1080 réponses à ce sujet

[The Masked Rog]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

They're meant to be an extention of the player imo. Its the whole point of it being a "party" based CRPG. Other wise  they may as well just do an Elder Scrolls type of deal where you just control the one character.

Then they should go all the way and make us control what they say and what their perosnality is. It is just illogical that Sten has such a firm personality and then does as the player says as though he was just an extension of the player will.

[Ulicus]

If they're meant to be an extension of the player, why don't we get to name them and dictate their personalities?

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Modifié par Ulicus, 06 novembre 2010 - 10:26 .

[Wyndham711]

I think this is where interpretation from the player comes into play. When I listen to a party character in a game like Dragon Age, I come into certain conclusions about their personality. Those conclusions may not be the same as they are with other players. There can be many different, sometimes even conflicting 'readings' of the practically same characters.

What's more - in some cases the player can provide the party members with additional depth and character development that didn't come from the writers. For example, in my 'reading' of Sten I can emphasize his regrets and a certain inner conflict, whereas some people might not see that as happening at all with the character.

And if you don't think that's something not worth doing or doesn't have enough foundation, then you don't have to do it - the characters can well be taken at face value. But I certainly appreciate every time it is possible for me to have all those different readings and fill in the gaps. Now that Hawke is voiced, the way I have been roleplaying party members is probably going to be a bit like the way I'll be roleplaying a more predefined PC like him/her.

[Shiakazee]

Brockololly wrote...

I highly, highly doubt they'll give any extra unique looking outfits over the course of the game. Just like Garrus stayed in his ratty armor the whole time despite having plenty of chances to no doubt get something new or Morrigan staying in her scraps of fabric despite trudging through the snowy mountain in Haven.The whole point besides claiming "unique" looks is that it frees up memory.

And I can all but guarantee they'll be pumping out the horse armor....I mean companion armor DLC thanks to this- just like ME2.

Yes i do love how they softened the blow of losing the customization of companions by saying they will have unique costumes.   I agree with you on the dlc too, theyre just gonna churn out a bunch of costumes after da2 launches.  This is so lame.  I mean they said this wasnt going to become mass effect with swords but its slowly becoming just that.  At least we can still customize hawke:innocent:.  If this is the way bioware games are gonna be like from now on they are gonna lose a lot of fans. 

[Saibh]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Which is pretty much saying "I perfer the developers to decide for me" Which defeats the whole purpose of translating a tabletop party experience to a single player party based RPG.

Except, that's not what they're trying to do. Maybe that's how the genre started, but things change and evolve. It's an action RPG, they said as much. Tactics are staying. Party based gameplay is staying. I imagine BioWare to craft the fantastic characters and story they always do.

Not everyone is going to like DA2. You probably won't. I can no longer aesthetically change how my party member's appear but I can alter the stats and bonuses of their armor. I think the intention is, rather for party members to be my tools that have personalities when we talk in camp, they are always their own character, rather than when I want them to be. Case in point: Wynne the blood mage harping on and on about blood magic. Leliana being able to use a sword and shield without Talents as well as my hardened warriors.

Which one you, or any person, thinks is superior is probably irrelevant; this is the system they're going with.

[Meltemph]

 

Which defeats the whole purpose of translating a tabletop party experience to a single player party based RPG.  

 

The whole point of party based CRPG's is to represent that "tabletop" experience in a single player setting.

Pen & Paper table top RPGs =! Computer RPG's.

Modifié par Meltemph, 06 novembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[RifuloftheWest]

The Masked Rog wrote...

Then they should go all the way and make us control what they say and what their perosnality is. It is just illogical that Sten has such a firm personality and then does as the player says as though he was just an extension of the player will.

The other extreme would be to not have it be a party based game at all.

Curious that Sten's personality is so firm that he follows the lead of the Warden at all, nevermind a mage Warden. Or that Morigan has such disdain for those around her and yet treats the Warden with some modicum of respect. They (and the other companions) have already submitted themselves to your leadership. If better equipment comes along or you as the leader determine to buy a certain set of armor, do you not think that companions will take advantage of that? The Warden gives them gifts - can that not translate to equipment as well?

