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Dealing with Morality in your Games...


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#26
Darthnemesis2

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

But, worse, people forget that when they declare morality is subjective, they are making a sweeping epistemological statement that leaves the door open for ANYONE to do ANYTHING and claim it's "perfectly okay".  No.  I don't care what society you're from, that which destroys human life and dignity is evil.
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Still not disagreeing...
What I'm pointing out though is that just because one person (or even a group of people) say something is 'wrong' doesn't make it so. In your previous example, is killing in self defense wrong? You said you "can sure as heck shoot them in the head when they decide that their "morals" indicate that they should break into my house, kill my best friend, and rape me." this is self denfense, but some would still argue that, since you killed you were evil.

#27
Herr Uhl

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Murder, rape and torture. For invading armies it seems moral enough. Human sacrifice was considered extremely moral in some societies.


The fact that they *did* it makes it *moral*?  How's that again?
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By their morals, it was acceptable. It was how things were done. It is just something that disregards that morals are the same to everybody. If you think it is immoral, then it is that to you, not everybody.

#28
xODD7BALLx

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Have to agree with Darth. In American society which stems from puritan concepts nudity and such is an awful thing and is not socially acceptable, yet in Europe it's acceptable, I dont mean people go at it in the streets or anything, I just mean the human body isnt so much taboo over there as is here.


I love how people always come up with these totally optional values that are of almost no importance when they talk about morality being "subjective".  Who cares about whether people get twitchy when you show your boobs in public?  How about murder?  Rape?  Torture?  Anyone think of any decent society where THOSE are accepted?  Would you want to live there?  No?

Congratulations.  You now know that some things actually are pretty damn bad.
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I was just making an example.
But now that you mention murder, rape, torture, yeah I've seen the Taliban's work when people reach out helped us and gave us intel were in their eyes infidels as well, and these are an extremist group of people who believe what they do is right by God, murdering women and children is ok to them because of their "crime" against God.
No I wouldnt want to live in Afghanistan I had my fill of it to honest, do I feel guilt or shame or sadness about things we were a part of yeah, do I feel it everyday yeah, is it a heavy burden yeah. Did part of me feel every last one of those evil murdering bastards not deserve any rounds we put on them nope, one might say avenging or defending those who cannot help themselves is evil as well, put yourself in those boots and see what mankind is capable of doing to another, your perspective will change.

The world is ugly it's full of badness, but without evil we wouldnt know what good is. I'm no Saint but I've done the best I knew to do with what my heart felt.

#29
Flamin Jesus

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

I love how people always come up with these totally optional values that are of almost no importance when they talk about morality being "subjective".  Who cares about whether people get twitchy when you show your boobs in public?  How about murder?  Rape?  Torture?  Anyone think of any decent society where THOSE are accepted?  Would you want to live there?  No?


Not that I don't find those things thoroughly dissagreeable, but there are a number of societies where each of those are accepted, actually only recent studies have shown that a not too low percentage of my people (Germans) think that there are circumstances under which it would be acceptable to torture a prisoner, not to mention the CIA's willingness to ship 'special' prisoners to certain US-allied countries where torture is legal. India is revered by many because of its oh-so-spiritual religion and oh-so-peaceful culture, but there are certain circumstances under which suicide is expected, and failing that, murder is a solution. (Although I doubt that many modern inhabitants of India still follow those rules)

How about pedophilia? It's one of the most sensitive subjects for modern western people, but both the ancient Romans and Greeks were rather fond of the idea, and both were/are considered pinnacles of civilization until they fell to ruin.

Undue imprisonment? Ask young Americans who get sent to straight camps (Not that the idea of sending a gay teen into a secluded camp full of other gay teens to have a lot of muscle-steeling sport in short dresses sounds particularly effective).

Murder? How about death sentences?

Morality ALWAYS leaves room for interpretation, no matter how depraved one may think a certain act is, there's always a way to make it function in a society.

#30
Arttis

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Would wanting the destruction of all that exists be wrong?

#31
Flamin Jesus

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Arttis wrote...

Would wanting the destruction of all that exists be wrong?


I'm sure we can find a system of morality that supports that wish. ;)

#32
Darthnemesis2

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Flamin Jesus wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Would wanting the destruction of all that exists be wrong?


I'm sure we can find a system of morality that supports that wish. ;)


Devil worship comes to mind...

