1080 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yeah, this game was terrible:

[snip the box]

the ballroom dancing was awesome. I had special slippers for it and all.

[Aermas]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Aermas wrote...

It's like Sid Meier not making RTS's

Yeah, this game was terrible:

This is the exception that proves the rule

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Fair enough, but the reasoning behind it, seems to be this idea that somehow by doing it they'll sell 10 million copies a game. And I'm sorry, thats just not going to happen. Not every title is going to do Call of Duty type numbers. Regardless of how much you try to tweak it for the mainstream casual audience.

I know all about the pitfalls associated with those kinds of decisions:

SWG! RAGE!

Exactly, I actually played SWG shortly after launch as a Creature Handler and despite some bugs which any MMO will have shortly after launch, enjoyed it and had alot of fun. I tried it again a while back to find that the game wasn't SWG anymore and sucked something fierce.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[ErichHartmann]

Ulicus wrote...

Oh my god, how could you DO this BioWare? Every companion has a unique look? They can't just equip any old gear and armour?

...

...


HOW COULD YOU RIP OFF PLANESCAPE:TORMENT LIKE THIS!?

Yeah, how could they rip off the worst RPG ever?!

[tmp7704]

Ulicus wrote...

Oh my god, how could you DO this BioWare? Every companion has a unique look? They can't just equip any old gear and armour?

HOW COULD YOU RIP OFF PLANESCAPE:TORMENT LIKE THIS!?

You know, for all the praises people heap onto Planescape, companions don't seem to get a mention as the highlight/memorable aspect of the game. Or the combat. Or character customization.

... or pretty much anything other than "the writing was awesome and you could win the game picking one response in dialogue"

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[AlanC9]

Ulicus wrote...
HOW COULD YOU RIP OFF PLANESCAPE:TORMENT LIKE THIS!?

We can shut down the thread now.

[Tsuga C]

Ulicus wrote...
HOW COULD YOU RIP OFF PLANESCAPE:TORMENT LIKE THIS!?

If DA2 is another Planscape: Torment, then I'll be more than happy to apologize for having my doubts.  

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
But if it's buggy then the bug affects also other "generic mooks" i.e. large amount of regular NPCs in the game, so it has to be fixed anyway. And for the same reason these tests have to be performed by QA in the first place. I really don't think you'd be getting any additional unique outfit for a companion here either way.

There may be unique problems from swapping the meshes that crop up for companion NPCs versus having a fixed mesh for all mooks with fixed equipment. That's what I was thinking of.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Oh my god, how could you DO this BioWare? Every companion has a unique look? They can't just equip any old gear and armour?

HOW COULD YOU RIP OFF PLANESCAPE:TORMENT LIKE THIS!?

You know, for all the praises people heap onto Planescape, companions don't seem to get a mention as the highlight/memorable aspect of the game. Or the combat. Or character customization.

... or pretty much anything other than "the writing was awesome and you could win the game picking one response in dialogue"

That's because the writting was pretty much the big highlight of Torment. Personally I always found it to be an overall overrated average title.

[Ulicus]

@TMP

Where, of course, "totally mainstream, dumbed down softcore RPG" is the first thing that springs to everyone's mind.

And the companions were awesome. So, too, was the character customisation. Not superficially, and you were stuck as a bloke, but in every other respect? Yes, it was awesome.

Modifié par Ulicus, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

I really think there is some kind of fundamental disconnect in terms of what Bioware makes and what people think they make, because DA:O stopped being the "rule" of what Bioware makes 7 years ago.

We might have grown up with a different Bioware. I grew up with the Bioware that created true RPG masterpieces like Baldur's Gate and NWN while the most recent Bioware created...good games that just did not get close to what they used to produce in the "good ol' days". Why? Because of the video game market. Back at BG time, games were more or less a niche genre and nowadays, games are incredibly well-known and the market is as capitalist as possible. 

BG was awesome because it was completely fair. It was hard. Very hard. You either took some time and dug in the rules or you had no chance and stopped playing. Those you did play it are core gamers. People who love games and are willing to spend some time on them. People with an attention span of more than 30 minutes. People who were tough...kinda. 

Nowadays market is different. The more casual a game, the easier you can make people play it. More players, more profit, EA, dun-dun-duuuuun. Who loses? The core gamers. We usually get games that are aimed at a casual market and thus are hardly a challenge. Bioware does the same. Mass Effect was too easy, Dragon Age as well to a lesser degree and Awakening was a mess balance-wise. Yet Dragon Age was at close to a core RPG as we get nowadays. It had strategic combat, an awesome story and...some memorable characters. 

