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[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

NPCs.

Then why do we have direct control over them in combat even when the PC is unable to give orders or isn't present?

[Aermas]

Yay! Sylvius!



Also Companions are un-customized PC's, kind of like no RPG characters

[Apollo Starflare]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

"People" meaning the people who sit on these forums day-in and day-out? My point was that those exact people are the ones who are most biased one way or the other, and in the case of DA it's still people who are emotionally committed to DAO (and good on 'em-- I happen to like that game, too) and don't have a lot of attachment to DA2 just yet. Possibly they never will, but if they choose to remain on these forums and complain to Jinstar levels of bitterness that hardly makes their points any more valid, does it?

In other words, I'm not saying these arguments are invalid-- not in the least. But considering where they're originating, they're hardly surprising, either.

Stop giving me valid reasons to be this bitter Mr Gaider, and I won't be. Why don't you guys just be honest and say either you wanted DA2 to be alot like ME2 to "try that system out" or the new EA overlords chose that direction for you. Because thats seriously the vibe you folks seem to be giving me anyway, all the while reassuring people that its not "just like ME2".

But... It's not "just like ME2". It shares a similar conversation system. I have seen other games that use the same conversation system Origins used, it didn't mean they were copying each other? The outfits thing is different to the way ME2 handled it, and from what I've heard other, successful, RPG's have had similar set ups. If they had taken away the inventory or limited our ability to customise Hawke, or even if they had not given us stat changing items for our companiosn I would get the whole ME2 freak out thing, but as it stands it's reaching.

Anyway Bioware have been open about wanting to try some things differently for DA2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

nisallik wrote...

I like it... it gives a certain personality to the character that just doesn't fit if they were wearing generic light armor tier 2 that 3 other party companions at camp are wearing.

Directing the behaviour of my characters isn't BioWare's job.

That's my job.  That's why I'm playing the game.

[addiction21]

Pritos wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't see THAT much of resemblance between what has been revealed of DA2 up to now and ME2?

I think the count is up to three now?

1. Voice player character
2. A dialogue wheel
3. Unique companion armor but unlike ME2 the DA2 allows for some measure of customazation so it might or might not really count.

[Collider]

Directing the behaviour of my characters isn't BioWare's job.



That's my job. That's why I'm playing the game.

Morrigan, Alistair, etc aren't your characters.

[Morrigans God son]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

"People" meaning the people who sit on these forums day-in and day-out? My point was that those exact people are the ones who are most biased one way or the other, and in the case of DA it's still people who are emotionally committed to DAO (and good on 'em-- I happen to like that game, too) and don't have a lot of attachment to DA2 just yet. Possibly they never will, but if they choose to remain on these forums and complain to Jinstar levels of bitterness that hardly makes their points any more valid, does it?

In other words, I'm not saying these arguments are invalid-- not in the least. But considering where they're originating, they're hardly surprising, either.

Stop giving me valid reasons to be this bitter Mr Gaider, and I won't be. Why don't you guys just be honest and say either you wanted DA2 to be alot like ME2 to "try that system out" or the new EA overlords chose that direction for you. Because thats seriously the vibe you folks seem to be giving me anyway, all the while reassuring people that its not "just like ME2".

But... It's not "just like ME2". It shares a similar conversation system. I have seen other games that use the same conversation system Origins used, it didn't mean they were copying each other? The outfits thing is different to the way ME2 handled it, and from what I've heard other, successful, RPG's have had similar set ups. If they had taken away the inventory or limited our ability to customise Hawke, or even if they had not given us stat changing items for our companiosn I would get the whole ME2 freak out thing, but as it stands it's reaching.

Anyway Bioware have been open about wanting to try some things differently for DA2.

Yes, basically they want a Mass Effect with swords.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

It's not as bad as some make it out to be

Do we still have to acquire these outfits for the companions, or are they just handed to us?

If the former, then this is less of a change than it appears.

Acquiring equipment for the party is resrouce management.  I like resource management.  I hate to lose any of it.  I'm surious whether we have.

Regardless, this isn't a vote. The podcast was just meant to answer the question (which has come up) in as complete a way as possible

Then it wouldn't have been a podcast.  A text article would have made it easier for us to ask questions about specific passages.

[Aermas]

addiction21 wrote...

Pritos wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't see THAT much of resemblance between what has been revealed of DA2 up to now and ME2?

I think the count is up to three now?

1. Voice player character
2. A dialogue wheel
3. Unique companion armor but unlike ME2 the DA2 allows for some measure of customazation so it might or might not really count.

