176 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

I thought FO:NV was lovely-- but it's a very different kind of game from what we're making (or what we make). Thankfully there's room for both.

It was also amusing in that the longer you played the more quest-killing scripting bugs you ran across! FIND THEM ALL!

But that's something to annoy the Obsidian developers with, not the Bioware ones.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:25 .

[ErichHartmann]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I thought FO:NV was lovely-- but it's a very different kind of game from what we're making (or what we make). Thankfully there's room for both.

It was also amusing in that the longer you played the more quest-killing scripting bugs you ran across! FIND THEM ALL!

But that's something to annoy the Obsidian developers with, not the Bioware ones.

My only real gripe with New Vegas is the random crashing.  Can't say I have come across any bugs ruining a quest 40 hours in. 

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

If only Bethesda had considered this obvious little fact when making Oblivion.

You can play Oblivion in third person.

But you can't talk to NPCs in the third person.

Do you usually talk to people while engaging in combat?

ErichHartmann wrote...

My only real gripe with New Vegas is the random crashing.  Can't say I have come across any bugs ruining a quest 40 hours in. 

Have you gone to Vault 11 and then returned to the Strip?

Also, if you haven't already, when you get the house on the Strip, stand in front of the north gate and order ED-E to go home. That one's sort of funny.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[In Exile]

David Gaider wrote...

I thought FO:NV was lovely-- but it's a very different kind of game from what we're making (or what we make). Thankfully there's room for both.

What New Vegas lacks, and what I really appreciate in recent Bioware titles, is the connectivity. In older games (like KoTOR and BG) this was done by having a very strong plot hook for the player combined with a well-fleshed out and interactive party. Compared even to BG II, New Vegas has dramatically underdeveloped party NPCs. The player is entirely isolated from the world - you're just a courrier, no past, present, friends, family, etc.

The sandbox reacts to you only insofar as you do things in the world that shift the reputation metre one way or the other.

Contrast this to how you guys approach games and there's a much richer personal narrative.

Don't get me wrong, I some of what New Vegas does. For example,  I really like skill checks, and I wish you implemented them more strongly in games as opposed to just general persuade checks.

I just have very specific tastes, and purchase very few games. CD Projeck product the Witcher and overall I liked the game, but they haven't shown me enough for me to consistently give them my business yet (i.e. by pre-ordering). And Obsidian has had technical problems with every release to date, making it hard for me to trust them on the development versus story/design side, which they are very strong on. So it's hard to not be very partial toward the work Bioware does.

[slimgrin]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote..
Oh, I don't know that we'd never do a silent PC again. I just doubt we'd ever couple it with first-person view-- especially not in a party-based game. We do like the cinematic style, at least currently, and we'll see where it takes us. Just because we're doing one thing for DA2-- whether it's human-only PC or companion appearances or voiced protaganist doesn't mean this is how we will do it for ALL GAME FOREVER. We'll see how it works, okay?

I'd like to believe that David, I really would. But the trend in all of BioWare's games going the SUPER KEWL cinematic with VO everything angle makes it hard to see past that hype. I just vastly prefer the silent PC approach in my RPGs, FWIW. You know, in case that wasn't clear.

I was just positing that a first person view for dialogue or conversations maybe would avoid the seeming issue some had with Origins with the Warden's blank face in conversations. Not that the whole game be in 1st person view - that would be stupid in a party based RPG. Thats all.

*goes off moping*

While I would never want cool cinematics to take precedence over, well, just about anything in a game ( dead last on my list of what makes a cool game, actually) Bioware has so far managed to balance cool cinematics with good gameplay. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Do you usually talk to people while engaging in combat?

I think what AngryPants is saying is that you can run around in third person (ie. you can see your PC) but as soon as you talk to someone it zooms back into first person-- ergo, you never actually see your character at all during the conversation, and it's just talking heads.

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Do you usually talk to people while engaging in combat?

The issue I thought was being discussed was PC and NPC interaction.  Not combat.  

Edit: Ninja'd by Gaider.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
I was just positing that a first person view for dialogue or conversations maybe would avoid the seeming issue some had with Origins with the Warden's blank face in conversations. Not that the whole game be in 1st person view - that would be stupid in a party based RPG. Thats all.

No, that wouldn't adress the complaint (or at least my complaint). The issue with the blank face is that the Warden is a prop. That's a result of the cinematic presentation. For the Warden not to be a prop, the cinematics are what need to go. But that then takes the game toward the FO:NV direction, which frankly is not that interesting of a game to play.

Well how do you engage in a conversation IRL?  An out of body experience where you're watching yourself talk?  And yet, RL conversations can be pretty deep and meaningful precisely because you're focusing on the person you're talking to.  If half the time I'm looking somewhere else than on the person I'm with, it's because I'm not very interested in what's going on.  Which strangely enough is exactly how I feel when I watch long interactions in The Witcher or Mass Effect.

[maxernst]

slimgrin wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

If only Bethesda had considered this obvious little fact when making Oblivion.

You can play Oblivion in third person.

it rarely work well.

