611 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Yenaquai wrote...

But the problem here is, that this does not apply to one certain character, but to ALL female models we have
seen so far of the game. If Bioware releases some new screenshots which prove the difference, I am happy to accept I was wrong, and won't press the subject.

Do Cassandra and "FemHawke" have the same body model? I would assume so, because that's just efficiency of code, using the same animation structure, but it's hard to tell because they're well covered in body armour. They've chosen a  model that can be made overtly sexual or relatively reserved (in terms of related fiction) depending on external textures, rather than than create two seperate models, or having to find some other way to exaggerate the effect.

Plus, it can't really be a suprise that the images they're releasing as advertisements are of sex and violence, they have a game to sell after all.

Yenaquai wrote...
But here's the difference: Miranda in ME2 was sexualized, I don't think anyone would disagree. But that doesn't really bother me, because there still were plenty of other females who weren't.
Kasumi, Dr. Chakwas, Jack, female Shepard herself. Plus the default female model in ME is quite realistic and "natural"

I assume the games are built differently, that the roughly consistent size of the characters didn't limit the animation frame quite so much. I've not really studied them greatly, but I think it's more likely that it's an engine issue rather than any sort of statement upon female sexuality.

Yenaquai wrote...
Because I do not see the idea behind this exaggeration.

As above, if there is a single body model it's probably more to do with economics, allowing the exaggeration in some while making the concession in others. As to why it exists at all, as I say, it's effective shorthand for characterisation. Varric's neckline is exactly the same, it just doesn't have the knock on effect of constricting models.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[tmp7704]

slimgrin wrote...

Second one looks malnourished, decadent, and boring.

Second one looks malnourished despite her body being actually thicker overall and her waist being wider?

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Yenaquai wrote...

Plus: I found the thought a bit strange that the artdirection-team would create different body models for different narrated scenes just to change it back. Sounds like a lot of quite unnecessary work to me.

That was my train of thought as well, but its nice to know that the storytelling angle is getting the nuances it deserves. Varric's tale spinning is so masterful he affects the very priorities of game development!

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:15 .

[slimgrin]

DA comes out, and women run like linebackers and have no waist. Bioware trims the waist so they actually have hips like women do, increase the bust size...viola, a feminine and attractive figure. Not only that, they have varied the models: Aveline is muscular like a warrior should be, Bethany less so, because she is a mage. And Everyone hates it.



Now people complain how women run.

They want them to have a thicker waist.

Lets get rid of the breasts too.



Why don't we just give them ape arms and make them run line linebackers again. Should make everyone happy.

[JoHnDoE14]

slimgrin wrote...

DA comes out, and women run like linebackers and have no waist. Bioware trims the waist so they actually have hips like women do, increase the bust size...viola, a feminine and attractive figure. Not only that, they have varied the models: Aveline is muscular like a warrior should be, Bethany less so, because she is a mage. And Everyone hates it.

Now people complain how women run.
They want them to have a thicker waist.
Lets get rid of the breasts too.

Why don't we just give them ape arms and make them run line linebackers again. Should make everyone happy.

That post probably wins the day!

[upsettingshorts]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Just to drop in here, I find it interesting that no one ever stops to wonder if, perhaps, Varric were prone to exaggerating more than just facts about Hawke...

No one ever stops to wonder?  Hmm....

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Varric is a breast dwarf. He is exaggerating everyone's cup size. Perfect argument!

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Who says he stops exaggerating entirely at any point? 

Unreliable narrators can explain a lot.

Okay okay, if another narrator takes over then the argument is shot but hey, I enjoyed making it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[tmp7704]

slimgrin wrote...

DA comes out, and women run like linebackers and have no waist. Bioware trims the waist so they actually have hips like women do, increase the bust size...viola, a feminine and attractive figure. Not only that, they have varied the models: Aveline is muscular like a warrior should be, Bethany less so, because she is a mage. And Everyone hates it.

Now people complain how women run.
They want them to have a thicker waist.
Lets get rid of the breasts too.

Why don't we just give them ape arms and make them run line linebackers again. Should make everyone happy.

People are complaining because in their eyes BioWare have flipped from one extreme to the opposite of it. In other words they aren't crying to have the old extreme back, but to have visuals that land somewhere in the middle between these opposites.

For example, look at your own description -- "people complain about waists of the characters so Bioware trims the waist, increase the bust size". Why increase that bust size where it wasn't actually part of the complaints, or if anything the complaints were the busts could already be too large?

Restraint can be pretty helpful in getting results that wind up pleasing to larger group overall.

[pizoxuat]

slimgrin wrote...

SaberBloodwork wrote...

Yenaquai wrote...




Thoughts?

it looks MUCH better than the first picture. She seems healthier, still very attractive
and certainly more believable. I wish BW took your route instead of following
what other games are doing to the female characters’ models.

Second one looks malnourished, decadent, and boring. Not only her looks, but her character has suffered as well. I'm glad Bioware has their priorities together.

Edit: just read Laidlaw's post. Looks like the agenda for anemic figures has won. 

Beginning not to like the whole exaggeration bit.

