153 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

This post makes little sence, I posted that Swashbucklers used shields, FACT, then I posted that most sailors could not swim, FACT. You have posted that terms have changed in the modern era, which has little merit since this is supposed to be a classically based game

So your last post wasn't in reference to my last post? You should have said. I'm not used to non linear conversation. Mere mortal that I am.

I feel I should apologise to the forum as a whole for what is clearly a very silly conversation, but apparently I haven't gotten my point across here. Plus it's late and I'm sleep deprived.

You're arguing that a really narrow and inappropriate definition of a term with several different meanings is the correct one.

It really does not matter what the medieval definition of the term was, no matter how vehemently you insist. It's not going to be played by people with a medieval grasp of the english language, it's a modern fiction which will be viewed through modern eyes, and specifically game literate ones: The terms they are using are right out of the DnD play books, such is the effect it has had upon modern gaming. I already mentioned mages, but what part of "An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal." involves daggers and light armour? Origins, and really any fantasy based game you care to mention is already packed with such definitions.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Aermas]

@ Helena: You're posting examples of changes in the setting.

As for using D&D as an example Rogues can use shields, as can Swashbucklers

Modifié par Aermas, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[Ziggeh]

Helena Tylena wrote...

Also, by your logic, 'malifecar' and 'witch' would be the same thing, and they would only have herbalism as their skill, magic would be things like pulling rabbits out of a hat, priests would be male, etc.

We're discussing whether the female captain of a pirate ship should use a buckler in order to qualify for a slang term.

If we're going to be pedantic, we might as well be nice and myopic about it.

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

As for using D&D as an example Rogues can use shields, as can Swashbucklers

Because rogues can use shields in D&D, Errol Flynn is not a swashbuckler. You have me in the crushing vice of reason there.

[Aermas]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Helena Tylena wrote...

Also, by your logic, 'malifecar' and 'witch' would be the same thing, and they would only have herbalism as their skill, magic would be things like pulling rabbits out of a hat, priests would be male, etc.

We're discussing whether the female captain of a pirate ship should use a buckler in order to qualify for a slang term.

If we're going to be pedantic, we might as well be nice and myopic about it.

To be pedantic she is no longer a Captain as her ship has been destroyed. & Swashbuckler is not a "slang" term, also I like how when I bring evidence to support my claims you ignore it.

[Aermas]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Aermas wrote...

As for using D&D as an example Rogues can use shields, as can Swashbucklers

Because rogues can use shields in D&D, Errol Flynn is not a swashbuckler. You have me in the crushing vice of reason there.

You brought up rogues in D&D, Errol Flynn does not have to adhere to the same build but I want the Swashbuckler in my DA:2 game to give me the option

Modifié par Aermas, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

I think narrative is also important, what is Isabela she fits the swashbuckler narrative. Why come up with some other term when it fits her so well.

Remember this isn't some generic skill-set this is a special set of skills just for Isabela. As such it should fit her character, and that character fits quite close to the fictional swashbuckler.

Modifié par Sigil_Beguiler123, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

Swashbuckler is not a "slang" term, also I like how when I bring evidence to support my claims you ignore it.

You'd need to provide evidence for me to ignore it. You've made points in a debate, of which I'm not sure I've ignored anything salient, but feel free to point out any that I have. (You've ignored a whole bunch of mine though, so you might want to replace a few of those glass panels. Either that or stop quoting from the internet warriors manual without reading the context.)

I'll leave the definition of the term "slang" alone as that's getting a little too "meta" for my tastes. (It is though.)

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:26 .

[Aermas]

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...

I think narrative is also important, what is Isabela she fits the swashbuckler narrative. Why come up with some other term when it fits her so well.

Remember this isn't some generic skill-set this is a special set of skills just for Isabela. As such it should fit her character, and that character fits quite close to the fictional swashbuckler.

Why come up with some other term?

I DIDN'T COME UP WITH IT! It's in history books, it's in swordsmen's guides. IT IS A FACT!

[Aermas]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Swashbuckler is not a "slang" term, also I like how when I bring evidence to support my claims you ignore it.

You'd need to provide evidence for me to ignore it. You've made points in a debate, of which I'm not sure I've ignored anything salient, but feel free to point out any that I have. (You've ignored a whole bunch of mine though, so you might want to replace a few of those glass panels. Either that or stop quoting from the internet warriors manual without reading the context.)

I'll leave the definition of the term "slang" alone as that's getting a little too "meta" for my tastes. (It is though.)

You have ignored the face that Swashbucklers used shields. & have posted contradictory evidence in that you first deny the access of shields to rogues then quote D&D as a reference, which I proved you wrong on.

[Sigil_Beguiler123]

Aermas wrote...

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...

I think narrative is also important, what is Isabela she fits the swashbuckler narrative. Why come up with some other term when it fits her so well.