1st person is considered the primary view, just as it is in Fallout 3.

it's only when they moved to platforms that they even started allowing the 3rd person view.  TES has been a 1st person view company from the very start--which makes sense, since they've never made party-based games. 

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Do you usually talk to people while engaging in combat?

The issue I thought was being discussed was PC and NPC interaction.  Not combat.  

Edit: Ninja'd by Gaider.

Nope, we were talking about combat. To recap the conversation

1) FP better for silent protagonist conversation
1) FP not good for melee combat
2) If only Obsidian had thought of that
1) Can TP in Oblivion
2) It broke
3) In Oblivion, conversation is always FP
1) Talk during combat?
3) What about combat?

[maxernst]

In Exile wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I thought FO:NV was lovely-- but it's a very different kind of game from what we're making (or what we make). Thankfully there's room for both.

What New Vegas lacks, and what I really appreciate in recent Bioware titles, is the connectivity. In older games (like KoTOR and BG) this was done by having a very strong plot hook for the player combined with a well-fleshed out and interactive party. Compared even to BG II, New Vegas has dramatically underdeveloped party NPCs. The player is entirely isolated from the world - you're just a courrier, no past, present, friends, family, etc.

The sandbox reacts to you only insofar as you do things in the world that shift the reputation metre one way or the other.

Contrast this to how you guys approach games and there's a much richer personal narrative.

But Gaider's point is well taken--there is room for both.  There are lots of people who like Bethesda's games (ok, FO:NV is obsidian, but still following the same approach) precisely because they are sandbox and they are able to develop their character in complete freedom.  And although I prefer DA:O's balance, and find the Bethesda games a bit hollow, if I had to jump one way or the other, I'd choose FO3 over the Witcher, where I'm forced to play a character that I don't enjoy.

[WuWeiWu]

This may be coming in late, but I personally thought that the story of ME was friggen' amazing. It took some serious suspension of disbelief to get started (LETS GO SAVE THE UNIVERSE WITH RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS... half an hour in to the game), but the entire ambiance and honesty made the story... well, friggen' amazing. Of course, once you knew what was happening, there was quite a large amount of character-driven depth to that whole first Council meeting, but I still hold that the beginning sequences (before you actually go on the 'tutorial' mission) leaves way too much inductive reasoning for the first-time ME player to reasonably do on their own.

Now, I also think that the beginning of ME was pretty close to the best BioWare could do, what with the first of a trilogy, introducing the universe and characters (culture shock, etc), etc. Both ME games are damn good, and while there are a few issues with the narrative here and there, most of those issues stem from people expecting the rules they know and abide by here, on planet Earth, to perfectly transpose to the ME (and, for that matter, DA) universe.

ME2 was fantastic. You know what else was fantastic? DA:O. I have total faith that BioWare will not disappoint with DA2, and I personally applaud and adore the direction they have stated DA2 will take in regards to narrative and voiced PC. It's such a better way to go than the traditional silent PC, in my opinion. I'm able to actually feel conversations, becoming involved in them largely as they happen - as opposed to analyzing them and hoping I made the best choice for the type of character I'm playing.

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 06 novembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[1483749283]

Mr kristjanson



If you're still reading, I just want to raise my hat to you, sir. You are responsible for some of the finest writing to come out of Edmonton. With all due admiration and respect to Leliana's creators, Leliana's song was pure genius. And it was not the only example. The water dragon too. Just a quick question: which parts of ME2 did you write? Just curious. Thank you.

[Anexity]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Do you usually talk to people while engaging in combat?

I think what AngryPants is saying is that you can run around in third person (ie. you can see your PC) but as soon as you talk to someone it zooms back into first person-- ergo, you never actually see your character at all during the conversation, and it's just talking heads.

That's Bethesda's influence at work. They certainly seem to prefer the first person view and just slap the third person on to try to appease the anti-FPS crowd. I personally like Bioware's style better, even the dialog wheel style.

Modifié par Anexity, 06 novembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[RyuAzai]

From my take on Hawke's story, and the 'direction'.



I think of it like this. If you played the noble human origins, basically that would be kinda 'your game'. There wouldn't be a 'Well I'm a grey warden now, time to save the country, put off the family think into later in the game''



It is more. "My family is dead, we were betrayed, and I know I have to live on." Revenge, survival, what have you. And obviously you may get dragged into conflicts surrounding you. And these kind of stories I enjoy a lot.

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm playing Fallout: NV and I find the unvoiced protagonist works better in first person view. No shots of your PC silently staring with little to no expression on their face.

DAO would for the most part have camera focus on the person you'd talk with, with just the outline/back of your character present at the edge of the screen (you'd see occasionally see your character's face while picking your responses but technically your character doesn't speak at that time) I thought it's actually quite nice enhancement from the first person view since it avoids the "PC silently staring with no expression" effect just the same, but gives better feel of your character's body language and such.

[Lukertin]

Addai67 wrote...
Well how do you engage in a conversation IRL?  An out of body experience where you're watching yourself talk?  And yet, RL conversations can be pretty deep and meaningful precisely because you're focusing on the person you're talking to.  If half the time I'm looking somewhere else than on the person I'm with, it's because I'm not very interested in what's going on.  Which strangely enough is exactly how I feel when I watch long interactions in The Witcher or Mass Effect.