& Unique Spec's for Companions. & a crosshair reticle to attack with

[Maconbar]

The Director wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

The Director wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

"People" meaning the people who sit on these forums day-in and day-out?

Are they all that bad? I still have yet to be here long enough to form an opinion like that.

:blink:Eegh, hope I'm not in that roster. I haven't even made a full opinion on DA2 yet.

As long as you have a full opinion by COB 7 November 2010.

Ok, I'm a newb with acronyms. What's COB?

[Yes, I'm not friendly with them. 'Laughing Out Loud' and I got into an argument over what goes better on steak and I never used it because of those events.]

COB = close of business.

fyi LOL doesn't mean laughing out loud; it means lots of love.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Collider wrote...

Morrigan, Alistair, etc aren't your characters.

I tell them where to go.  I tell them what to do.  I tell them what to use, and how to use it, and what to wear.

In what way are they not my characters?

DAO was explicity a party-based game.  That means we get a whole party to play.  DAO is the first BioWare game since BG2 to offer us this level of control over our party (KotOR came close, BG went furthest).

If DA2 isn't a party-basd game, I want to know why we get to control our whole party in combat.

[Pritos]

crimzontearz wrote...

Pritos wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't see THAT much of resemblance between what has been revealed of DA2 up to now and ME2?

what?

ok, Abilites with Upgrades....check

non customizable companion outfits .....Check

Companions with out of class/unique trees.....check

Hawke/Shepard being the only fully customizable character.....check

need I go on? not that it's all bad but......it is noticeable

Seriously, is that all? Plase go on because this is almost nothing. Games are made to be played for much more than just that. If you let factors like those be decisive when forming an opinion about a game, you should go watch a movie.

[crimzontearz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Collider wrote...

Morrigan, Alistair, etc aren't your characters.

I tell them where to go.  I tell them what to do.  I tell them what to use, and how to use it, and what to wear.

In what way are they not my characters?

DAO was explicity a party-based game.  That means we get a whole party to play.  DAO is the first BioWare game since BG2 to offer us this level of control over our party (KotOR came close, BG went furthest).

If DA2 isn't a party-basd game, I want to know why we get to control our whole party in combat.

they aren't in the sense you do not dictate their reactions to plot situations..not directly at least, so as much as they follow your orders in battle they are not your character the way the warden is for instance

[Sylvius the Mad]

addiction21 wrote...

I think the count is up to three now?

1. Voice player character
2. A dialogue wheel
3. Unique companion armor but unlike ME2 the DA2 allows for some measure of customazation so it might or might not really count.

You're downplaying the voiced character.  Its inclusion also adds multi-part PC responses without player input.

[Collider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Collider wrote...

Morrigan, Alistair, etc aren't your characters.

I tell them where to go.  I tell them what to do.  I tell them what to use, and how to use it, and what to wear.

In what way are they not my characters?

Pretty obvious. Their story and their personalities. Sure, you can influence them to an extent, but on the whole they are independent. Morrigan will always ask you to do the ritual. Alistair will always leave if you spare the "secret companion." I find what kind of equipment they are wearing to be trivial in comparison to their actual characters, which are not yours.

[Morrigans God son]

Pritos wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Pritos wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't see THAT much of resemblance between what has been revealed of DA2 up to now and ME2?

what?

ok, Abilites with Upgrades....check

non customizable companion outfits .....Check

Companions with out of class/unique trees.....check

Hawke/Shepard being the only fully customizable character.....check

need I go on? not that it's all bad but......it is noticeable

Seriously, is that all? Plase go on because this is almost nothing. Games are made to be played for much more than just that. If you let factors like those be decisive when forming an opinion about a game, you should go watch a movie.

How the heck is that nothing? It's completely different from DAO and more like ME. Seriously this game should be a sequel to ME and not DA.

[crimzontearz]

Pritos wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Pritos wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't see THAT much of resemblance between what has been revealed of DA2 up to now and ME2?

what?

ok, Abilites with Upgrades....check

non customizable companion outfits .....Check

Companions with out of class/unique trees.....check

Hawke/Shepard being the only fully customizable character.....check

need I go on? not that it's all bad but......it is noticeable

Seriously, is that all? Plase go on because this is almost nothing. Games are made to be played for much more than just that. If you let factors like those be decisive when forming an opinion about a game, you should go watch a movie.

voiced main character, Dialogue Wheel as opposed to full fledged reponses, shorter game MAYBE lack of  tactical camera (it's still up in the air)

point is in every announcement there seems to be something else borrowed from the ME2 mechanics/system..