I think she looks lovely, destitute, and lamp.  Seriously, could you have come up with three more disconnected descriptors there?

[g-vapen]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

SaberBloodwork wrote...

Yenaquai wrote...




Thoughts?

it looks MUCH better than the first picture. She seems healthier, still very attractive
and certainly more believable. I wish BW took your route instead of following
what other games are doing to the female characters’ models.

Just to drop in here, I find it interesting that no one ever stops to wonder if, perhaps, Varric were prone to exaggerating more than just facts about Hawke...

I suppose time will tell, but there might be a few surprises in store for the keen of eye.

Hah.  I guess it was a wise decision to withhold my judgement on Beth's 3 sizes after I saw more screenshots of her.

Not a bad retouch. As a personal preference though, I would prefer a middle ground between the first and second (reduce breast a little, increase hip and bust a little) or either a petite build (only reduce the bust size).

Modifié par g-vapen, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Clover Rider]

Yenaquai wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Yenaquai wrote...

But the problem here is, that this does not apply to one certain character, but to ALL female models we have
seen so far of the game. If Bioware releases some new screenshots which prove the difference, I am happy to accept I was wrong, and won't press the subject.

Do Cassandra and "FemHawke" have the same body model? I would assume so, because that's just efficiency of code, using the same animation structure, but it's hard to tell because they're well covered in body armour. They've chosen a  model that can be made overtly sexual or relatively reserved (in terms of related fiction) depending on external textures, rather than than create two seperate models, or having to find some other way to exaggerate the effect.

Plus, it can't really be a suprise that the images they're releasing as advertisements are of sex and violence, they have a game to sell after all.

Yenaquai wrote...
But here's the difference: Miranda in ME2 was sexualized, I don't think anyone would disagree. But that doesn't really bother me, because there still were plenty of other females who weren't.
Kasumi, Dr. Chakwas, Jack, female Shepard herself. Plus the default female model in ME is quite realistic and "natural"

I assume the games are built differently, that the roughly consistent size of the characters didn't limit the animation frame quite so much. I've not really studied them greatly, but I think it's more likely that it's an engine issue rather than any sort of statement upon female sexuality.

Yenaquai wrote...
Because I do not see the idea behind this exaggeration.

As above, if there is a single body model it's probably more to do with economics, allowing the exaggeration in some while making the concession in others. As to why it exists at all, as I say, it's effective shorthand for characterisation. Varric's neckline is exactly the same, it just doesn't have the knock on effect of constricting models.

Actually you do have a good point.
In the end I guess we will have to wait and see how the female models are handled. Keeping in mind what Mike suggested, that there are some exaggerations on Varric's side, and that the team adapted the ME2 - approach of outfits for Hawke's followers. (Which could lead to alterations of models, like in ME2)
Personally, I still find it ... sad that sexualisation means to reference this disformed interpretation of beauty. I wish it could be done differently.

It's hard to find any "art" that has humans look like humans=].

[Chuvvy]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I honestly don't think I'll get through to you any more than I could convince you that suicide isn't romantic.

And I thought I made it explicitly clear that I don't think suicide is romantic. In fact I remember saying twice in the same post, spcifically "I don't think suicide is romantic." But I'm the one refusing to see it anyone elses way?

Saibh wrote...
No one is saying that the version of male models isn't idealized unfairly.

Bogus. I was the first to say that the male body model was also unfair and the first several responses that came up were to the effect of "it's not the same," "if his glimmering chest isn't showing it's not the same," "the male is strong and confidant while the female is objectified." All of which implied that I had no right to complain about it. If women have the right to complain about the female body model then I have every right to complain about the male body model. It is equally objectifying. We are not all capable of body building our way up to superman stature.

I had a very similar conversation with her and a few others and I didn't get anywhere. Don't bother man.

[upsettingshorts]

She has a point.  And you don't need to be a woman to see it.

The masculine ideal of beauty is utilitarian. Form and function in harmony so to speak.

The feminine ideal of beauty is entirely sexual. Form and function are more distinctly separated.

A rather clumsy analogy would be to point to the culture around dog breeding and judging. The standards by which purebreds are evaluated at events like the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show have everything to do with fitting into certain aesthetic expectations and have nothing at all to do with how well their body works, or how healthy their shape is. That isn't to equate women and purebred dogs, but to draw a comparison between the issue of the conflict between body image and health and how women must feel sometimes about cultural standards of beauty.

Okay, so beauty pagents are kind of similar to dog shows but that's not the point. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[ENolan]

Bio Addict wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

But what do you consider 'moderate' breast size? It ranges from like, averaging B in east asian countries, to like DD in Great Britain.

The average breast size is DD in Great Britain?  What a country!!

Why do I have a feeling that Lara Croft really tipped that scale?

[Maria Caliban]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Just to drop in here, I find it interesting that no one ever stops to wonder if, perhaps, Varric were prone to exaggerating more than just facts about Hawke...

People *have* wondered just that.

[Maria Caliban]

pizoxuat wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Second one looks malnourished, decadent, and boring. Not only her looks, but her character has suffered as well. I'm glad Bioware has their priorities together.

