1080 réponses à ce sujet

[FellowerOfOdin]

Okay guys, is it really that hard? I just asked for a reason why this is a step forward instead of a huge step back - because that what it obviously seems to be to me.

[FedericoV]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Yes, that's my point yet I still do not see a good reason for this change player-wise, so please enlighten me.

NPCs will have a unique and iconic look and unique 3D models. There is less need of inventory micromanagement. Statistically, you could have the same level of DA:O's customization: it all depends on the rule system behind runes and the mechanic behind upgrades and not on the number of items you use. Only, you will have to use less items to customize them. At the end they have only fixed companions visuals. So, it's a system that improove cinematics and storytelling, that asks less boring inventory micromanagement but that give you the otption to customize the stats of your companions nonetheless. 

[grregg]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Okay guys, is it really that hard? I just asked for a reason why this is a step forward instead of a huge step back - because that what it obviously seems to be to me.

See my post on the previous page...

[Wyndham711]

grregg wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

In Origins we had all the customization options mentioned above, but in addition we could fully choose the armor for the characters, and in Morrigan's case we also had unique character specific robes. And we have already been told that weapon choices wont be up to us anymore either - not to the same extent as they were in Origins, at least.

I think the obvious improvement would have been to add into all the pre-existing customization by, for example, including character specific outifts for every party member. I see no sense in the decision to discard arguably the most visual part of party customization, when a much more fulfilling approach is in plain sight.

The drawback of the approach in DA:O was that in order to be customizable all characters had to share body models. Ever noticed that Morrigan, Leliana and Wynne are actually different heads stuck on the very same body? That is shared with every human female in the game? That all characters of the same race and gender are of exactly same height?

I'm guessing that BioWare wanted to have characters that are a bit more unique than that. As a result full armor customization had to go. Don't see it as much of a problem especially that the idea that I can put the very same armor on Sten, Alistair and Oghren never struck me as very realistic. Unless of course silverite is Fereldan for spandex.

Yeah, I guess a main thing here is that I really don't understand the seemingly overblown allure of physically distinct or striking party members. A character like Shale can be a nice attraction, but generally I enjoy them as looking plain, ordinary and tangible, with sole focus on personality as the factor that makes them memorable.

But even so, they could modify the characters' body models when they wear their unique clothes, and then they would revert to a kind of default form when 'standard' armor is equipped. Bit crude perhaps, but I think even that would be better than the solution they chose.

[Fugue766]

I support this style if I can actually alter and increase stats unlike ME2 and if they don't cut the amount of PC armor like.... ME2, I honestly would rather your party members sport there own style and look rather than me playing dress up with all the characters and end up with them looking like each other except for there head unless I throw a helmet on everyone.

[jbell2825]

Normaly lack of choice is a bad thing, and I have my doubts. But if what I am gathering about the changes, maybe in this case lack of choice will make for a better experience. A huge part of RPG's is the story and if by somehow limiting the companions look can increase the immersion in the story then I am all for it.



If this allows Bioware to use more character models, and maintain a unique look for all the characters, I think this is an improvement. Of course this hinges on the fact that we still have some ability to change looks. But I will be honest, it was a shame to change Morrigans outfit. Once you put on anything other than her cloths, she just lost a bit of who she was. No longer was she Morrigan the mage, but rather just the 4th person in your party.



I would take less armour choice for a more character specific armour selection any day. Especially if it helps maintain the characters unique look and feel. I can see Biowares stance on this, why would they spend all of that time on developing this awesome looking characters, only to have some generic armour cover up/replace the look and feel of them?

[Bobad]

I'm a little disappointed at the idea of not being able to outfit my companions in the outfits of my choosing, that said however it does make more sense to me from a roleplaying perspective, I don't recall any other fantasy genre apart from RPG's where the protagonist told their companions what to wear, I just hope we get more than the two choices plus DLC outfits we had for ME2.



I'm sure this will also allow for more individual character models.