I'm not saying these changes are all bad I am saying they lean heavily toward ME2

[Maconbar]

Aermas wrote...

Yay! Sylvius!

Also Companions are un-customized PC's, kind of like no RPG characters

Personally I like companions that seem more like NPCs. I like them to be more independent from a role-playing perspective. For example I think Wynne would be better in her implementation if she could not be a blood mage. Her character was written in a manner that made it pretty clear that she disapproved of blood magic yet the game mechanics allowed her to become a blood mage. I think that lessens her character.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Collider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Collider wrote...

Morrigan, Alistair, etc aren't your characters.

I tell them where to go.  I tell them what to do.  I tell them what to use, and how to use it, and what to wear.

In what way are they not my characters?

Pretty obvious. Their story and their personalities. Sure, you can influence them to an extent, but on the whole they are independent. Morrigan will always ask you to do the ritual. Alistair will always leave if you spare the "secret companion." I find what kind of equipment they are wearing to be trivial in comparison to their actual characters, which are not yours.

Actually with VO and the dialog paraphrasing, you even have less control over Hawke's input as well. Kinda like...wait for it....Mass Effect.

[ENolan]

Maconbar wrote...

The Director wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

The Director wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

"People" meaning the people who sit on these forums day-in and day-out?

Are they all that bad? I still have yet to be here long enough to form an opinion like that.

:blink:Eegh, hope I'm not in that roster. I haven't even made a full opinion on DA2 yet.

As long as you have a full opinion by COB 7 November 2010.

Ok, I'm a newb with acronyms. What's COB?

[Yes, I'm not friendly with them. 'Laughing Out Loud' and I got into an argument over what goes better on steak and I never used it because of those events.]

COB = close of business.

fyi LOL doesn't mean laughing out loud; it means lots of love.

Close of business? Didn't know EA or Bioware was shutting down production in two days...
[Ugh... I made myself sick with that joke....]

LOL = Lots of love? Wow, this thread is specifically lacking in that at the moment... I see the spaghetti dripping down the walls right now. [MAJOR POINTS if you get the reference.] Speaking of COB, what's Sarah's CoS stand for?

[Sir JK]

Maconbar wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Yay! Sylvius!

Also Companions are un-customized PC's, kind of like no RPG characters

Personally I like companions that seem more like NPCs. I like them to be more independent from a role-playing perspective. For example I think Wynne would be better in her implementation if she could not be a blood mage. Her character was written in a manner that made it pretty clear that she disapproved of blood magic yet the game mechanics allowed her to become a blood mage. I think that lessens her character.

Alternatively it lessens the impact of the choice itself.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

NPCs.

Then why do we have direct control over them in combat even when the PC is unable to give orders or isn't present?

Because the game makers utilize the players to overcome the limits of current software technology. In Fallout NV and ME 2, you don't have to take control of the characters, but in DA you do because BioWare couldn't develop robust enough AI to simulate a game master or another player while maintaining the level of tactical depth they desire.

It's the same reason why you're limited when it comes to quests, actions, and dialogue: the technology isn't advanced enough to simulate a complete game master.

Player control of companions is a big, blood encrusted band-aid over the single biggest weakness of computer role-playing games, but it's one that, bizarrely, some people have grown very fond of.

[Saibh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Saibh wrote...

But...no matter what I do, I can't make Leliana a mage, or spec Morrigan as a rogue. I don't have full control over them. I have control only over what the devs gave me to begin with.

What point are you trying to make?

Characters you control are PCs.  Characters you don't control are NPCs.

Which are the companions?

You made the "all or nothing" point. My point is that we've never had all or nothing. We've always had limitations set out by the developers.

[KLUME777]

addiction21 wrote...

Pritos wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't see THAT much of resemblance between what has been revealed of DA2 up to now and ME2?

I think the count is up to three now?

1. Voice player character
2. A dialogue wheel
3. Unique companion armor but unlike ME2 the DA2 allows for some measure of customazation so it might or might not really count.

Your missing locked as human, set character like shepherd, revamped gameplay.

[Aermas]

Maconbar wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Yay! Sylvius!

Also Companions are un-customized PC's, kind of like no RPG characters

Personally I like companions that seem more like NPCs. I like them to be more independent from a role-playing perspective. For example I think Wynne would be better in her implementation if she could not be a blood mage. Her character was written in a manner that made it pretty clear that she disapproved of blood magic yet the game mechanics allowed her to become a blood mage. I think that lessens her character.

Then you were not properly role-playing Wynne