611 réponses à ce sujet

[Aigyl]

Saibh wrote...
Yes, women certainly find washboard abs sexy, too, but that's often a fortunate by-product for the female masses instead of an active pandering to.

But the reason the idealised male beefcake is apired to is because it is percieved to be sexy to females isn't it? The reason men aspire to have giant muscles is because they are generally attractive to women, not because men find them appealing to look at.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
But the whole thing was an attempt to marginalize people's issues with the female form!

Frankly I have some issues with the male form too but going "BUT X IS WRONG TOO!" when people were talking about something else is not the way to go about it. You just get people irritated at you and what you're trying to say.

Well the original point to get across is that it's just a video game and if you're willing to be flexible with what portrayals you find acceptable you could have a lot more fun with it. It's easier for men to let the image thing go, that's very true, but that's what blew up this whole thing here.

Consider that the women posters are constantly harping about the female body image being used. It comes up every single time a new pic of one of the female characters is posted. My initial comment was a reaction to this in that "hey we have to deal with it too" and for clarity I probably should have added "but isn't it best if we all just try to have fun with what's being givne to us here?" And that was my mistake for not including those thoughts.

Regardless the male being idealized doesn't stop the female form from looking any more ridculous.

She (Isabela) isn't even wearing any pants for pete's sake. <_< How the hell is that not fanservice? 

[Dave of Canada]

Aigyl wrote...

But the reason the idealised male beefcake is apired to is because it is percieved to be sexy to females isn't it?

Not really, it's idealised because men find it badass.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Maria Caliban]

slimgrin wrote...

The other point I'd like to make is games are a visual medium so you're going to get some embellishment, and why not? They're allowed to idealize a bit and I personally feel Bioware uses greater moderation than most developers.

The issue is that the 'embellishment' isn't to make female players identify with their characters and see them as being cool or awesome. It's for males to find attractive.

It's the male gaze and it is sexist.

[In Exile]

Saibh wrote...

I have this problem with generalizing everyone. Even when I type things I can think of great examples of where this is not the case, but I usually just generalize with a "you" or "they".

I mean to say that you see movies and games and TV shows with beefcakes (honestly, that word is so...I mean, does anyone else get a little revolted imagining it?) that are made and marketed to men by men, and many of them feature gigantically muscular men. I don't mean to say this is true of all mens across the board.

Well, this is a chicken and egg problem, though.

It's certainly true that the majority of executives in film and marketing today are men. So insofar as those executives are driving the unrealistic standards of beauty, you're 100% right. The thing is, your argument (philosophically) is more fundamental than that.

What you're claiming is that when most men (if not all men) sit down to imagine their honest ideal for themselves, it is to be tall, and large, and muscular. And that's an incredibly complicated claim to make, and the fact that there is a gender imbalance in the media isn't sufficient.

As for shows marketed to men by men - not all of the guys are beefcakes. Let me give you some examples:

• 2 1/2 men has Charlie Seen as some hedonistic icon sleeping with beauties left and right. He is no beefcake.
• The King of Queens has an overweight man with a beautiful trophy wife
• According to Jim follows the same formula

And as one counter-example I can think of:

• Brothers & Sisters ( my ex-gf was really into this show) basically has OK looking actresses with beefcakes all around them

Yes, the male standard of beauty is the tal, chiseled Adonis. But that isn't the only body type shown on TV even, for shows designed to draw in a large male audience.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
She (Isabela) isn't even wearing any pants for pete's sake. <_< How the hell is that not fanservice?

Well yeah, I don't disagree with you there at all. But it looks really cool, doesn't it? There's a lot of female posters that have said they really like it.

[Short Fuse Burining]

Saibh wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

No one is saying that the sexism against women doesn't exist. What is insulting here is that when a guy pipes up and says "well it's kind of sexist against men too" you all start rallying to tell us to shut up, that we've never lived through the issues that women have, that it's not the same thing, that we have no right to claim sexism against men. It's like you have a sense of entitlement. You have a right to complain. But we don't. We should just sit down and shut up.

Screw that.

If it's sexist against men, then darnit it is sexist against men. Acknowledge that, please. Is it as bad as the woman image? Maybe not. Is it applied the same way as the woman image? Maybe not. Has it been happening as long as the woman image? Maybe not. (that one is kind of debatable) I am more than willing to accept that the female image is sexualized and idealized and likely done so in a way that is often degrading to women. But you don't you tell me that I have never experienced sexism or that the imagery of men in games is not sexist.