In DA:O it was particularly amusing to put Morrigan in Leliana's Chantry Robe.

[grregg]

Wyndham711 wrote...

grregg wrote...

(...)

The drawback of the approach in DA:O was that in order to be customizable all characters had to share body models. Ever noticed that Morrigan, Leliana and Wynne are actually different heads stuck on the very same body? That is shared with every human female in the game? That all characters of the same race and gender are of exactly same height?

I'm guessing that BioWare wanted to have characters that are a bit more unique than that. As a result full armor customization had to go. Don't see it as much of a problem especially that the idea that I can put the very same armor on Sten, Alistair and Oghren never struck me as very realistic. Unless of course silverite is Fereldan for spandex.

Yeah, I guess a main thing here is that I really don't understand the seemingly overblown allure of physically distinct or striking party members. A character like Shale can be a nice attraction, but generally I enjoy them as looking plain, ordinary and tangible, with sole focus on personality as the factor that makes them memorable.

But even so, they could modify the characters' body models when they wear their unique clothes, and then they would revert to a kind of default form when 'standard' armor is equipped. Bit crude perhaps, but I think even that would be better than the solution they chose.

Well, how much the uniformity of body models bothers you is obviously a matter of personal preference. I thought it weird that every dude in Ferelden was of exact same height. Or that elderly reverend mothers had the same body as Leliana.

Your idea of different body models for the same character would look kinda weird if the models differed in height for example. Not to mention that animation team would probably quit if you told them that they have to do every scene several times for the same character because the body models can differ.

[Ianamus]

Just because Dragon age 2 is different to Origins does not mean that it will be worse. We already have Origins, and there’s nothing wrong with trying a new approach.



This is not ME:2, where they removed the inventory system entirely and made it so you cannot customise your squad mates at all beyond weapons and abilities- all they have done here is combine three slots together and made it so that instead of changing the appearance you change the stats of your followers armour.



It’s nothing like ME:2, in fact it’s more like ME:1 (where the outfits were nearly all recolours but gave diferent stats), and very similar to the system in origins (for Hawke especially).



I don’t think it’s ‘mainstreaming’ or ‘dumming down’ the game, in fact the rune and upgrade system sound just as in depth as dragging a pair of gloves or a helmet into a slot. All it’s doing is making the companions more unique, and I’d rather have one good looking piece of upgradeable armour than the option to switch between ten pieces with fixed stats (which would actually give you less customisation).

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AlanC9 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
It's not as bad as some make it out to be, but with any change you're going to encounter the most opposition (or, at least, trepidation) amongst those who are most invested in having everything remain exactly the same.

It comes across as very dismissive when it seems like you are trying to backhandidly downplay complaints as coming only from people who wanted everything to remain the same.

But the specific complaints we're getting in this thread are about people wanting things to stay the same. Should DG have been responding to other complaints from some other thread?

Not really, some things could have used a tweak or a change, but once again, Bioware chose to go to the opposite extreme rather than find a middle ground. And once again Mr Gaider feels the need to try and belittle a portion of the fanbase rather than handle criticism and in some sense a bit of outrage over adopting something for DA2 that not many people liked in ME2.

[FellowerOfOdin]

It was good that you frequently saw the same equipment, even on enemies and allies alike - it added a lot of credibility. Less inventory management? Sounds more like "Hey, let's get even MORE casual players while alienating core gamers" to me.

I just...hope...seriously hope that Bioware did this because EA told them. I mean...I mean...Bioware...they are one of the good guys...or aren't they?

Man, I hate DA2 right now...the info we got yet does not seem to work with the image I once had from Bioware

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 06 novembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Bobad]

I just hope there will be more than two choices per character, Bethany for example would be stuck between Tavern Wench uniform and old lady dressing gown from what we have seen so far.



Plus this would be disappointing if I can't steal armour from Ser Jory and Daveth style red shirts for some quick early game cash.

