611 réponses à ce sujet

[Ympulse]

Continued from the podcast thread, in order to avoid locking.

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

No one is saying that the sexism against women doesn't exist. What is insulting here is that when a guy pipes up and says "well it's kind of sexist against men too" you all start rallying to tell us to shut up, that we've never lived through the issues that women have, that it's not the same thing, that we have no right to claim sexism against men. It's like you have a sense of entitlement. You have a right to complain. But we don't. We should just sit down and shut up.

Screw that.

If it's sexist against men, then darnit it is sexist against men. Acknowledge that, please. Is it as bad as the woman image? Maybe not. Is it applied the same way as the woman image? Maybe not. Has it been happening as long as the woman image? Maybe not. (that one is kind of debatable) I am more than willing to accept that the female image is sexualized and idealized and likely done so in a way that is often degrading to women. But you don't you tell me that I have never experienced sexism or that the imagery of men in games is not sexist.

Double standards are wrong.

I told you to shut up at least...eight times during this conversation, I recall.

I honestly don't think I'll get through to you any more than I could convince you that suicide isn't romantic. You probably aren't going to see it anyone else's way. I'm probably not going to see it yours. I--and many others--have explained the difference between the two. No one is saying that the version of male models isn't idealized unfairly.

But, the thing is it's not sexist, either. I don't like that word because it means that one sex believes the other is superior. This is a man's idea of what men should look like. The female models aren't sexist, either, but idealized unfairly.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:38 .

[Corker]

Try: What about the men?

[the_one_54321]

Saibh wrote...

I honestly don't think I'll get through to you any more than I could convince you that suicide isn't romantic.

And I thought I made it explicitly clear that I don't think suicide is romantic. In fact I remember saying twice in the same post, spcifically "I don't think suicide is romantic." But I'm the one refusing to see it anyone elses way?

Saibh wrote...

No one is saying that the version of male models isn't idealized unfairly.

Bogus. I was the first to say that the male body model was also unfair and the first several responses that came up were to the effect of "it's not the same," "if his glimmering chest isn't showing it's not the same," "the male is strong and confidant while the female is objectified." All of which implied that I had no right to complain about it. If women have the right to complain about the female body model then I have every right to complain about the male body model. It is equally objectifying. We are not all capable of body building our way up to superman stature.

[Ryzaki]

Oh. One I was comparing a big breasted woman for fanservice to being a glimmering man's chest. Get your facts straight. A female fighter running around with DDs with her ass hanging out is fanservice. Plain and simple.

I also agreed that the mage looking like he man was ridculous.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 novembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[the_one_54321]

That doesn't take away the implication that I had no right to complain.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

That doesn't take away the implication that I had no right to complain.

Yeah but you were trying to take away the focus from the problem by saying "Well X is wrong tooo!!!!!"

Then why not just say X was wrong as well instead of trying to downplay Y? 

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah but you were trying to take away the focus from the problem by saying "Well X is wrong tooo!!!!!"

Then why not just say X was wrong as well instead of trying to downplay Y?

Frankly I don't mind if they keep the idealizations. Wimpy mages and lithe rogues would certainly be cool too. But it's a video game. I don't actually want to see real people in it. I'm open to different stylizations.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah but you were trying to take away the focus from the problem by saying "Well X is wrong tooo!!!!!"

Then why not just say X was wrong as well instead of trying to downplay Y?

Frankly I don't mind if they keep the idealizations. Wimpy mages and lithe rogues would certainly be cool too. But it's a video game. I don't actually want to see real people in it. I'm open to different stylizations.

If you don't care there was no reason for you to comment and railroad the conversation. <_<

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
If you don't care there was no reason for you to comment and railroad the conversation. <_<

I didn't say that I don't care. I said I don't mind. What bothered me was that after just mentioned that the male archetype was just as present, everyone starts jumping on my back for it. That's a load of bull. What I said was not untrue in the slightest.

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I honestly don't think I'll get through to you any more than I could convince you that suicide isn't romantic.

And I thought I made it explicitly clear that I don't think suicide is romantic. In fact I remember saying twice in the same post, spcifically "I don't think suicide is romantic." But I'm the one refusing to see it anyone elses way?