Double standards are wrong.

I told you to shut up at least...eight times during this conversation, I recall.

I honestly don't think I'll get through to you any more than I could convince you that suicide isn't romantic. You probably aren't going to see it anyone else's way. I'm probably not going to see it yours. I--and many others--have explained the difference between the two. No one is saying that the version of male models isn't idealized unfairly.

But, the thing is it's not sexist, either. I don't like that word because it means that one sex believes the other is superior. This is a man's idea of what men should look like. The female models aren't sexist, either, but idealized unfairly.

my gf kicked me out of my own apartment that's sexiest.

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well the original point to get across is that it's just a video game and if you're willing to be flexible with what portrayals you find acceptable you could have a lot more fun with it. It's easier for men to let the image thing go, that's very true, but that's what blew up this whole thing here.

Consider that the women posters are constantly harping about the female body image being used. It comes up every single time a new pic of one of the female characters is posted. My initial comment was a reaction to this in that "hey we have to deal with it too" and for clarity I probably should have added "but isn't it best if we all just try to have fun with what's being givne to us here?" And that was my mistake for not including those thoughts.

But that fact that it pertains to men as well is sort of inconsequential to what is being talked about. What was being talked about was the female meshes, not the male meshes. The male meshes don't justify the female meshes, and vice versa. You took the spirit of the topic into a different context and it feels like you tried to subvert it that way. Even if you didn't, constantly bringing up "the men are idealized!" isn't the point. I think the issue was, is I read your posts as "the men are idealized, so it's fair that the women are, so deal with it!" even if it was wrong of me.

Sure they are. Not in the same way. Not in a sexist fashion. There are also sound arguments for why the idealization of men is more justifiable and at least makes sense than what goes for the idealization for women.

Short Fuse Burining wrote...

my gf kicked me out of my own apartment that's sexiest.

Indeed, that's the sexiest thing I've heard of.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
She (Isabela) isn't even wearing any pants for pete's sake. <_< How the hell is that not fanservice?

Well yeah, I don't disagree with you there at all. But it looks really cool, doesn't it? There's a lot of female posters that have said they really like it.

The boots

which could be included with pants.

...and if those boots have heels its going to be Miranda's heels leading to me facepalming all over again. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[Maverick827]

As a guy, I don't idealize the male body as physically fit so much as I find it more practical.  There is quite literally no detriments to being physically fit and it is entirely logical for even a mage or rogue to be in such shape.  While the option to have a smaller body for a frail mage would be nice, we're not talking about options; we're talking about who is pigeonholed into what.

As a guy, I don't idealize the female body as small yet large breasted precisely because it is impractical and illogical when used as a blanket for all women.  Unlike men, there are large detriments to being built this way, and it is extremely rare to be so in the first place.  It is much more unrealistic, and that is what I disagree with.  I also disagree that such proportions are optimal even from an attraction standpoint, but why the hell would I talk about that on BioWare forums?

Edit: "Sexist" as a term refers to the systematic oppression of one gender by another gender of a higher social standing.  That is to say, it is a male of power oppressing a female of no power, or a female of power oppressing a male of no power.  Two genders in equal power simply saying bigoted things towards one another is not sexism.  Any words or ideas which are not enforced by a certain amount of power are not sexist.

Modifié par Maverick827, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The issue is that the 'embellishment' isn't to make female players identify with their characters and see them as being cool or awesome. It's for males to find attractive.

It's the male gaze and it is sexist.

That was an interesting read. I wonder if it would be possible to investigate this as a psychological tendency while looking at character creation in RPGs. I know some men say they prefer female PCs because "they'd rather not stare at a man all the time," and frankly that was always something that creeped me out a bit.

[the_one_54321]

Saibh wrote...
You took the spirit of the topic into a different context and it feels like you tried to subvert it that way. Even if you didn't, constantly bringing up "the men are idealized!" isn't the point. I think the issue was, is I read your posts as "the men are idealized, so it's fair that the women are, so deal with it!" even if it was wrong of me.

Sure they are. Not in the same way. Not in a sexist fashion. There are also sound arguments for why the idealization of men is more justifiable and at least makes sense than what goes for the idealization for women.

Ok, cool. But honestly, most of us can't be superman, or even a football linebacker no matter how much we work out. and I seriously cannot grow a beard. That bit wasn't humor. Well... maybe a little, but I really can't grow a beard.