[Brockololly]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Not really, some things could have used a tweak or a change, but once again, Bioware chose to go to the opposite extreme rather than find a middle ground. And once again Mr Gaider feels the need to try and belittle a portion of the fanbase rather than handle criticism and in some sense a bit of outrage over adopting something for DA2 that not many people liked in ME2.

See thats the thing- ideally, what I would have liked to see was comething like giving each companion a unique look but also giving them the ability to wear whatever, like Origins. Or, if they were going the unique look route, at least give each companion 2-4 unique outfits not just the one. Basically to add to the system you had in Origins, instead of scaling it back- thats what I expect in a sequels- adding features, not taking them away. So I think its rather disingenuous to just lump any person complaining about a given change as some nostalgia freak that wanted DA2 to be a carbon copy of Origins.

I want DA2 to be better than Origins- and some of the changes announced so far seem like a definite step backwards to me. Doesn't mean I hate every change, but taken all together,and given what BioWare has pushed in their marketing thus far, I'm having a hard time mustering up much enthusiasm for DA2.

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 novembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[errant_knight]

EJ107 wrote...

Just because Dragon age 2 is different to Origins does not mean that it will be worse. We already have Origins, and there’s nothing wrong with trying a new approach.

This is not ME:2, where they removed the inventory system entirely and made it so you cannot customise your squad mates at all beyond weapons and abilities- all they have done here is combine three slots together and made it so that instead of changing the appearance you change the stats of your followers armour.

It’s nothing like ME:2, in fact it’s more like ME:1 (where the outfits were nearly all recolours but gave diferent stats), and very similar to the system in origins (for Hawke especially).

I don’t think it’s ‘mainstreaming’ or ‘dumming down’ the game, in fact the rune and upgrade system sound just as in depth as dragging a pair of gloves or a helmet into a slot. All it’s doing is making the companions more unique, and I’d rather have one good looking piece of upgradeable armour than the option to switch between ten pieces with fixed stats (which would actually give you less customisation).

Ignoring the fact that what you kept and what you sold was actually a significant factor in the game, money being tight and your companions needing to be outfitted, ignoring the fact that this is another element of choice and roleplay that's been removed--we're stuck with outfits that we may or may not hate, whereas before we weren't. I didn't like all the clothing in Origins, but I could just put something else on them. No luck with that here. With Origins, I could even make them something else in the toolset, keeping elements of their original outfit, but adding, say, pants. I'm really starting to feel more doubtful that's going to happen either.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 novembre 2010 - 04:41 .

[Nighteye2]

David Gaider wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
so uhm.....David....just out of curiosity here, why not give people the choice?

I mean, why not handle followers like morrigan in DAO? one set of "individually relevant" outfit and then the choice to equip other things to satisfy both sides of the field

I'm not the person to speak on this, but my understanding is that there are advantages-- both from the characterization point of view (meaning characters looking how they are supposed to look rather than having one-size-fits all bodies for the followers and mostly generic outfits-- when you see someone like Isabela, we'd like it to look like Isabela and not generic-rogue-armor with an Isabela head) as well as from an animation point of view. We're not talking about one static look, either, but I suppose for some the fact that you can't simply put any armor on your followers makes the difference semantic.

Regardless, you can still customize your PC however you like-- and there are options to outfit your followers with weapons and equipment, as well as mods.  To us, at least for DA2, that's enough.

So, the main reason is to cut costs by saving on animation?

[Harcken]

My worry is that the removal of companion armor will severely cut the amount of armor Hawke has. If Hawke is the only one changing armor, why not make 4 or 5 sets instead of 15+; he's only going to be wearing one. With weapons, I'm more optimistic and hope that Bioware makes a crap ton so I can have fun choosing, visually and statistically, for my Hawke and his companions.



Other than those two worries, I don't much care about the change, I honestly didn't like Morrigan in some red robe with a stupid looking hat; but I had to do it because her armor was pretty outdated compared to the new set. As long as some companions switch out clothes, and maybe some even have "comfort" clothes in Kirkwall (especially the ones that walk around in platemail), I'll be ok.