Dragon Age 2...now that's another case. We only have so few information as of now yet it seems that we core gamers are left aside as usual. Less customizable characters, "faster" combat that's better for consoles (and of course, the PC system won't get changed, that's why we only saw console combat footage yet...) no increase in difficulty...etc. Don't get me wrong, I am pretty sure that DA2 will be a good game as well, but it is a modern game -in every way. And this also means potentially alienating core gamers.

/e: just re-read the post and I just want to emphasize that I do NOT expect DA2 to be a one-dimensional, dumbed-down RPG. I just fear that it's a lot less "traditional" and more focused on getting more casual gamers in the boat.
That already worked with C&C, right EA? Huar huar.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ulicus wrote...

HOW COULD YOU RIP OFF PLANESCAPE:TORMENT LIKE THIS!?

Ha!

Aermas wrote...

This is the exception that proves the rule

That phrase is only useful in a limited set of circumstances. Most of the time it's completely meaningless. Sid Meier is a damn good developer who has worked on many different well-received games in a variety of genres. Don't take my word for it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:07 .

[AlanC9]

tmp7704 wrote...
You know, for all the praises people heap onto Planescape, companions don't seem to get a mention as the highlight/memorable aspect of the game. Or the combat. Or character customization.

... or pretty much anything other than "the writing was awesome and you could win the game picking one response in dialogue"

When people talk about the writing, a lot of that necessarily involves the companions.

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
You know, for all the praises people heap onto Planescape, companions don't seem to get a mention as the highlight/memorable aspect of the game. Or the combat. Or character customization.

... or pretty much anything other than "the writing was awesome and you could win the game picking one response in dialogue"

In preparation for the lynching that will follow, I thought Planescape was a better game than BGII. I thought the gameplay was poor in both (though I played both in 2008), but I thought the story and characters were much better done in Planescape. BGII was interesting in seeing how Bioware improved as a company, but all I could see in that game were limitations and dated features Bioware later improved on (like the companion timers, ugh).

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Ulicus wrote...

Where, of course, "totally mainstream, dumbed down softcore RPG" is the first thing that springs to everyone's mind.

The first thing that springs to my mind is ME2, followed by any of those garbage Fable games.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[In Exile]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...
We might have grown up with a different Bioware. I grew up with the Bioware that created true RPG masterpieces like Baldur's Gate and NWN while the most recent Bioware created...good games that just did not get close to what they used to produce in the "good ol' days". Why? Because of the video game market. Back at BG time, games were more or less a niche genre and nowadays, games are incredibly well-known and the market is as capitalist as possible. 

I thought NWN was a thoroughly mediocre game. Hordes of the Underdark was great, but I saw Bioware as a mediocre company not worth much attention based on NWN alone.

BG was awesome because it was completely fair. It was hard. Very hard. You either took some time and dug in the rules or you had no chance and stopped playing. Those you did play it are core gamers. People who love games and are willing to spend some time on them. People with an attention span of more than 30 minutes. People who were tough...kinda.

BG isn't tough. BG just has a steep learning curve. If you've never played 2nd edition D&D before, the game is a tremendous pain in the ass to master. If you grasp the mechanics of it and know how to stack your buffs, BG isn't very challenging.

And that's just the gameplay. The characters were sparse, the story was missing for most of the game, and there was very little in the game. I just do not see BG as a very good game, much less a great game.

Nowadays market is different. The more casual a game, the easier you can make people play it. More players, more profit, EA, dun-dun-duuuuun. Who loses? The core gamers. We usually get games that are aimed at a casual market and thus are hardly a challenge. Bioware does the same. Mass Effect was too easy, Dragon Age as well to a lesser degree and Awakening was a mess balance-wise. Yet Dragon Age was at close to a core RPG as we get nowadays. It had strategic combat, an awesome story and...some memorable characters.

But why are you the core? Why am I not the core, who's been with Bioware since KoTOR? What makes your tastes special? You see Bioware as doing everything wrong and they are in danger of losing your business. I think they're doing everything right and they have to really screw up to lose mine.

Why are you the core and why aren't I?

[TheMufflon]

tmp7704 wrote...

You know, for all the praises people heap onto Planescape, companions don't seem to get a mention as the highlight/memorable aspect of the game.