[Marionetten]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aigyl wrote...

But the reason the idealised male beefcake is apired to is because it is percieved to be sexy to females isn't it?

Not really, it's idealised because men find it badass.

No. It's idealized because the alpha male is viewed as the guy who gets all the chicks. Aigyl was completely right.

There are plenty of scrawny yet badass characters.

[Short Fuse Burining]

[inappropriate comment removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
The boots

which could be included with pants.

...and if those boots have heels its going to be Miranda's heels leading to me facepalming all over again. <_<

I know that I've seen at least one girl say that she thought the whole outfit was cool...

[Maria Caliban]

the_one_54321 wrote...

That doesn't take away the implication that I had no right to complain.

You have a right to complain and others have the right to tell you that your complaint is off base and an attempt to redirect the conversation from issues that concern female gamers to issues that concern you.

Aigyl wrote...

But the reason the idealised male beefcake is apired to is because it is percieved to be sexy to females isn't it?

This presumes that the average straight woman finds beefcake sexy. However, the 'beefcake' market is mostly gay men. Images marketed to women tend to feature leaner men.

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The boots

which could be included with pants.

...and if those boots have heels its going to be Miranda's heels leading to me facepalming all over again. <_<

I know that I've seen at least one girl say that she thought the whole outfit was cool...

And there are women who draw images of tentacles raping schoolgirls. Your point?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The boots

which could be included with pants.

...and if those boots have heels its going to be Miranda's heels leading to me facepalming all over again. <_<

I know that I've seen at least one girl say that she thought the whole outfit was cool...

Well that one girl. And frankly that outfit leaves her vulnerable in several ways.

IF Dude Hawke can run around in just pants though...I'll be pleased.

[Dave of Canada]

Marionetten wrote...

No. It's idealized because the alpha male is viewed as the guy who gets all the chicks. Aigyl was completely right.

Gears of War has it and they don't have the characters "get all the chicks", yet you often hear about how badass everybody is.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[Saibh]

In Exile wrote...

Well, this is a chicken and egg problem, though.

It's certainly true that the majority of executives in film and marketing today are men. So insofar as those executives are driving the unrealistic standards of beauty, you're 100% right. The thing is, your argument (philosophically) is more fundamental than that.

What you're claiming is that when most men (if not all men) sit down to imagine their honest ideal for themselves, it is to be tall, and large, and muscular. And that's an incredibly complicated claim to make, and the fact that there is a gender imbalance in the media isn't sufficient.

[cut examples]

I'm not denying that they exist, at all. I'm simply arguing that women who make films and TV for other women rarely sexualize the female's bodies to the degree DA2 has unless it's to make a point. Even men who market things to women won't do that.

What I'm saying is that the men are making the men look good--to them. It works out that it looks good to women as well. And the women are made to look good to them, as well, rather than appealing to both men and women. I mean, can you say that Morrigan wasn't meant to be eye candy? Even Miranda is pretty proportionate--she simply wears very tight clothes and certainly is very curvaceous, but she's not at the extreme proportions of Isabela or Bethany. There's a medium here, and it can be reached.

Whoops, there with the generalization again. Please, I promise I'm not trying.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 novembre 2010 - 07:26 .

[the_one_54321]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Gears of War has it and they don't have the characters "get all the chicks", yet you often hear about how badass everybody is.

Gears of War was so overloaded with testosterone that I'm surprised that wasn't a spate of middle school boys spontanteously entering puberty early.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
Well that one girl. And frankly that outfit leaves her vulnerable in several ways.

One might argue that Isabela would prefer it that way? 

[slimgrin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

The other point I'd like to make is games are a visual medium so you're going to get some embellishment, and why not? They're allowed to idealize a bit and I personally feel Bioware uses greater moderation than most developers.

The issue is that the 'embellishment' isn't to make female players identify with their characters and see them as being cool or awesome. It's for males to find attractive.

It's the male gaze and it is sexist.

This point can too easily be turned on its head. What about man hawke? Why is he so handsome? 

Its an unavoidable fact that most gamers are male, and they are going to cater to that. I just can't believe they are getting so much flack when you have stuff like this out there in other games:


http://t1.gstatic.co...j802vFQLME83fY=


For the record, I happen to like Chun li's costume as well. 

[the_one_54321]

Unsurprisingly, I find that post completely biased and inaccurate.