[errant_knight]

Nighteye2 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
so uhm.....David....just out of curiosity here, why not give people the choice?

I mean, why not handle followers like morrigan in DAO? one set of "individually relevant" outfit and then the choice to equip other things to satisfy both sides of the field

I'm not the person to speak on this, but my understanding is that there are advantages-- both from the characterization point of view (meaning characters looking how they are supposed to look rather than having one-size-fits all bodies for the followers and mostly generic outfits-- when you see someone like Isabela, we'd like it to look like Isabela and not generic-rogue-armor with an Isabela head) as well as from an animation point of view. We're not talking about one static look, either, but I suppose for some the fact that you can't simply put any armor on your followers makes the difference semantic.

Regardless, you can still customize your PC however you like-- and there are options to outfit your followers with weapons and equipment, as well as mods.  To us, at least for DA2, that's enough.

So, the main reason is to cut costs by saving on animation?

No, that's not what he said. They wanted to have different body-types, so rather than implementing different body types across the board with changeable body type for every character in the game, they gave the companions their own meshes. Me, I prefer the one-body-fits-all to the removal of clothing choice, at least the way it's done here. Thye could have made meshes for each of the companions for each piece of clothing, as they did for elves, humans, etc, but with so many possible companions, that would be a lot. I can see why they went this way, I just don't prefer it. They might not have to stick with it in the next game, either. With a more 'normal' number of companions, not appearing over ten years, a larger number of meshes for each would be possible. Can't say I really cared about the single body, though. Not enough to want to mostly remove clothing choices, taking yet another aspect of player control from the game..

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

Honestly, right now, with all the comments and info we got on that case, I only see one reason for that change:



It saves time for the coders.



That's it. And that's a pretty sad reason.

[Meltemph]

Okay guys, is it really that hard? I just asked for a reason why this is a step forward instead of a huge step back - because that what it obviously seems to be to me.

People who think individuality in terms of looks is more important then customization of armor pieces. One could argue, "why can't we have both", and well, I would have to guess the reality of making games is the reason. So they decided to prioritize and they put character uniqueness over character customization for companions.

I mean, part of the reason Iranicus from BG2 or Sephiroth(love it or hate it) from FFVII was so memorable in those games, I would say has a lot to do with their unique look. And for many, that would be more important then being able to choose what armor their companions have on. Very much a preference. So while it might not be a "step forward", whatever that means, to you, for others they did not like the lack of uniqueness among the companions in the last one, in terms of looks and would rather have them be distinct then have multiple armor types, and for them that would be a "step forward".

Side note: I went golfing in Northern Michigan today, and it snowed yesterday and is about 50ish out. Fun winter this should be(unpredictable).

Modifié par Meltemph, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Sanguinerin]

Like many of you, I've followed every new shread of news for DA2. I've accepted the many changes thus far. I loved the visuals in DAO, personally, but I like the fact that DA2 is getting a unique redesign. I do love seeing new art styles or different interpretations of the same thing.

Although this is the first time I've truly been disheartened by the news of change in DA2. I haven't listened to the podcast yet and I'm going there after this, but I felt like commenting. Maybe I'll hear something different in the podcast.

I spent DAO searching for all of the clothing drops. I gathered a collection of Chantry Robes as well as Commoner and Noble Clothing. All of my NPCs and my PC have matching armor, and I don't upgrade until I get a set. Out in the wild, I keep them in their armor. It makes sense. Even if you're in a cinematic, conversation, or what have you, it makes sense to keep them prepared. In cities, however? I put my characters into clothing. During the Landsmeet, for example, I dressed Alistair in shining armor and my other PCs in Noble Clothing (I can usually get 3 in a playthrough, or 2 and a chantry robe).

I loved the idea of my characters having situational clothing. In Arl Eamon's estate, they dressed in clothes, while in the camp they were more prepared. Yes, this took a lot of sacrifice and a lot of time making sure people had the right "image" in scenes, but it's something I loved.