Maybe I should say "under certain conditions you find suicide romantic". Those conditions being that it's fictional, and my understanding is that you're supposed to apply real world logic to the setting or else a little thing called "characterization" wouldn't exist.

Bogus. I was the first to say that the male body model was also unfair and the first several responses that came up were to the effect of "it's not the same," "if his glimmering chest isn't showing it's not the same," "the male is strong and confidant while the female is objectified." All of which implied that I had no right to complain about it. If women have the right to complain about the female body model then I have every right to complain about the male body model. It is equally objectifying. We are not all capable of body building our way up to superman stature.

Because it's not the same. We have explained how.

This is men idealizing men, and men idealizing women. Both come from a man's perspective. What people were objecting to was that you weren't understanding that women are being sexualized, but men are not. They are being idealized. That's still unfair, but not what was being talked about.

That's why it's not the same.

[Ryzaki]

Ah Saibh. You say what I want to but in a much more pleasant and understandable way.

[In Exile]

Saibh wrote...
This is a man's idea of what men should look like. The female models aren't sexist, either, but idealized unfairly.

Sorry, but I have to object to this.The beefcake look is how some men idealize the male figure. But not all men do. More importantly, the beefcake look didn't come into vogue until the 80s, really. Look at the difference between Rocky and Rocky III. I don't think what happened was that men just sat down and decided they needed another 30 pounds of muscle before they were True Men ™.

Sure, there are lots of men that really want to look like that. But there are lots of women who really want to look like a sex object. That isn't indicative of anything.

[the_one_54321]

Saibh wrote...
my understanding is that you're supposed to apply real world logic to the setting or else a little thing called "characterization" wouldn't exist.

I disagree entirely. Maintaining the suspension of disbelief is all that matters in fiction. The rest can be as completely made up as you want it to be.

Saibh wrote...
That's why it's not the same.

I never said it was the same thing. I just said that it was there in equal amounts. Idealization is idealization. Even if it's done in different ways.

[Marionetten]

Saibh wrote...

This is men idealizing men, and men idealizing women. Both come from a man's perspective. What people were objecting to was that you weren't understanding that women are being sexualized, but men are not. They are being idealized. That's still unfair, but not what was being talked about.

That's why it's not the same.

Right. Because men are never sexualized under any circumstance. It just doesn't happen. Nope, the idealized male form has always been a direct result of heterosexuel males admiring the physiques of other heterosexuel males. That women in general happen to prefer muscular men is pure and utter nonsense. No one is to blame for these unhealthy ideals but men.

[the_one_54321]

Marionetten wrote...
No one is to blame for these unhealthy ideals but men.

Apparently that's what a lot of people would like us to believe. It's all men's fault all the time. And then they wonder why some of us get upset about it.

[In Exile]

Corker wrote...

Try: What about the men?

From your link:

What it boils down to is this: Men, not women, need to be the ones
creating the spaces to discuss men’s issues.

As it turns out, it is men (I think) that are driving the discussion on this forum. I don't think any of us denied that what is going on with the female mesh is a good thing for women. Hell, I don't think anyone even tried to equivocate between the two.

But what we are saying is that this look does hurt. It does affect our self-esteem. It does feel like an unrealistic standard of beauty. So hey, maybe we don't get what it's like to be a woman, but we do get what it's like to me a man with an unrealistic standard pushed on us. And that sucks. And being told it isn't as bad is not a way to debate.

[In Exile]

Saibh wrote...

This is men idealizing men, and men idealizing women. Both come from a man's perspective. What people were objecting to was that you weren't understanding that women are being sexualized, but men are not. They are being idealized. That's still unfair, but not what was being talked about.

That's why it's not the same.

So if we can find some women that think women ought to look like the DA2 female mesh, then we can close the argument and say that it is actually the same thing, because women are idealizing women to be like that?

Of course not, because I'm sure your reply will be that many women think this because of the tremendous social pressure to do so. Well, it's quite the same for a lot of men.

Maybe some group of men somewhere decided that this is how all men should look - a marketing deparment somewhere, or a casting direction for 80s action flicks. But whoever made the call that men should look like that in the 80s, made that call not speaking for all men everywhere.

So saying that it's not the same thing because this is how men idealize men is nonsense, because it's not as if men are some monolithic hive-mind group.

Modifié par In Exile, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...
So hey, maybe we don't get what it's like to be a woman,

Right.