I think the aspect of the player controling the equipping of party members in a party based game was summarized very nicely by this quote from tmp7704:

Since the companions don't have programmed logic to actually choose
equipment though and do not make these decisions, there isn't really
anything wrong with allowing player to fill in. (the player as opposed
to player's own character -- Morrigan may not listen to the Warden's
input regarding equipment, but you can have the player's mind substitute
for NPC's non-existent one without bringing in-game relationships
between characters into it at all)

Since your companions draw from the inventory pool for potions and such, is it really such a stretch that they would do so for other equipment? And since the game mechanic does not allow for the companions to equip themselves, the vehicle that is used is the omnipresent player's control input.

Your issue with trying to convince Morrigan that she should wear plate armor and become an arcane warrior doesn't really seem like an issue at all - especially for a single player game. You obviously do not think that she would take such action (not without significant persuading anyway) so why would it come up in your game anyway?

That is the great thing about the level of customization and options that DAO had - it was your choice. You used the autoleveler for your companions because it made sense to you. By that same token, you could have just as easily left Morrigan in her robes or Sten in his rags if the silliness of it really bothered you so much that you could not go with the mechanic of you - as the player - filling in for an equip algorithm.

Even with DA2's proposed system, there will be control input from the player for equipping the accessory items/armor runes/weapons, etc. If it seems silly that Sten would allow the Warden to give him Wade's Superior Dragonbone armor, it should be just as silly to you that Isabela would accept the ring of +5 dex from Hawke. And if you actually do feel that is silly then perhaps you do think that the game should not be party based.

I do think that adding a convince option for companions to equip certain things would be interesting.

Modifié par RifuloftheWest, 06 novembre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Wyndham711]

Taking out the possibility to customize the look of the party members (in addition to loosing/diluting a straight up gameplay mechanic I generally very much enjoy in gear/loot) means that it will restrict my possibilities in fleshing out the interpretations or 'readings' I make of the characters on screen.



For example, on my second playthrough I saved Sten from the cage, but my character was extremely leery and unrespectful of him, which I was able to visualize in having Sten walk around in sub quality armor. My character viewed Sten as an untrustworthy but useful goon, whose strength he could utilize but wasn't ready to invest in him by allowing him to use some of the higher quality gear the party had found. This attitude changed in time, which was again visualized by a clear increase in quality with Sten's gear. None of this will be possible with the new system as it has been described.

[The Masked Rog]

[quote]



Taking out the possibility to customize the look of the party members (in addition to loosing/diluting a straight up gameplay mechanic I generally very much enjoy in gear/loot) means that it will restrict my possibilities in fleshing out the interpretations or 'readings' I make of the characters on screen.

[quote]

Good. Characters should be fleshed out by the writers. If the player feels the need to fill in gaps, than either these gaps are irrelevant and it is all an exercise in imagination (which is fine) or they are relevant (such as with clothing preference) and the writers should address it. The PC is open to interpretation. In an RPG I prefer if other people behave as real human beings and make their own choices.

[Wyndham711]

[quote]The Masked Rog wrote...

[quote]

Taking out the possibility to customize the look of the party members (in addition to loosing/diluting a straight up gameplay mechanic I generally very much enjoy in gear/loot) means that it will restrict my possibilities in fleshing out the interpretations or 'readings' I make of the characters on screen.
[quote]
Good. Characters should be fleshed out by the writers. If the player feels the need to fill in gaps, than either these gaps are irrelevant and it is all an exercise in imagination (which is fine) or they are relevant (such as with clothing preference) and the writers should address it. The PC is open to interpretation. In an RPG I prefer if other people behave as real human beings and make their own choices.[/quote]

As I said earlier, if one doesn't like to make those interpretations or additions, one certainly doesn't have to. But I most definitely do want to, when ever it's possible. And I certainly don't think this chosen style of handling party gear is leaving much room for me in terms of visualizing my interpretations or readings of the characters. And this isn't even the biggest problem I have with the change.

[Addai]

The Masked Rog wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

They're meant to be an extention of the player imo. Its the whole point of it being a "party" based CRPG. Other wise  they may as well just do an Elder Scrolls type of deal where you just control the one character.

Then they should go all the way and make us control what they say and what their perosnality is. It is just illogical that Sten has such a firm personality and then does as the player says as though he was just an extension of the player will.

Er, they do.  Ever harden Leliana or Alistair?  Ever Intimidate Sten into getting back into line or kick his ass when he didn't?

