though that doesn't fit any of the companions (except maybe drunk Oghren and maybe Zevran). In DA2 the outfit will always fit the character.



Sure, sometimes it can be ridiculous like Miranda's outfit, and that is something that the developers should consider, but as a whole I prefer having a consistent theme with the companions visually, rather than hoping that the best equipment doesn't make give them a totally out of character look.

[Dhiro]

David Gaider wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
so uhm.....David....just out of curiosity here, why not give people the choice?

I mean, why not handle followers like morrigan in DAO? one set of "individually relevant" outfit and then the choice to equip other things to satisfy both sides of the field

Regardless, you can still customize your PC however you like-- and there are options to outfit your followers with weapons and equipment, as well as mods.  To us, at least for DA2, that's enough.

That means that Garret and Lady (I demand that name!) will have a generic body model? Or that all the armors of the game will adjust to their body models and not the oppost?

[Sir JK]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Ya know, most people I know that are into RPG's, generally enjoy as much customization in their games as possible. I don't think I've ever heard someone I know, aside from a few people on these forums say "Hey it'd be great if they remove companion gear just so I can relate to a party member's super cool unique sleezy looking I look like a **** outfit!"

There is no denying that a lot of people, particulary fans of crpg games, enjoy customisation of both the statistical and visual kind. But customisation can also be done very poorly be redundant.
Imagine if you will, the possibility to choose blood group for your character. In the character creation you get to choose between the 4 major AB0 groups and wether he/she is Rh positive or negative. In the game however, it will never come up, be used (statistically or narratively) or mentioned. For all intents and purposes an empty choice. Would that be considered a good customisation option?

In that vein, I'd argue that the only good customisation options are the ones that are of some use. Either statistically for mostly combat purposes, for narrative purposes such as choosing what path to take through thr story, for roleplaying purposes* such as reflecting on what your character feels about a situation or in last hand for visual purposes.

(* For reference, in this post I refer to roleplaying as interacting with the narrative through choices of action and the portrayal of personality and emotion. Just to make that clear in case our defintions are different)

Traditonally in crpgs only the statistical and the visual purposes are used and if in conflict it's generally the visual purposes that gets sacreficed (meaning, you often choose the outfit providing a better bonus unless you really like the better looking one and is willing to forgo the bonus). Gear is traditionally primarily a statistical customisation and secondary visual one, any narrative or roleplaying use have to be given up completely just to provide that customisation. Things like providing a distinct look for a character, using gear cinematically, narratively and/or roleplayingly have simply been impossible to do because of the many possible iterations that customisable gear provides. The story must always go on, which means it must rely on constant factors. Customisable gear is a variable factor and thus cannot be used to make the story go on (bluntly put... technically it could in very simple ways).

Fixed gear, on the other hand, can do those things. It can be used to tell us about the character. Isabela's outfit does tell us a thing or two about her after all. It is also a strong tool in helping the character become more memorable and unique but affixing the look to the personality. It won't help an empty personality of course, but it will make a good character slightly more memorable (and in visual mediums, which games are, memorable is always positive). Again, not on it's own but in conjunction with (I can explain this better if you wish, I just didn't for the sake of brevity).
Moreover it also can be used narratively, that something on their standard outfit can actually be used plotwise and character growth and development can be visually represented by adjustment of their fixed outfit (which is a narrative concept since the dawn of theater). Roleplaying wise the outfit can now be used in dialogue, discussed in detail and a character can be shown to care for their outfit, express emotion about it. Cinematically, which ties in the the former two, is that we can be shown things that otherwise had to be abstracted. Scenes of emotion, of tension and such cna now be made without having to take into account what the character is wearing. You can have a intimate moment and a passionate kiss without having spiky armour+7 with extra burning spikes turning out to be in the way (since you only have to accomodate one character at the most having it).