On one hand, I greatly love the idea of individual and unique characters. Isabela looks stunning. I loved Morrigan's robes. I would have loved if the Battledress from Leliana's Song was more unique, perhaps like her CGI appearance. (Rogue armor was my least favorite in DAO. I might play a rogue now, since rogue armor in DA2 is looking much more fantastic.) However, I liked the choice as many others did. I sacrificed and left Morrigan in her robes, but that doesn't mean others like that. She stands out, but in DAO that wasn't always best. I put her in a more traditional robe when I took her to the Circle Tower, even if I did replace her with Wynne, so that she wouldn't stand out amongst the templars.

I love the micro-managing. Having situational armor makes sense to me. If you have a coercive character, you can play it off as having asked/told the companion in question that this outfit is better for this situation, etc. I felt much more immersed in the game, when I looked through my inventory to have the best outfit for the situation.

I'm just hoping that, for instance, if we have a formal Landsmeet-esque situation, characters may look a little more clean and polished than when they're out in the wilds slashing away at creatures. I kept bloodshed on for the wilds, and neatly changed my characters armor for civilized cutscenes in cities and such.

Maybe I got too involved, but I don't see anything wrong with that. My current, right-in-the-moment feelings, are a little disheartened. I may love the new system and I'll certainly give it a chance. I mean, custimazation to that degree isn't everything for me... It was a lot, it was a huge part of my own immersion and love of my playthroughs, but I trust in the developers in giving me an amazing story with fantastic characters. I don't mind keeping the exact same outfit, but I'm hoping they can change in some little ways.

This reminds me of Final Fantasy Tactics. In new chapters, Ramza's outfit changed some to a degree. Let's say Carver the warrior stays with us throughout the entire game. Well, if Carver starts out fleeing Lothering in his sleeve-less clothing in the beginning as he and his family are caught off-guard as the city is attacked, then that's understandable. However, if throughout the game he can gain a breastplate, or metal bracers, or sleeves, then that would be great. I'm all for a unique look, but a unique look that grows as the game continues sounds all the more fantastic. He can keep his same outfit, but build upon it rather than remove it altogether.

Again, this is in no way some deal-breaker. I'm keeping my Signature pre-order and very excited to play the game as soon as it's out. I just hope, and trust, that BioWare will keep it a little more interesting than that one, unchanging style throughout the entirety of the game. Ah well, this is slightly long-winded. I'll be off to that podcast now!

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

It'll sure be awesome seeing companions in the same outfit over the span of the decade the game takes place in. Because clearly that makes so much sense to never change your clothes else you magically lose your identity.

[Meltemph]

It'll sure be awesome seeing companions in the same outfit over the span of the decade the game takes place in. Because clearly that makes so much sense to never change your clothes else you magically lose your identity.

Assuming there is no change at all, there are many who would prefer a unique look and suspend disbelief that they are not washing and changing their clothes regularly... however when it comes to something like this, I don't really understand why people take the "reality" approach, when even in DAO, you only changed the armor once in a great while(relatively).



I don't really see how one is more "realistic" then the other and trying to give companions identities through clothing is a fairly common practice among a lot of visual medium products. Losing the lack of customization, to me, is a much more legitimate complaint, then "the reality of it", specially with games like this, when there are so many other things to pick apart if you go that rout.

[tmp7704]

Meltemph wrote...

I mean, part of the reason Iranicus from BG2 or Sephiroth(love it or hate it) from FFVII was so memorable in those games, I would say has a lot to do with their unique look.

I can agree on Sephiroth since he was featured prominently in the game with many sequences and close ups showing exactly how he looked. Irenicus (or BG2 characters in general) though, their appearance in game is absolutely unmemorable for me, very much like say, appearances of characters in Fallout 1-2. The visuals just weren't detailed enough to make an impression.

Bringing Sephiroth up is funny in a way though, considering just how recently BioWare was openly mocking JRPGs for the choices they make in their development. Yet they are making pretty much the same choices here with their latest own production.