Remember this isn't some generic skill-set this is a special set of skills just for Isabela. As such it should fit her character, and that character fits quite close to the fictional swashbuckler.

Why come up with some other term?

I DIDN'T COME UP WITH IT! It's in history books, it's in swordsmen's guides. IT IS A FACT!

I'm not saying you came up with it. I am saying that obviously Isabela doesn't fit the historical swashbuckler but she does fit the fictional swashbuckler. So I think it is a proper term for them to use for her speciality rather then come up with another term simply because it doesn't fit the historical version.

[Aermas]

Duelist would be the best choice! Fencer is another, even calling her a scrapper would be better than bastardizing a term that already exists, it would be like a swordsmen using an ax

Modifié par Aermas, 06 novembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Bruddajakka]

Aermas wrote...

You have ignored the face that Swashbucklers used shields. & have posted contradictory evidence in that you first deny the access of shields to rogues then quote D&D as a reference, which I proved you wrong on.

And your ignoring the fact that the word Swashbuckler has more then one use. Which in the case of Isabela is the one their using.

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

You have ignored the face that Swashbucklers used shields. & have posted contradictory evidence in that you first deny the access of shields to rogues then quote D&D as a reference, which I proved you wrong on.

Firstly, I'd dispute whether anyone ever went around calling themselves a swashbuckler, but if you say it's in books that display a working knowledge of etymology (ie: aren't applying it after the fact) well, that would indeed be evidence, as opposed to a point.

Secondly, that wasn't a point I was attempting to refute until just then, your original statement is not evidence of your original statement. I appreciate it would make discussions easier if that was indeed the case.

Thirdly, I didn't "deny the access of shields to rogues", I pointed out that many specific definitions of terms are innapropriate in the context of fantasy gaming. Rogues being a specific class, rather than a general term synonymous with "blaggard" or "mountebank" is just one such example. You "proving me wrong" was entirely missing the point.

[Aermas]

Secondly, that wasn't a point I was attempting to refute until just then, your original statement is not evidence of your original statement. I appreciate it would make discussions easier if that was indeed the case.



Can you please elaborate? I don't know what you mean by this

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

Can you please elaborate? I don't know what you mean by this

Well, saying that the moon is made of cheese isn't evidence that the moon tastes sort of like cheddar, so saying "swashbucklers use bucklers" isn't a piece of evidence I could have ignored. It was in fact your original statement, which would be incredibly hard to argue against if I were to ignore it.

But crucially, I wasn't suggesting that there was no definition in which swashbucklers use bucklers. I was suggesting that it's one of many possible definitions, of which it is not a very widely used one and is inappropriate on that basis.

[Aermas]

Okay that you for elaborating, but Swashbucklers only mean one thing in a classical setting, just like Knights now include Elton John does not mean that 15th Century knight sung love songs

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

Okay that you for elaborating, but Swashbucklers only mean one thing in a classical setting, just like Knights now include Elton John does not mean that 15th Century knight sung love songs

Hah, now that's a decent point, well made.

However, I would say that the term knight carries both this "classical" and it's social meaning in modern common usage without contradicting one another. This isn't true of "swashbuckler".

I'd argue that this classic setting you mention is entirely artificial, a fiction, one that can be a useful tool for writers, to have this pool of common knowledge to draw from, it's never been a set of strict laws to which individual fictions must adhere in the way you're suggesting.

[Aermas]

I can't argue against poetic licence in fiction, but it seems a disservice of the origins of the Swashbuckler, especially sense it's meaning is in it's name, unlike "Duelist" which is what she described herself to originally be.

[HighMoon]

I suspect Bioware weren't aiming for historical accuracy but were just searching for the most pirate-y name possible for her specialization.

[Aermas]

I need a "grinds teeth" gif or emote. 

I hate poetic licence

Modifié par Aermas, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[pizoxuat]

Have you seen her boots? The woman does not lack buckles. Considering number of them, she is probably pretty expert at buckling and unbuckling. One might call her a buckler. Who swashes.

[Aermas]

pizoxuat wrote...

Have you seen her boots? The woman does not lack buckles. Considering number of them, she is probably pretty expert at buckling and unbuckling. One might call her a buckler. Who swashes.

This is close to reducing me to tears

Slams face in to keyboard bv gftrbgb hbgvhtyf

Modifié par Aermas, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Helena Tylena]

From wikipedia. (you can decide for yourself how reliable it is)

"Swashbuckler or swasher is a term that developed in the 16th century to describe rough, noisy and boastful swordsmen. It is based on a fighting style using a side-sword with a buckler in the off-hand, which was filled with much "swashing and making a noise on the buckler". Today the term "swashbuckler" has changed, and refers to both a type of fictional character and to a fiction genre, especially in the world of film and video games."


Important words in bold.
link

Modifié par Helena Tylena, 06 novembre 2010 - 03:54 .

[Bobad]

Swashbuckler?, I thought as a pirate her class would be Timber Shiverer?