The biggets disadvantage have been the loss of statistical and visual customisation. By detaching the former from the gear and making the outfits upgradeable it has been made to remain and thus only visual customisation is lost.
Which sounds like a great loss until one factor in that the only chooseable gear for it to be truly customisable would need to be applicable to all characters. While it is possible to do so and still retain a failry distinct look, most often it leads to the armour pieces being fairly generic and more often than not only reskins of each others.

That's the drawback-advantage discussion.
I'm not saying that this system is by default better. It can be if pulled off well, which we will have to wait and see if it is. It can also be pulled of very poorly and not enjoyable at all, again we'll have to wait and see for that.

I'm also not saying you have to like this system. After all ultimately it boils down to preference and nothing can change that. If you truly do prefer complete customisation then I hope there will be games that will provide this for you.

[ralph2190]

David Gaider wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
so uhm.....David....just out of curiosity here, why not give people the choice?

I mean, why not handle followers like morrigan in DAO? one set of "individually relevant" outfit and then the choice to equip other things to satisfy both sides of the field

I'm not the person to speak on this, but my understanding is that there are advantages-- both from the characterization point of view (meaning characters looking how they are supposed to look rather than having one-size-fits all bodies for the followers and mostly generic outfits-- when you see someone like Isabela, we'd like it to look like Isabela and not generic-rogue-armor with an Isabela head) as well as from an animation point of view. We're not talking about one static look, either, but I suppose for some the fact that you can't simply put any armor on your followers makes the difference semantic.

Regardless, you can still customize your PC however you like-- and there are options to outfit your followers with weapons and equipment, as well as mods.  To us, at least for DA2, that's enough.

Mr. Gaider that makes a heck a lot of sense, thanks. I was always weirded out by how Justice in Awakening, was just a rotten head on a ripped, very much alive body 

[Perfect-Kenshin]

I never put Morrigan in a chantry robe, but didn't keep her with the same outfit throughout the whole game. I gave her the best mage equipment. I like that the Possession robes looked like her starting outfit, but don't like that it looked exactly the same.

[Collider]

But because you're a power gamer and just couldn't resist, that means choice in RPGs is a bad thing?

I am definitely not a power gamer. In fact Dragon Age: Origins's gameplay was annoying to me and I wished I could skip the battles and get to the good stuff - which is the story. I wished the casual option was easier because sometimes it was too hard.

And I don't understand why you would say "choice in RPGs is a bad thing" considering I JUST said that I played Bioware games for story decisions (aka, choices). I see choosing equipment for my companions rather trivial compared to choosing what to do at the landsmeet.

And who says NPC customization isn't story based?  When I get Sten in Lothering and start outfitting him with armor, that is both me as the player getting to play "dress up" and it's also story based.  Except I get to choose how the story goes.  Which is what an RPG is supposed to offer.

Sten is a unique case. Parading Alistair and Morrigan around naked is different.

[David Gaider]

ralph2190 wrote...
Mr. Gaider that makes a heck a lot of sense, thanks. I was always weirded out by how Justice in Awakening, was just a rotten head on a ripped, very much alive body 

Indeed, and I like to think just how much cooler Justice could have looked had he a unique model to himself. Ideally, sure, there'd be variations on that model as well-- but I'm sure anyone here could come up with ways that something cool could be made even cooler if more content was created for it.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
As for you claiming that people
simply don't like change, with all due respect, this argument is a
cop-out. People made the same complaints about ME2 even AFTER it came
out and STILL have this problem with the game.

"People" meaning the people who sit on these forums day-in and day-out? My point was that those exact people are the ones who are most biased one way or the other, and in the case of DA it's still people who are emotionally committed to DAO (and good on 'em-- I happen to like that game, too) and don't have a lot of attachment to DA2 just yet. Possibly they never will, but if they choose to remain on these forums and complain to Jinstar levels of bitterness that hardly makes their points any more valid, does it?

In other words, I'm not saying these arguments are invalid-- not in the least. But considering where they're originating, they're hardly surprising, either.

Modifié par David Gaider, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ouch that one was venomous

I think I've reached Merrin's state of total apathy towards DA2.

Yes, the intensely bitter and resentful state of total apathy. Very popular on internet forums, I hear.

[crimzontearz]

David Gaider wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
so uhm.....David....just out of curiosity here, why not give people the choice?

I mean, why not handle followers like morrigan in DAO? one set of "individually relevant" outfit and then the choice to equip other things to satisfy both sides of the field

I'm not the person to speak on this, but my understanding is that there are advantages-- both from the characterization point of view (meaning characters looking how they are supposed to look rather than having one-size-fits all bodies for the followers and mostly generic outfits-- when you see someone like Isabela, we'd like it to look like Isabela and not generic-rogue-armor with an Isabela head) as well as from an animation point of view. We're not talking about one static look, either, but I suppose for some the fact that you can't simply put any armor on your followers makes the difference semantic.

Regardless, you can still customize your PC however you like-- and there are options to outfit your followers with weapons and equipment, as well as mods.  To us, at least for DA2, that's enough.

ok...these mods and upgrades are they going to be as important and effective as armor/vestments/unique items?

You know like the Torment way where we had literally NO armor but we had tattoo/rings/necklace slots to boost armor rating so much it was like we were indeed wearing armor (if we wanted to.......otherwise there were other things to boost). You know if THAT is the case then......
a lot of people would stop complaining........

also

any words on NG+ (I know I am obsessed David but if you can say anything I'd appreciate)

[Maconbar]

slimgrin wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
If you make the imaginary game I will buy it.

Deal! I'll make an imaginary game, and you can pay me with imaginary money-- and you'll have lots of imaginary fun with it, I'm sure. Or at least Sylvius will, as most of the fun he has with games appears to be imaginary anyhow.

Poor Sylvius is not even here to logically defend himself. 

Logos-based arguments are the only valid ones.

[Lord_Valandil]

David Gaider wrote...

ralph2190 wrote...
Mr. Gaider that makes a heck a lot of sense, thanks. I was always weirded out by how Justice in Awakening, was just a rotten head on a ripped, very much alive body 

Indeed, and I like to think just how much cooler Justice could have looked had he a unique model to himself. Ideally, sure, there'd be variations on that model as well-- but I'm sure anyone here could come up with ways that something cool could be made even cooler if more content was created for it.

Oh, oh.
So, no static models, then? There will be variations. Now, that makes me a little happier.
Thanks Mr. Gaider.

[upsettingshorts]

Maconbar wrote...
Logos-based arguments are the only valid ones.

/facedesk

Not this again.

[AlanC9]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

I haven't read enough of this thread, but exactly how many people actually LIKE this idea in comparison to those who DON'T like it?

On the forum?  I'd venture a guess and say a comfortable majority dislike it, on a variety of levels (from mild annoyance to complete rage) for a variety of reasons.

There might also be a strong "indifferent " vote.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Collider wrote...

But because you're a power gamer and just couldn't resist, that means choice in RPGs is a bad thing?

I am definitely not a power gamer. In fact Dragon Age: Origins's gameplay was annoying to me and I wished I could skip the battles and get to the good stuff - which is the story. I wished the casual option was easier because sometimes it was too hard.

And I don't understand why you would say "choice in RPGs is a bad thing" considering I JUST said that I played Bioware games for story decisions (aka, choices). I see choosing equipment for my companions rather trivial compared to choosing what to do at the landsmeet.

And who says NPC customization isn't story based?  When I get Sten in Lothering and start outfitting him with armor, that is both me as the player getting to play "dress up" and it's also story based.  Except I get to choose how the story goes.  Which is what an RPG is supposed to offer.

Sten is a unique case. Parading Alistair and Morrigan around naked is different.

I stopped taking this post serious at "casual was too hard"

[David Gaider]

crimzontearz wrote...
ok...these mods and upgrades are they going to be as important and effective as armor/vestments/unique items?

I don't know, and I'm not really the person to comment on them.

You know if THAT is the case then......
a lot of people would stop complaining........

The hell you say.