[The Masked Rog]

Addai67 wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

They're meant to be an extention of the player imo. Its the whole point of it being a "party" based CRPG. Other wise  they may as well just do an Elder Scrolls type of deal where you just control the one character.

Then they should go all the way and make us control what they say and what their perosnality is. It is just illogical that Sten has such a firm personality and then does as the player says as though he was just an extension of the player will.

Er, they do.  Ever harden Leliana or Alistair?  Ever Intimidate Sten into getting back into line or kick his ass when he didn't?

Not what I'm saying. In those cases you are influencing the NPCs through roleplaying you character. Definitely not controling them. What I mean is you should have to convince a NPC to wear a armor that isn't his style. For example, you shouldn't be able to give sten low quality armor. He should just pick one that better suited him from among the corpses of enemies.

[chubbymedic]

It would be ALOT easier if party members could automatically upgrade from armor drops. Provided I get first dibs and can swap them to someone else if i want.

[RifuloftheWest]

I find it interesting when the "clothing is an extension of personality" topic is brought up to support why the player should not be able to equip companions.



Morrigan comments that her choice of attire had to do with living in the wilds when Leliana talks about "a little rip here/tear there". But given that we learn Morrigan values power, do you think she would shy away from the Reaper's Vestments?



Or Leliana's love of the Maker. We first meet her in Chantry robes. Do you really see her sullying those robes with the blood of her enemies? Or not wanting to buy the Orlesian made Shadow's of the Empire armor.



Then we have Sten of the Beresaad - a warrior who values his duty above all else. Will he really say no to XYZ god armor if it helps him answer the question "What is the Blight?"



Considering the type of era that Dragon Age takes place in, I find it unlikely that the companions who are involved in a life and death struggle would place more importance as to how they can express themselves through unique clothing choices rather than what can help them survive.

[The Masked Rog]

RifuloftheWest wrote...

I find it interesting when the "clothing is an extension of personality" topic is brought up to support why the player should not be able to equip companions.

Morrigan comments that her choice of attire had to do with living in the wilds when Leliana talks about "a little rip here/tear there". But given that we learn Morrigan values power, do you think she would shy away from the Reaper's Vestments?

Or Leliana's love of the Maker. We first meet her in Chantry robes. Do you really see her sullying those robes with the blood of her enemies? Or not wanting to buy the Orlesian made Shadow's of the Empire armor.

Then we have Sten of the Beresaad - a warrior who values his duty above all else. Will he really say no to XYZ god armor if it helps him answer the question "What is the Blight?"

Considering the type of era that Dragon Age takes place in, I find it unlikely that the companions who are involved in a life and death struggle would place more importance as to how they can express themselves through unique clothing choices rather than what can help them survive.

That's not my point. If Morrigan won't shy away from the robes of the reaper make it her choice to hear them. Or make me talk to her about hearing them. Don't make me act as if I were her and wear them.

[M8DMAN]

This news about the inventory system makes me sad. Bioware taking more choices out of the players hands.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:30 .

[RifuloftheWest]

The Masked Rog wrote...

That's not my point. If Morrigan won't shy away from the robes of the reaper make it her choice to hear them. Or make me talk to her about hearing them. Don't make me act as if I were her and wear them.

Then I can see where you and I are different. Call me delusionally imaginative, but that conversation between Morrigan and the Warden about purchasing the Reaper's Vestment happens in my head. I as the player - not the player character - act as the medium of buying then equipping the vestments onto Morrigan on her behalf. And I'm perfectly fine with that and quite enjoy it.

I even adapt my game play to fit. I'll only purchase it for her if we're in a relationship or at least on friendly terms. Likewise, on playthroughs where my Warden is antagonistic towards her, the attempt to convince her to learn the skills of an arcane warrior is not even made and that specialization point remains unused. You can bet that the minimum amount of money is spent on her gear on those playthroughs as well.

Anyway, if I understand you correctly, you simply do not want to act "as them" as it were. Based on your comment about using the autoleveler, I suspect that you fully set up party tactics and let them roam free in battle. For me, "acting as them" is fun and fulfilling - especially during battle.

Again, I have to state that I would find it interesting if such as system were put in place where a "convince" type of event would have to occur in order to unlock certain equipment. But as it stands, I prefer having the option to customize companion equipment because it enriches my playthrough.