What? The companions in Planescape: Torment are frequently mentioned as being some of the best and most interesting in any game ever. That game bascially started the trend of companions being more than just differently flavoured stat packages.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:16 .

[tmp7704]

AlanC9 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
You know, for all the praises people heap onto Planescape, companions don't seem to get a mention as the highlight/memorable aspect of the game. Or the combat. Or character customization.

... or pretty much anything other than "the writing was awesome and you could win the game picking one response in dialogue"

When people talk about the writing, a lot of that necessarily involves the companions.

And is the quality of that companion-related writing a direct result of said companions being locked in single, predefined appearance? Or are these things totally unrelated and such bringing up Planescape in this context is very much a red herring?

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...
And is the quality of that companion-related writing a direct result of said companions being locked in single, predefined appearance? Or are these things totally unrelated and such bringing up Planescape in this context is very much a red herring?

Wouldn't bringing up JRPGs also qualify?  It strikes me that neither comparison is particularly necessary and only detracts from the core of the issue.

Is the tradeoff worth it?  What does Bioware accomplish with the decision?  What do they sacrifice?  Is the problem conceptual or based on feelings of how it was executed in Mass Effect 2?

There's plenty of room for proper discussion within that limited and entirely on topic context.

[Wyndham711]

AlanC9 wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

But even so, they could modify the characters' body models when they wear their unique clothes, and then they would revert to a kind of default form when 'standard' armor is equipped.

That isn't a solution to anything -- anyone who thought the DAO bodies were a problem would find that to be even worse. It works for you, sure, but that's because you didn't have a problem in the first place.

How so? Assuming the outfits would scale throughout the game (as they now will), the people who want to have their characters look more 'unique' could well do so without any trouble, but conversly people who enjoyed Origins' system and who want more choice in the matter would have their way as well.

[TheMufflon]

Bah, pressed quote instead of edit.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Once you talk to Irving having refused Jowan, you're entirely railroaded into betraying him

Irving is the closest thing to a God on Earth in terms of authority as far as the Mage Warden is concerned.  Once he knows, you're either knowingly walking into a trap without his support (incredibly dumb) or working for his interests (screw Jowan

Unless he's a blood mage, he can't force you into telling him Jowan's plans.  Nor can he stop you telling Jowan and Lily that all you will accomplish by following through in the plan is getting Lily sent to Aeonar.

[ErichHartmann]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

We might have grown up with a different Bioware. I grew up with the Bioware that created true RPG masterpieces like Baldur's Gate and NWN while the most recent Bioware created...good games that just did not get close to what they used to produce in the "good ol' days". Why? Because of the video game market. Back at BG time, games were more or less a niche genre and nowadays, games are incredibly well-known and the market is as capitalist as possible. 

NWN original campaign is hardly a masterpiece.  The writing was mediocre at best and without a toolset NWN would have never been popular.  I have always considered RPGs mainstream.  During the 80's Ultima was very high profile and the 90's saw a steady stream of titles.  Diablo, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Might and Magic, etc reached a wide audience.     

[FellowerOfOdin]

In Exile wrote...
But why are you the core? Why am I not the core, who's been with Bioware since KoTOR? What makes your tastes special? You see Bioware as doing everything wrong and they are in danger of losing your business. I think they're doing everything right and they have to really screw up to lose mine.

Why are you the core and why aren't I?

"Core gamer" does not mean "sticking around with something for a while", "core gamer" means people who are into complex games, willing to spend time on them whereas "casual gamers" are the opposite - they need someone who holds their hands because they are unwilling to learn stuff.

And you will go to hell for saying that BG was not awesome!

(THIS WAS FUN I DO NOT MEAN THAT HE SHOULD TRULY GO TO HELL I DID NOT INTEND TO OFFEND HIM)

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
And is the quality of that companion-related writing a direct result of said companions being locked in single, predefined appearance? Or are these things totally unrelated and such bringing up Planescape in this context is very much a red herring?

Wouldn't bringing up JRPGs also qualify?  It strikes me that neither comparison is particularly necessary and only detracts from the core of the issue.

I think if BioWare went on record regarding quality of Black Isle games or lack thereof, then pointing out they're making the same choices Black Isle did could have overall more relevance than just bringing it up because both games happen to have companions with fixed appearance. That said, my initial comment about the JRPGs was very much a side note (that others have decided to respond to) rather than post made specifically to point it out and with nothing more to it.