#33
Herr Uhl

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Arttis wrote...

Would wanting the destruction of all that exists be wrong?


What has wrong got to do with it? If you think that the destruction of all that exists is a good idea, then you probably don't see it as morally wrong.

There is no universal right and wrong.

#34
Arttis

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That we know of yet...

#35
xODD7BALLx

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Flamin Jesus wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Would wanting the destruction of all that exists be wrong?


I'm sure we can find a system of morality that supports that wish. ;)


The world in all it's history has plenty of people I'm sure who have been cast aside, beaten, internally destroyed seeing all they held dear destroyed and felt so alone and as if all the world was there sworn enemy for all that had been done and yearned to burn the world and smell the ashes.

Modifié par Operative84, 26 octobre 2009 - 03:38 .


#36
Maria Caliban

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Darthnemesis2 wrote...

I'm not even talking about a lack of a meter though. I'm reffering specifically to the fact that there is no absolute 'right' or 'wrong' in the gameworld. There are choices and there are consequences. You decide what choice is the right one for a given situation. Some people will hate you for it, some will love you, some will see it was necessary, some won't like it but will go along because they have no other choice (in their minds).


Yes, but both those choices and consequences are the product of the developers.

I’ll give you an extreme example: When I was in high school, a cop came in to tell us about the consequences of drinking. He told us a true story about two boys our age who got drunk. They then decided it would be fun to mug people in the drive through of a McDonlands. The woman they tried to mug started screaming, so one guy started punching her, and it turns out she was pregnant.

Therefore, in this scenario ,the choice of ‘under-age drinking’ led to the consequence of ‘committing crimes and beating up pregnant women.’ If you encountered this in a game, even if there was no alignment meter, it would be the developers putting their own ethical system into the setting.

Now, again, it’s an extreme example, and I found the cop’s story disingenuous. But my point is that a lack of alignment system is not the same as a lack of ethical system.

#37
Flamin Jesus

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Herr Uhl wrote...

There is no universal right and wrong.


I agree, there are a lot of things I don't want to see, do or experience, but under different circumstances I'd feel different. We all have our convictions, ideas and limits, but they don't come out of thin air, they are acquired and learned. The mere fact that human history is a history of war and bloodshed, suppression and repression suggests that it doesn't take much to realign a person's moral compass.

EDIT: Grammar...

Modifié par Flamin Jesus, 26 octobre 2009 - 03:44 .


#38
Darthnemesis2

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Maria Caliban wrote...


Darthnemesis2 wrote...

I'm not even talking about a lack of a meter though. I'm reffering specifically to the fact that there is no absolute 'right' or 'wrong' in the gameworld. There are choices and there are consequences. You decide what choice is the right one for a given situation. Some people will hate you for it, some will love you, some will see it was necessary, some won't like it but will go along because they have no other choice (in their minds).


Yes, but both those choices and consequences are the product of the developers.

I’ll give you an extreme example: When I was in high school, a cop came in to tell us about the consequences of drinking. He told us a true story about two boys our age who got drunk. They then decided it would be fun to mug people in the drive through of a McDonlands. The woman they tried to mug started screaming, so one guy started punching her, and it turns out she was pregnant.

Therefore, in this scenario ,the choice of ‘under-age drinking’ led to the consequence of ‘committing crimes and beating up pregnant women.’ If you encountered this in a game, even if there was no alignment meter, it would be the developers putting their own ethical system into the setting.

Now, again, it’s an extreme example, and I found the cop’s story disingenuous. But my point is that a lack of alignment system is not the same as a lack of ethical system.


Obviously they can't account for all choices. But what they can do is offer what they can, let you pick the one that 'right' for your character and then present the consequence of said choice.

#39
SirGladiator

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There is a big difference between there 'being no right and wrong' and some people simply not knowing what is right and wrong. If I know right from wrong and you don't, you might say 'there is no right and wrong', but you'll be wrong :) . I think in the game the key point isnt, again, that there 'is no right and wrong' its simply going to be harder to figure out than other games, or at least they're going to try to make it harder. If you cant figure out what is right and what is wrong in the game, just like in life, you might say 'there is no right and wrong', but that will probably still be wrong. Of course we'll have to wait and actually play the game to know for sure. But if you don't know right from wrong in real life you probably won't be able to figure it out in the game, as they're going to at least try to make it hard, you probably need to have a good knowledge of right and wrong going in to figure it all out. But time will tell :) .