Yea but ME and DA have things like well done facial expressions and body language, whereas FO and TES have an entire world populated by Keanu Reeves.

Modifié par Lukertin, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[Lukas Kristjanson]

Pausanias wrote...

Just a quick question: which parts of ME2 did you write? Just curious.

Heh, well, let me just catch my breath after the body-blows of this thread, because for starters I wrote Jacob. I quite like him, the man has his act together, but yeah, I see how the cumulative effect of a lot of factors could be viewed a certain way by some people (ooh, look at me duck and weave). Lessons learned every time, some obvious, some not. I also wrote Grunt and Joker which was crazy fun, with some Jack polish on the side, some crit path (I love a good speech), some reactivity (since I was also on ME1), and lots and lots of fiddly bits before I shifted over to the DA side again for prep and LS. Reviews are nice, but you know what makes me smile? Seeing Shep's “I’m sorry, I’m having trouble hearing you…” in someone's sig in a random forum. I giggled as I wrote that one very late night. And yes, I laugh at "the priiize" meme too.

Got to say, though, you can't slice any of our games up with utter absolutes of X did Y, and many of the above were edited or otherwise influenced by other talented people during reviews, interjections, and feedback from any number of playthroughs. We do it with every project, DA2 included. We definitely try to give ownership because we believe that's how you get the best plots and characters, but nothing is done in isolation, and that’s not limited to the writers. Some of my best work has been because an editor slapped me back to reality, we got an awesome alternate read in the sound booth, line limits because we have the perfect actor but he's only available for X amount of time, cine showing something instead of me blabbing it, edits to someone else’s groundwork (or someone editing mine), tech or art coming up with something so awesome you rewrite the scene to showcase it, or any number of other factors.

So to bring this back to writing for DA2, but really the whole design of it, even if some of you disagree with a decision we’ve made, you can be confident that nothing was decided in a vacuum. As picky as some get on these forums or elsewhere, I guarantee that in the vast number of cases we’ve passionately argued the exact same points ourselves and did not make the call lightly. We may not always be able to give you every detail, but I don’t think there’s been a thread on the board that at least one of us can’t point at it and say “I knew someone would feel like that.”**

Makes me want to get it right the first time. Can’t always say I have, but it’s never for lack of trying.






**Except, you know, maybe the romance-your-sister threads. Dude, no.

[Addai]

Lukertin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Well how do you engage in a conversation IRL?  An out of body experience where you're watching yourself talk?  And yet, RL conversations can be pretty deep and meaningful precisely because you're focusing on the person you're talking to.  If half the time I'm looking somewhere else than on the person I'm with, it's because I'm not very interested in what's going on.  Which strangely enough is exactly how I feel when I watch long interactions in The Witcher or Mass Effect.

Yea but ME and DA have things like well done facial expressions and body language, whereas FO and TES have an entire world populated by Keanu Reeves.

Oookaaay.  How does that address what I wrote?  I wasn't talking about Bethsoft games at all, I'm talking about how a real person engages in a real conversation.  Just because I can't see myself in out-of-body does not make the conversation less interesting or realistic.

[slimgrin]

Props to Kristjanson's post.

Owning Jacob, and the Priiiize. Man's got balls as big as church bells.

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

I giggled as I wrote that one very late night. And yes, I laugh at "the priiize" meme too.

First, thanks for your response. 

Second - and I must know for purely selfish reasons, is "the prize" a corsair reference?  As in Shepard is like a ship Jacob wants to board and take possession of? I'll feel very very slightly vindicated on one of my theories if it is.  And partially silly for even being nerdy enough to think of the reference correct or not.

Although I think more people would want to know what Jacob meant by saying Miranda "required" a better man than him.

If you are still in the answering mood, anyway.

slimgrin wrote...

Owning Jacob, and the Priiiize. Man's got balls as big as church bells.

I maintain that a significant aspect of the problems there were with FemShep's voice acting, but yeah, kudos.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 novembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Dave of Canada]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

Heh, well, let me just catch my breath after the body-blows of this thread, because for starters I wrote Jacob. I quite like him, the man has his act together, but yeah, I see how the cumulative effect of a lot of factors could be

You admit having written Jacob?

Heavy risk...

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'm I the only one that is a bit confused that a ME 2 writer has magically appeared on the DA 2 forum and that finding a post by one in the ME forums would be like trying to find a tick on a whale

[Onyx Jaguar]

You have to admit that the Jacob romance conclusion is by far the most memorable Romance conclusion in hell any game much less ME 2

[pizoxuat]

I actually like Jacob quite a bit, I just also had the icky feeling that I was sexually harassing him when doing the romance, so I went and did Space Batman instead. I don't mind "the priiiiiiize" line, to me it reads as cheesy role play. Maybe because my husband was military and, well, anyway. It's no different than if he was playing at being a pizza delivery guy and Shepard couldn't find her wallet or something, just fun.