1080 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

Once you talk to Irving having refused Jowan, you're entirely railroaded into betraying him

Irving is the closest thing to a God on Earth in terms of authority as far as the Mage Warden is concerned.  Once he knows, you're either knowingly walking into a trap without his support (incredibly dumb) or working for his interests (screw Jowan).

In Exile wrote...

The plot doesn't advance if you don't, but you can help either Irving or Jowan and that creates a very different
experience. You can confess to Jowan your betrayal in the phylactry chamber.

So it's not a but thou must in the same way as a JRPG would be, where it is absolutely linear and you can't even pick vanilla flavour dialogue choices.

And that too.

Plus, what about telling your mother to screw escaping and fighting Howe's men to the death?  Or going down fighting after stabbing Bhelan in a rage after he betrays you in front of your father?  etc.

The plot has  to move forward because Bioware isn't making a sandbox game.  Freedom within the narrative is their trademark, not freedom from the narrative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[Tsuga C]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Thats the part where EA's deep pockets come in. And when they fail to deliver 10 million sellers because RPG's tend to be a niche genre, and they get shuttered 5 years down the line, they'll have no one to blame but themselves for it.

The Year 2016...

EAWare: But...but we were just moving with the times.  Everyone's producing and accepting limitation-laden, me-too games.  How could this happen to us, the special company that produced the gold standard BG and NWN1 series of games?

Educated Adult Consumers:  Because you're no longer that company.  Instead of drawing people toward the hardcore cRPG genre in which you earned your accolades in times past, you've devolved into producing cRPG-lite crapola like half a dozen other studios out there.  *yawn*   

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

No, never. This trade-off is useless. Instead of Bioware designing yet another custom and iconic outfit, they are wasting time to see if every NPC can fit in the generic mook mesh.

Leaving aside every NPC is "generic mook" in the first place and as such perfectly capable of functioning with the same mesh that works for other "generic mooks", designing is work of designers while testing is work of QA. As such, i'm not sure if the waste of time you speak of would really take place.

[grregg]

Wulfram wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Having just played through the mage Origin in DA:O, this is pretty funny.

Huh?  Jowan is going to attempt to escape, and you are going to "help," but the nature of your involvement can be fundamentally different.

Once you talk to Irving having refused Jowan, you're entirely railroaded into betraying him

Well, this part actually makes sense since he is your superior and can simply order you to do it. Perhaps a better illusion of choice could be provided by you being able to refuse and, say, getting a short cutscene of being executed by templars, but this particular part makes sense within the context of the Circle and its power structure.

It is a bit of a shame that you cannot simply ignore Jowan though...

[upsettingshorts]

grregg wrote...

It is a bit of a shame that you cannot simply ignore Jowan though...

Then you wouldn't stand out much or be in a position to be recruited by Duncan. Ergo, the story ends.

Freedom within the narrative, not freedom from it.  Simple really.

[yuri102010]

whooot just imagine having full control on their clothes/armor...I betcha some people would love to see whats underneath XP...just some people LOL

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm not sure how that applies. Bioware's audience and the JRPG audience, it would seem, share very little in common.
Some people might play both, but I think Square Enix and Bioware would probably both say there's more conflict than overlap in terms of their fanbase's expectations and what they are or aren't "bored" with.

This can be viewed as a problem in itself, when you think of it -- if the audiences of BioWare and JRPGs indeed share very little in common and have more conflict than overleap in their expectation, then a question arises if trying to sell what's "typical JRPG experience" to BioWare fanbase isn't doomed to failure or at best lukewarm response -- after all, if the audience did like this concept they'd be playing the JRPGs which can offer them exactly that?

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
No, never. This trade-off is useless. Instead of Bioware designing yet another custom and iconic outfit, they are wasting time to see if every NPC can fit in the generic mook mesh. I would always trade the ability to fit them into any armour for an iconic armour because the ability to fit them into any armour has 0 utility for me, so there is never an argument you can propose that would make agree with you that your preference should be in-game short of assuming Bioware has infinite time and resources to produce the game.

Wait a minute. He was pushing this as a "compromise," right? He's not trying to fully satisfy your preferences, so saying that his plan wouldn't devote all resources to that isn't a real objection. Presumably he gets less of what he wants too, since he doesn't value the iconic appearances at all and so won't find the work done on them useful.

I didn't buy his proposed compromise because I think the proposition heavily favors his side of the issue, but I don't think compromise itself is necessarily inefficient here.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...
This can be viewed as a problem in itself, when you think of it -- if the audiences of BioWare and JRPGs indeed share very little in common and have more conflict than overleap in their expectation, then a question arises if trying to sell what's "typical JRPG experience" to BioWare fanbase isn't doomed to failure or at best lukewarm response -- after all, if the audience did like this concept they'd be playing the JRPGs which can offer them exactly that?

Whether or not it is a problem doesn't support the argument that Bioware is hypocritical over their statements regarding stagnant development. 

[grregg]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

grregg wrote...

It is a bit of a shame that you cannot simply ignore Jowan though...

Then you wouldn't stand out much or be in a position to be recruited by Duncan. Ergo, the story ends.

Freedom within the narrative, not freedom from it.  Simple really.

No, not really, it would simply have to be yet another way to get mixed in the Jowan's mess. Say, you ignore Jowan, he does something stupid and messy involving blood magic, templars start investigating who else might be a blood mage and you get accused. For example, Lily might accuse you out of revenge. After all you are supposed to be Jowan's friend and therefore a natural suspect.

Eventually the only way out is getting recruited by Duncan before templars get medieval.

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Leaving aside every NPC is "generic mook" in the first place and as such perfectly capable of functioning with the same mesh that works for other "generic mooks", designing is work of designers while testing is work of QA. As such, i'm not sure if the waste of time you speak of would really take place.

QA tests, but if it's buggy, who ends up having to fix it? The designers do, I'm pretty sure. At least that's how it works at software development companies I'm aware of, but those are all biomedical, so it might be totally different.

More to the point, even if you were right, the cost to me is QA on this useless feature that provides 0 value compared to QA on a feature I care about. So there is still the opportunity cost there.

No matter who is doing the work, the opportunity cost will always be that someone at Bioware is working at on a feature with 0 value for me versus a feature with non-0 value for me, so I'm always going to be against this feature.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Tsuga C wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Thats the part where EA's deep pockets come in. And when they fail to deliver 10 million sellers because RPG's tend to be a niche genre, and they get shuttered 5 years down the line, they'll have no one to blame but themselves for it.

The Year 2016...

EAWare: But...but we were just moving with the times.  Everyone's producing and accepting limitation-laden, me-too games.  How could this happen to us, the special company that produced the gold standard BG and NWN1 series of games?

Educated Adult Consumers:  Because you're no longer that company.  Instead of drawing people toward the hardcore cRPG genre in which you earned your accolades in times past, you've devolved into producing cRPG-lite crapola like half a dozen other studios out there.  *yawn*   

To be honestly they started moving that way prior to the buy out, but their titles still catered enough to the hardcore niche. Its very obvious though that they now want to pay much more focus to consoles, and want to streamline beyond the point of dumbing down thus alienating the core audience that garnered them that gold standard moniker in the first place.

[upsettingshorts]

I imagine they'd argue that their fans didn't make them the company they are. They made themselves the company they are and earned fans because of it.

Still, losing ones niche appeal is a pretty obvious problem in any business. Not an insurmountable one, but one that has to be dealt with.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[Aermas]

It's like Sid Meier not making RTS's
Could you imagine the abomination of a FPS made my Sid Meier?

Modifié par Aermas, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[Dave of Canada]

Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't shed a tear if a few people that always yells, insults other people and hates everything left.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
Wait a minute. He was pushing this as a "compromise," right? He's not trying to fully satisfy your preferences, so saying that his plan wouldn't devote all resources to that isn't a real objection. Presumably he gets less of what he wants too, since he doesn't value the iconic appearances at all and so won't find the work done on them useful.

I didn't buy his proposed compromise because I think the proposition heavily favors his side of the issue, but I don't think compromise itself is necessarily inefficient here.

I look at this feature like you would look at Co-Op. There is a minimum threshold I'm willing to accept, but I think it's pretty non-negotiable for the other side. I would only agree to a system where the armour being used is recycled. That is to say, Bioware never designs armour with the intention the companion NPCs would wear. It is all for the mooks. If he is okay with having the option to swap and mold bodies to whatever mook build Bioware wants to provide, that I would be willing to sacrifice resources for to increase the financial success of the game.

[upsettingshorts]

Aermas wrote...

It's like Sid Meier not making RTS's

Yeah, this game was terrible:

[Clover Rider]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't shed a tear if a few people that always yells, insults other people and hates everything left.

It's not just you;).

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
To be honestly they started moving that way prior to the buy out, but their titles still catered enough to the hardcore niche. Its very obvious though that they now want to pay much more focus to consoles, and want to streamline beyond the point of dumbing down thus alienating the core audience that garnered them that gold standard moniker in the first place.

Which titles? Jade Empire? Mass Effect/ Knights of the Old Republic? That's the past 7 years of Bioware.

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't shed a tear if a few people that always yells, insults other people and hates everything left.

It's why I don't post on the SW:TOR boards.  I'd have turned into one of those people by now.  

SWG! RAGE!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

QA tests, but if it's buggy, who ends up having to fix it? The designers do, I'm pretty sure. At least that's how it works at software development companies I'm aware of, but those are all biomedical, so it might be totally different.

But if it's buggy then the bug affects also other "generic mooks" i.e. large amount of regular NPCs in the game, so it has to be fixed anyway. And for the same reason these tests have to be performed by QA in the first place. I really don't think you'd be getting any additional unique outfit for a companion here either way.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I imagine they'd argue that their fans didn't make them the company they are. They made themselves the company they are and earned fans because of it.

Still, losing ones niche appeal is a pretty obvious problem in any business. Not an insurmountable one, but one that has to be dealt with.

Fair enough, but the reasoning behind it, seems to be this idea that somehow by doing it they'll sell 10 million copies a game. And I'm sorry, thats just not going to happen. Not every title is going to do Call of Duty type numbers. Regardless of how much you try to tweak it for the mainstream casual audience.

They could have tried to find a middle ground on all of the core systems, so that in turn everyone could at least be content to some extent. But they decided against doing that for whatever reason, be it time constraints, directive from above, lack of desire/too much work. etc.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Fair enough, but the reasoning behind it, seems to be this idea that somehow by doing it they'll sell 10 million copies a game. And I'm sorry, thats just not going to happen. Not every title is going to do Call of Duty type numbers. Regardless of how much you try to tweak it for the mainstream casual audience.

I know all about the pitfalls associated with those kinds of decisions:

SWG! RAGE!

[AlanC9]

grregg wrote...
No, not really, it would simply have to be yet another way to get mixed in the Jowan's mess. Say, you ignore Jowan, he does something stupid and messy involving blood magic, templars start investigating who else might be a blood mage and you get accused. For example, Lily might accuse you out of revenge. After all you are supposed to be Jowan's friend and therefore a natural suspect.

Eventually the only way out is getting recruited by Duncan before templars get medieval.

That would work. It would also be very short, and possibly even more annoying for the player. You get less combat practice, less XP (though I suppose they could give you XP for doing nothing), less loot, less playtime, and you still get railroaded.

[Ulicus]

Oh my god, how could you DO this BioWare? Every companion has a unique look? They can't just equip any old gear and armour?



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HOW COULD YOU RIP OFF PLANESCAPE:TORMENT LIKE THIS!?