The whole "unique look" aspect for me is something that I did not miss in DAO since I've taken advantage of many armor and clothing mods available to the PC version. Thus, I'm less excited about the advantages this change will bring to DA2.

However, while I am disappointed that armor customization is less for the companions in DA2, I am certainly open and willing to experience the new system.

Modifié par RifuloftheWest, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:40 .

[In Exile]

Wyndham711 wrote...
As I said earlier, if one doesn't like to make those interpretations or additions, one certainly doesn't have to. But I most definitely do want to, when ever it's possible. And I certainly don't think this chosen style of handling party gear is leaving much room for me in terms of visualizing my interpretations or readings of the characters. And this isn't even the biggest problem I have with the change.

That's certainly fine, but the thing you have to appreciate is that for us, any feature that destroys your ability to fill in the gaps by making content explicit is a good thing, and we want more features of this sort. So obviously if there are gaps it would be silly for me to tell you not to fill them, but at the same time I hope that these gaps would never be repeated in a further game.

Addai67 wrote...
Er, they do.  Ever harden Leliana or
Alistair?  Ever Intimidate Sten into getting back into line or kick his
ass when he didn't?

This misses the point entirely. These are cases where we can alter them through the game. I am not using my magic powers to "become" Alistair or Leliana or whatever nonsense is being advocated. As a separate and disticnt person, I happen to express an opinion and this changes who they are. This is a good thing, and precisey what I want all companion interaction to be like.

RifuloftheWest wrote...

I find it interesting when the
"clothing is an extension of personality" topic is brought up to support
why the player should not be able to equip companions.

Considering
the type of era that Dragon Age takes place in, I find it unlikely that
the companions who are involved in a life and death struggle would
place more importance as to how they can express themselves through
unique clothing choices rather than what can help them survive.

We are not saying that the clothing should be static. I, for example, am not very pleased with what Bioware is doing with the clothing. Sure, I think from an aesthetic standpoint a custom mesh is superior to generic equipment, but I'm not arguing for a custom mesh for the sake of aesthetic. I want it to impact the game.

So in this case, if you found Robes of Infinite Power +10, Morrigan should explicitly ask for them. If you give her the item it becomes impossible for you to equip it but she gains approval and the new item, or you keep it for yourself and she losses approval.

This is role-playing, as opposed to fan fiction. I want my role-playing game to involve reactivity, not whatever fan fiction I feel like writing.

Essentially, our conflict is whether role-play is internal or external. I think it's external, and the game has to show it. This is why VO > No VO, why custom mesh > generic loot, etc.

Modifié par In Exile, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[In Exile]

RifuloftheWest wrote...
Anyway, if I understand you correctly, you simply do not want to act "as them" as it were. Based on your comment about using the autoleveler, I suspect that you fully set up party tactics and let them roam free in battle. For me, "acting as them" is fun and fulfilling - especially during battle.

Yes, basically. This stuff doesn't happen. To me, it's like writing a fan fiction, and if I wanted to do that, I'd just write my own game. My imagination and writing >>> anything Bioware produces. That I play a game is for me a clear sign that I am not currently interested in inventing content for myself.

[Addai]

The Masked Rog wrote...

Not what I'm saying. In those cases you are influencing the NPCs through roleplaying you character. Definitely not controling them. What I mean is you should have to convince a NPC to wear a armor that isn't his style. For example, you shouldn't be able to give sten low quality armor. He should just pick one that better suited him from among the corpses of enemies.

You can't do that.  I mean, you could, but people don't want to play games like that.  They may say they do, but they don't.  Just look at the rage over the few times in DA that NPCs actually did go their own way.  Plus, the AI is stupid.  If you never changed their weapons or tactics, you'd be tearing your hair out.

It's still a game, and a roleplaying game.  I don't mind some free agency in NPCs that I don't have to see very often, but the party under my control is under my control.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

You can't do that.  I mean, you could, but people don't want to play games like that.  They may say they do, but they don't.

Yes I do.  Give me a Tactics-like system of indirect control, which could easily be described as "gameplanning" the same way a sports team draws up plays, practices them, and agrees to execute them when the time comes and I'll happily give up direct control. I never liked it.

Addai67 wrote...

Just look at the rage over the few times in DA that NPCs actually did go their own way.  Plus, the AI is stupid.  If you never changed their weapons or tactics, you'd be tearing your hair out.

Bad AI doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater, not from where I sit.

Edit: Also, I loved being challenged by the NPCs such as Sten and at the Urn and such.

Addai67 wrote...

It's still a game, and a roleplaying game.  I don't mind some free agency in NPCs that I don't have to see very often, but the party under my control is under my control.

That's the RPG you want and expect to play, fine. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 novembre 2010 - 01:15 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Addai67 wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

Not what I'm saying. In those cases you are influencing the NPCs through roleplaying you character. Definitely not controling them. What I mean is you should have to convince a NPC to wear a armor that isn't his style. For example, you shouldn't be able to give sten low quality armor. He should just pick one that better suited him from among the corpses of enemies.

You can't do that.  I mean, you could, but people don't want to play games like that.  They may say they do, but they don't.  Just look at the rage over the few times in DA that NPCs actually did go their own way.  Plus, the AI is stupid.  If you never changed their weapons or tactics, you'd be tearing your hair out.

It's still a game, and a roleplaying game.  I don't mind some free agency in NPCs that I don't have to see very often, but the party under my control is under my control.

I believe it could work so long as the NPC actually picks better armor all the time. Problem here is, AI in games generally lacks enough common sense to be trusted in such matters. Once the problem is overcome, I can't see why it wouldn't work.

[FedericoV]

crimzontearz wrote...

Well Federico I discovered Bioware through BG and MDK...althiugh BG never appealed to me very much because I never liked the forgotten realms as a setting (muchly preferred ravenloft)...muchto the dismay of my DND group Massimiliano + Marco who hated dealing with it

No...bioware is more the symbol of a gaming company whose producs I can and will play more than 100 hours each...only company that ever did that for me

Yep, I have the same relation with Bio games. It's the only company in the gaming market that I'm faithfull too and even if there are games that I liked more and games that I liked less, I never feel disappointed with them and I still preorder their games every time.

And honestly, I don't understand all that talk about chore gamers. In the 90's chore CRPG gamers valued more story, setting, quest design, scope of the gaming experience, choice and consequences and so on... inventory micromanagement, min maxing and focus on combat was considered as the territory of powergamer.

The real strenght of the BG series was the scope of its storytelling (at least for the times): even I do not love FR and prefer other old D&D setting (Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Darksun). But what was great about the BG saga was the scope of the story from the beginning to the end.

If I have to say something bad about last Bioware CRPGs (with the exception of DA:O) is that there is less space for choices that really affects the story and that the storydriven/cinematic approach makes the games too linear. That's something that was really good in DA:O and that I would really do not like to see "dumbed down" in DA2. Who cares if Isabella wears a bandana or an helmet + 3...

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Saibh wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Which is pretty much saying "I perfer the developers to decide for me" Which defeats the whole purpose of translating a tabletop party experience to a single player party based RPG.

Except, that's not what they're trying to do. Maybe that's how the genre started, but things change and evolve. It's an action RPG, they said as much. Tactics are staying. Party based gameplay is staying. I imagine BioWare to craft the fantastic characters and story they always do.

Not everyone is going to like DA2. You probably won't. I can no longer aesthetically change how my party member's appear but I can alter the stats and bonuses of their armor. I think the intention is, rather for party members to be my tools that have personalities when we talk in camp, they are always their own character, rather than when I want them to be. Case in point: Wynne the blood mage harping on and on about blood magic. Leliana being able to use a sword and shield without Talents as well as my hardened warriors.

Which one you, or any person, thinks is superior is probably irrelevant; this is the system they're going with.

If you call Mass Effect an evolution. I certainly don't but slowly as the info trickles out, it appears thats exactly what Dragon Age has become.

[FieryDove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bad AI doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater, not from where I sit.

Devs do it all the time...anything is fair game.

(mentioning as in all devs in all companies)

The Masked Rog wrote...
 It is just illogical that Sten has such a firm personality and then does as the player says as though he was just an extension of the player will.

When they develop AI that can think for themselves..."Hey, this armor is better than what I have I'll use it". Or " I will change my tactics in this battle since the enemies are different." Then
yes, by all means let the npc's do it. This goes for skills/talents etc. to many games with characters lvled or go ahead and try to use the auto level just make eyesroll...everywhere.
At least we won't be doing spacewalks or shuffling around vacum frozen planets with our npcs exposed ala ME2.
That was such a cool concept.