In Exile wrote...
but we do get what it's like to me a man with an unrealistic standard pushed on us.

Right.

In Exile wrote...
And that sucks.

Right.

In Exile wrote...
And being told it isn't as bad is not a way to debate.

And right again.

[Ryzaki]

But the whole thing was an attempt to marginalize people's issues with the female form!



Frankly I have some issues with the male form too but going "BUT X IS WRONG TOO!" when people were talking about something else is not the way to go about it. You just get people irritated at you and what you're trying to say.

[Saibh]

In Exile wrote...

Sorry, but I have to object to this.The beefcake look is how some men idealize the male figure. But not all men do. More importantly, the beefcake look didn't come into vogue until the 80s, really. Look at the difference between Rocky and Rocky III. I don't think what happened was that men just sat down and decided they needed another 30 pounds of muscle before they were True Men ™.

Sure, there are lots of men that really want to look like that. But there are lots of women who really want to look like a sex object. That isn't indicative of anything.

I have this problem with generalizing everyone. Even when I type things I can think of great examples of where this is not the case, but I usually just generalize with a "you" or "they".

I mean to say that you see movies and games and TV shows with beefcakes (honestly, that word is so...I mean, does anyone else get a little revolted imagining it?) that are made and marketed to men by men, and many of them feature gigantically muscular men. I don't mean to say this is true of all mens across the board.

Yes, women certainly find washboard abs sexy, too, but that's often a fortunate by-product for the female masses instead of an active pandering to.

BTW, when you said "Rocky" I thought this:

Marionetten wrote...

Saibh wrote...

This is men idealizing men, and men idealizing women. Both come from a man's perspective. What people were objecting to was that you weren't understanding that women are being sexualized, but men are not. They are being idealized. That's still unfair, but not what was being talked about.

That's why it's not the same.

Right. Because men are never sexualized under any circumstance. It just doesn't happen. Nope, the idealized male form has always been a direct result of heterosexuel males admiring the physiques of other heterosexuel males. That women in general happen to prefer muscular men is pure and utter nonsense. No one is to blame for these unhealthy ideals but men.

Re: Above.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[slimgrin]

Trust me, when it comes to female body types, I also want them to be convincing. That's why I've championed Aveline's and fem hawke's beefy pipes. They look like capable women. Where I veer from all the breast haters is that a D cup doesn't nullify what is otherwise an athletic physique. I've seen it in real life, most of us have, unless you happen to be very unobservant. (and no I'm not posting examples)



The other point I'd like to make is games are a visual medium so you're going to get some embellishment, and why not? They're allowed to idealize a bit and I personally feel Bioware uses greater moderation than most developers.

[Maria Caliban]

Corker wrote...

Try: What about the men?

"The thing is, a feminist space — unless the topic is specifically men’s issues — is not the place to have that discussion and neither are spaces (feminist or otherwise) in which the topic is specifically focused on women’s issues."

BioWare is not a 'feminist space.' That article is about going to a website about women's issues and continuously bringing up male issues.

[Saibh]

slimgrin wrote...

The other point I'd like to make is games are a visual medium so you're going to get some embellishment, and why not? They're allowed to idealize a bit and I personally feel Bioware uses greater moderation than most developers.

This is why I don't get out a soapbox about it or have discussions about it linked to my signature or whatever. I said earlier that the new female meshes aren't sexist, just idealized unfairly. This is why.

At the same time, it's not an embellishment I appreciate and it makes me feel marginalized as a gamer and my female characters undermined, for reasons I've discussed.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
But the whole thing was an attempt to marginalize people's issues with the female form!

Frankly I have some issues with the male form too but going "BUT X IS WRONG TOO!" when people were talking about something else is not the way to go about it. You just get people irritated at you and what you're trying to say.

Well the original point to get across is that it's just a video game and if you're willing to be flexible with what portrayals you find acceptable you could have a lot more fun with it. It's easier for men to let the image thing go, that's very true, but that's what blew up this whole thing here.

Consider that the women posters are constantly harping about the female body image being used. It comes up every single time a new pic of one of the female characters is posted. My initial comment was a reaction to this in that "hey we have to deal with it too" and for clarity I probably should have added "but isn't it best if we all just try to have fun with what's being givne to us here?" And that was my mistake for not including those thoughts.