Edit: just read Laidlaw's post. Looks like the agenda for anemic figures has won. 

Beginning not to like the whole exaggeration bit.

I think she looks lovely, destitute, and lamp.  Seriously, could you have come up with three more disconnected descriptors there?

You took my response! Random Word Generator says she looks "selfish, unsatisfactory, and ludicrous."

[slimgrin]

I think Bioware just wants to put sexy looking women in their game, and no doubt they feel comfortable doing so because personalities are the real focus, not cleavage.



Although cleavage is always nice.

[Saibh]

Slidell505 wrote...

I had a very similar conversation with her and a few others and I didn't get anywhere. Don't bother man.

...Except we reached an agreement where we saw that we were coming into a misunderstanding. I see that you did not read the thread.

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Just to drop in here, I find it interesting that no one ever stops to wonder if, perhaps, Varric were prone to exaggerating more than just facts about Hawke...

I suppose time will tell, but there might be a few surprises in store for the keen of eye.

Sure we did (I thought it might be hilarious), a lot of guys and gals thought that after seeing that shot of Bethany--but we thought about it, and consensus was that we have seen Bethany's, Lady Hawke's, Mama Hawke's, and Isabela's models before and after (or just after), and that the exaggeration had ended but the models didn't change.

If this "exaggeration" continues until the framed narrative stops, that would mean you have to have armor models ready for any armor we could possibly equip ready for a smaller model, which...seems unlikely.

If I'm wrong, though, I'll be elated.

Dundalis wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't think the objection boils down to "women like that don't exist" but that they shouldn't be used as the model for every woman in the game.

I was responding more posts that were saying it was completely unrealistic to have a body with those dimensions, one of them giving a comparison to Pamela Anderson, and basically saying it's not physiologically possible.

I agree having them as the model for everyone in the game is unrealistic, but then isn't that more a engine limitation, whatever base model is used is likely to be the same for all. Unless they want to go down the route of providing a unique body type for every single different character in the game. I'm no programmer though, so I got no idea if that's feasible.

That's your hyperbole, not mine (unless I was being inconsistent, but I'm a woman and I reserve that right! /leliana): I've said a few times that it's simply an extremely rare body type. It's only so prevalent because the great majority of the time, it's fake. And that the fact that every woman in Thedas has it is unbelievable and unreal. I just don't add that addendum every single time I post, but maybe I should, eh?

The point of comparing the DA2 body model to Ivy Valentine and Pamela Anderson, is that they're both very recognizable as having over-the-top bodies that one-in-a-million women have. And yet, in DA2, they're on par with one, and much bigger than the other. If we see her body type more and more, it's because woman with those kinds of bodies have a golden ticket to being photographed and Hollywood (nothing wrong with that, I should add) and/or that women can buy themselves those bodies.

The answer to not having a variety of bodies in Thedas is to not make the one body they chose the highly sexualized and idealized version. I liked ME1, DAO and ME2 in terms of bodies and fanservice (excusing egregious ass-shots). Obviously other people did, too--those game's did a bit well, if I recall correctly.

Modifié par Saibh, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Saibh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

She has a point.  And you don't need to be a woman to see it.

The masculine ideal of beauty is utilitarian. Form and function in harmony so to speak.

The feminine ideal of beauty is entirely sexual. Form and function are more distinctly separated.

A rather clumsy analogy would be to point to the culture around dog breeding and judging. The standards by which purebreds are evaluated at events like the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show have everything to do with fitting into certain aesthetic expectations and have nothing at all to do with how well their body works, or how healthy their shape is. That isn't to equate women and purebred dogs, but to draw a comparison between the issue of the conflict between body image and health and how women must feel sometimes about cultural standards of beauty.

Okay, so beauty pagents are kind of similar to dog shows but that's not the point. 

I'm so sure you just called me a Chow-Chow. There must be something about this in the Terms and Conditions agreement...

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

I'm so sure you just called me a Chow-Chow. There must be something about this in the Terms and Conditions agreement...

The most insulting insult since insults were invented.

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I'm so sure you just called me a Chow-Chow. There must be something about this in the Terms and Conditions agreement...

The most insulting insult since insults were invented.

How insulting!

[upsettingshorts]

Saibh wrote...
I'm so sure you just called me a Chow-Chow.

Just my type.  Let me (pictured) buy you a drink:

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

All joking aside that was an excellent post from Ser Shorts

[ENolan]

Saibh wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I'm so sure you just called me a Chow-Chow. There must be something about this in the Terms and Conditions agreement...

The most insulting insult since insults were invented.

How insulting!

What if we consider Chow-Chows adorable?

[Adanu]

SaberBloodwork wrote...

Yenaquai wrote...




Thoughts?

it looks MUCH better than the first picture. She seems healthier, still very attractive
and certainly more believable. I wish BW took your route instead of following
what other games are doing to the female characters’ models.

YOu know the saddest thing about that retouch? That people think "bigger breasts' means 'unhealthy in this thread. Not only are there plenty of women with F cups, but it's a FRIGGING FANTASY VIDEO GAME PEOPLE.

Modifié par Adanu, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .