176 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...
You're an intimidating bunch.

I know you're joking but hey, sometimes I like being "serious" in response to jokes.

The Bioware writers, intimidating?  Worst they can do is ban people.  When I get banned on a forum I either shrug and go make a sandwich or go visit one of the billion other sites on the internet.

Well, that and they can write dialogue like FemShep and Jacob's.  That level of awkwardness is painful.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 12:59 .

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
Seriously, the whole Jacob Taylor romance is one of the prime examples of why the voiced protagonist doesn't always work out so well- really, why voiced PC romances in general just give off a very creepy vibe.

I don't think that's an issue with the voiced protaganist. The lines would have been much the same had they been unvoiced, I think. It sounds more like an discrepancy between the writer's take on the romance and what you (or I) might have preferred. That's going to happen in just about any romance writing.

[In Exile]

JohnEpler wrote...

As someone who works with the writing extensively but is not, themselves, a writer - I can say that I find the writing in DA2 to be pretty fantastic. Particularly since my job involves 'how do I take this writing and make the visuals do it justice'.

The answer, always, is crash zooms and hitchcock zooms. You guys like those, right? RIGHT?

Regarding the cinematics, how does the focus work in different scenes? Is the Hawke the focus of each shot (even if we change the angle)? Will the camera shift from Hawke to the other speaker in dialogue, or feature them both? Or is this a question so generic you can't possibly answer?

[In Exile]

Saibh wrote...
I do see the argument that he's saying Miranda's too high maintenance for him. The actual line is "She requires a better man than I." Whether he's being self-deprecating or if he's saying politely that she's a megab1tch isn't clear. But it's said so ruefully and regretfully that it just doesn't seem that way.

I just can't see the line as something other than a throw-away designed to fellate the greatness that is M Shep, with nary a thought given to how F Shep would take the line. Maybe because I can't understand how "She requires a better man than I" could possibly suggest anything negative about the other person.

[slimgrin]

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Oh. Well, that explains it-- I never did the Jacob romance. Started it, but it felt a little too "sexually harass the subordinate" for my tastes.

Even so, I don't see what's so bad about it.

I think you pretty much nailed it, David. It felt too... forceful, where FemShep was ready to pounce on Jacob at any moment.

It is pretty bad, made worse by the fact the other romances are well done.

[DarkSpiral]

JohnEpler wrote...

As someone who works with the writing extensively but is not, themselves, a writer - I can say that I find the writing in DA2 to be pretty fantastic. Particularly since my job involves 'how do I take this writing and make the visuals do it justice'.

The answer, always, is crash zooms and hitchcock zooms. You guys like those, right? RIGHT?

...what is a hitchcock zoom?

[David Gaider]

slimgrin wrote...
It is pretty bad, made worse by the fact the other romances are well done.

Meh. Romances are never going to appeal to everyone. I got the start of it, shrugged, and moved on to another romance I liked more. I'm not sure what the big deal is-- I'm sure some people liked it, after all.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
You're an intimidating bunch.

I know you're joking but hey, sometimes I like being serious in response to jokes.

I'm not joking.

The Bioware writers, intimidating?  Worst they can do is ban people.  When I get banned on a forum I either shrug and go make a sandwich or go visit one of the billion other sites on the internet.

I'm not sure how successful that is as a serious answer as it seems flippant.

For one thing, I've been part of the BioWare community since *checks* Jun 2002. I mean, sure, if I regarded human relations as cheap and a community I'd interacted with for 8 years as a disposable commodity that could be easily replaced, a ban would be meaningless, but what is the likelihood that's the case?

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
I don't think that's an issue with the voiced protaganist. The lines would have been much the same had they been unvoiced, I think. It sounds more like an discrepancy between the writer's take on the romance and what you (or I) might have preferred. That's going to happen in just about any romance writing.

Well I think thats the sticking point with it, especially with the romances. If you read the full text of the line in your head you can affix any type of intonation as you like, yet in ME2's case, maybe you thought the paraphrase would lead to something more subtle with FemShep yet you get bludgeoned over the head with her practically mauling Jacob. Part of the problem there was that you started with just a simple dialogue paraphrase which, unbeknownst to the player when they made that paraphrase choice, led to FemShep attacking Jacob.

I get that the reaction from the NPC would be scripted one way, voiced PC or not, but in FemShep's case it was off-putting as she reacted in a way that you as the player had no clue or control over tone wise and then it led into an action which you also had no control over. Maybe thats ok with ME and its more detatched narrative style, but I never had to worry about my Warden going rogue and molesting any party members.

Slight romance related question- its been mentioned we'll have some sort of romance icon to denote romance lines, but does that mean we're limited to basically one type of romance line? Or are there snarky, suave or gruff romance lines too?

Modifié par Brockololly, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:08 .

[slimgrin]

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
It is pretty bad, made worse by the fact the other romances are well done.

Meh. Romances are never going to appeal to everyone. I got the start of it, shrugged, and moved on to another romance I liked more. I'm not sure what the big deal is-- 

Delivery. And the lines themselves seem out of character, like the writers just finished watching Shaft and were inspired by it.

No matter. You guys still do romance and characters better than anyone else in the industry.

~edit for clarity~

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[blothulfur]

Will we get british romance lines such as jolly nice weather what, time for tiffin and of course the old romantic take your teeth out and brace yourself nora.

[Maria Caliban]

DarkSpiral wrote...

...what is a hitchcock zoom?

It's where you zoom in or out while changing the field of view so the subject is the same size. So your brain says 'I'm moving away from/towards' X but your eyes say 'X has remained the same size.'

It's meant to lead to a perceptual vertigo, and was first used in the film Vertigo.

link

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm not joking.

I'm not sure how successful that is as a serious answer as it seems flippant.

For one thing, I've been part of the BioWare community since *checks* Jun 2002. I mean, sure, if I regarded human relations as cheap and a community I'd interacted with for 8 years as a disposable commodity that could be easily replaced, a ban would be meaningless, but what is the likelihood that's the case?

I suppose I can see the distinction. I've always viewed membership in online communities as distinctly different from offline ones, to the point that it is dangerously easy to start substituting the former for the latter. So I always try to maintain something of a distance between myself and my attachment to online communities. It's a conscious choice that I feel I need to make personally, and not something I feel works or is even necessary for everyone.

And yeah, I was totally being flippant. But I am genuinely surprised you were being serious. Writers don't strike me as "intimidating" until they start being socially provocative in their works.  And then, it depends on your perspective whether that is admirable and inspiring or dangerous and irresponsible.

David Gaider wrote...

Meh. Romances are never going to appeal to everyone. I got the start of it, shrugged, and moved on to another romance I liked more. I'm not sure what the big deal is-- I'm sure some people liked it, after all.

Yeah, I think we understand. But the point with the Jacob romance is that he - well, more accurately the relationship between him and FemShep - seemed to appeal to very few people. Does that not strike you as a failure of execution at some level?

slimgrin wrote...

No matter. You guys still do romance and characters better than anyone else in the industry.

All the above being said, this is still very true.  It's mostly highlighted because it stands our for its poor quality when compared to other Bioware romances.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
It is pretty bad, made worse by the fact the other romances are well done.

Meh. Romances are never going to appeal to everyone. I got the start of it, shrugged, and moved on to another romance I liked more. I'm not sure what the big deal is-- I'm sure some people liked it, after all.

I know it sounds pretty terrible to generalize it, but...very few people did. Most people at least agree that, while they might have liked him/tolerated him/not hated him as a character, his romance was awful.

I really think that Jacob's romance is executed terribly. In theory, it's a good idea--a non-angst filled romance with a normal guy. But it was a combination of a number of factors that did it in--no small part in the writing, either. It's cringe-worthy. And it sticks out because Jacob is otherwise a very boring character. I don't feel much about him, except when it comes to the romance. And then it's nothing good.

It's not like it was an abomination, but I do hope the teams look at his romance for examples of what went wrong and didn't work, and grow from it.

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
I get that the reaction from the NPC would be scripted one way, voiced PC or not, but in FemShep's case it was off-putting as she reacted in a way that you as the player had no clue or control over tone wise and then it led into an action which you also had no control over. Maybe thats ok with ME and its more detatched narrative style, but I never had to worry about my Warden going rogue and molesting any party members.

I suppose, though there I think we're heading into Sylvius-level arguments about roleplaying and such, who's doing the writing, yadda yadda yadda. I don't see much of a difference myself, and even in a case like the Jacob romance where the difference might be more pronounced I still personally like to be able to hear both sides of the conversation.

One can dislike cinematic dialogue if they wish, but I personally see less value in going half-way down that route-- which we did in Origins. Either it's cinematic or it's not. There are advantages and disadvantages in any implementation, but this is the one we've chosen for DA2 at any rate.

Slight romance related question- its been mentioned we'll have some sort of romance icon to denote romance lines, but does that mean we're limited to basically one type of romance line? Or are there snarky, suave or gruff romance lines too?

It depends on the line in question. Most often there's a single romance-oriented line, unless you're in the middle of romance-specific dialogue (as in the entire dialogue is part of the romance) in which case the regular dialogue implementation applies.

Modifié par David Gaider, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[upsettingshorts]

Saibh wrote...

I know it sounds pretty terrible to generalize it, but...very few people did. Most people at least agree that, while they might have liked him/tolerated him/not hated him as a character, his romance was awful.

Indeed, my ManShep liked the guy.  Woulda loved to have gotten a beer at the Citadel with him.  His "stability" (read: blandness to some) was a refreshing change.  In general I'm a big fan of his character, he's a mature, level headed, and thoughtful individual who has doubts about what he's doing but has dealt with his conflicts in an adult way.  If he was a real person I would label him a pleasure  to work with. 

David Gaider wrote...
One can dislike cinematic dialogue if they like, but I personally see less value in going half-way down that route-- which we did in Origins.

Coincidentally that's the approach I dislike the most.  If some characters talk, all characters should talk.  And vice versa. The lack of consistency kills my immersion no matter if its The Warden or Gordon Freeman.  Still, the concept of immersion varies from person to person, and everyone can't be pleased all the time.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:32 .

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Yeah, I think we understand. But the point with the Jacob romance is that he - well, more accurately the relationship between him and FemShep - seemed to appeal to very few people. Does that not strike you as a failure of execution at some level?

Not really, no-- unless you think we should be taking the pronouncements of the people on these forums as the final word on the matter? We learn something from every romance we do (or at least I have), good or bad, but either way I'm not liable to label anything a failure just because the hardcore on the forums have rendered a collective opinion.

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...
Not really, no-- unless you think we should be taking the pronouncements of the people on these forums as the final word on the matter? We learn something from every romance we do (or at least I have), good or bad, but either way I'm not liable to label anything a failure just because the hardcore on the forums have rendered a collective opinion.

That's fair, still, thought I'd ask.

[Rattleface]

David Gaider wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Yeah, I think we understand. But the point with the Jacob romance is that he - well, more accurately the relationship between him and FemShep - seemed to appeal to very few people. Does that not strike you as a failure of execution at some level?

Not really, no-- unless you think we should be taking the pronouncements of the people on these forums as the final word on the matter? We learn something from every romance we do (or at least I have), good or bad, but either way I'm not liable to label anything a failure just because the hardcore on the forums have rendered a collective opinion.

How's that Flemeth romance going anyways?

[upsettingshorts]

Rattleface wrote...
How's that Flemeth romance going anyways?

Just because those threads are long doesn't mean everyone posting in them is signing off on the idea.  Quite the opposite, it seems.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Rattleface]

Maric got to romance her.

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Just because those threads are long doesn't mean everyone posting in them is signing off on the idea.  Quite the opposite, it seems.

My experience with long threads says that most of them are the result of a handful of people who refuse to let something go while everyone else argues with them. Occasionally that's not the case, but most often it is. We're not fooled.

Unless someone really thinks a scenario occurs where Mary runs into Mike's office going, "Oh no! There's a 100-page thread complaining about something!"

"Egad! We must get on that right away!"

Unlikely.

[Maria Caliban]

I'm playing Fallout: NV and I find the unvoiced protagonist works better in first person view. No shots of your PC silently staring with little to no expression on their face.

David Gaider wrote...

Not really, no-- unless you think we should be taking the pronouncements of the people on these forums as the final word on the matter?

I think you've come upon the one idea that no one on this forum would object to.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:43 .

[upsettingshorts]

Heh, one of the most universally favorable threads I've been a part of was mine suggesting that Bioware do some behind the scenes videos like Lionhead did with Fable 2. The only objection raised was that borrowing anything from Lionhead was asking for trouble. And I'm pretty sure that thread is on page 20 or something by now.

Well, and then there's the Varric thread. But that's something of it's own animal, isn't it?

/grumbles something about sustaining a 12-page thread on GameFAQs defending Anora by himself

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:44 .

[Bullets McDeath]

I have it from a very reliable source the writing in DA2 will feature more exclamation points. Apparently the periods and semicolons from Origins were a bit slow for some and needed some hot rod samurai flavor.