#40
Flamin Jesus

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So, you know what's right and wrong and anyone who disagrees is evil? O_o



Charming...

#41
briskojr

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SirGladiator wrote...

There is a big difference between there 'being no right and wrong' and some people simply not knowing what is right and wrong. If I know right from wrong and you don't, you might say 'there is no right and wrong', but you'll be wrong :) . I think in the game the key point isnt, again, that there 'is no right and wrong' its simply going to be harder to figure out than other games, or at least they're going to try to make it harder. If you cant figure out what is right and what is wrong in the game, just like in life, you might say 'there is no right and wrong', but that will probably still be wrong. Of course we'll have to wait and actually play the game to know for sure. But if you don't know right from wrong in real life you probably won't be able to figure it out in the game, as they're going to at least try to make it hard, you probably need to have a good knowledge of right and wrong going in to figure it all out. But time will tell :) .


I guess if the person in question was from the same society as you that would be the case.

#42
xODD7BALLx

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Flamin Jesus wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

There is no universal right and wrong.


I agree, there are a lot of things I don't want to see, do or experience, but under different circumstances I'd feel different. We all have our convictions, ideas and limits, but they don't come out of thin air, they are acquired and learned. The mere fact that human history is a history of war and bloodshed, suppression and repression suggests that it doesn't take much to realign a person's moral compass.

EDIT: Grammar...


Exactly one may feel theft is wrong but would they feel the same way if they or their familiy were starving and was in a position where the theft of bread is neccessary for survival?
Many people speak against conflict and war, but in most cases wars were fought to end suffering or oppression.
Would you take a life to save lives? Would you destroy to create? Would you die so others could live?

Though I respect your feeling that we are learned to be a certain way, I and just how I feel in respect that I have not been subject to being force fed how life should be and how I should be. As I've said I'm no Saint, I have faith, but I'm not a church goin kinda man, I feel things in my heart and many would say well your heart is just an organ but I believe I have a soul or whatever you may want to call it, I'm not here to preach or say anything to anyone or tell them this is how it is because I'm not you, I'm my own person, I've gone through alot and I'm sure everyone has, but I know there is something inside me that literally feels pain when I've done something wrong and not wrong to society just that wretching feeling of something being wrong. Like I said I have guilt and shame from the war but at the same time I feel those that were sent on an express train to their maker deserved it, and anyone would feel the same in most situations similar to mine, not because of social conditioning but because when you see awful terrible acts that have been done by people and you have the means to stop them from doing so again you will do so.

I guess I'm an understanding man is all. I've been poor before, me and my brother not hardly having any food at all, power cut off, water cut off, saltine crackers for food, and because of that I've seen folks with wrags for clothes kids sickly looking, hardly with any money to buy food at the store and I've seen a kid put a candybar in his pocket and I dont say a word, because hell not only do I understand what he's going through but I also know that candy bar might be something so small to most but it may be the little bit of joy or hope he gets to last him for the next few days.

I know I'm writing a novel here, point is if you aint doing things out of malice or downright evil and regardless of what you believe there is such a thing is evil just as there is goodness, but if youre doing what you can with what you have then I dont see that you should be looked down on like filth, circumstances can put us in a tight spot sometimes you know.

#43
Cuuniyevo

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DISCLAIMER: I am a person with beliefs and opinions. What follows is a small selection. Please do not think that these few sentences is the sum of me, and please do not assume that I have not thought through any of it. I could go on for hundreds of pages about philosophy but have instead tried to boil one small part of my personal code down to a few paragraphs. Also, please, for the love of keeping threads below a dozen pages, don't take that bit about 'my own personal code' as some sort of admission to believing in moral relativity. If I didn't believe my philosophy was right, I would have a different one and believe that was right, and it's the same with everyone who has thought about these things at length. We'll just go in circles for hours if we start that game of semantics. Another good thing to keep in mind is the difference between morality and ethics—they're not homynyms. It's getting late and I might make some sort of grammatical or logical error somewhere, but I'll try to keep it to a minimum.



Wall-o-Text starts here, so if you're easily bored, skip to the last paragraph:



I see there are quite a few people here who believe in moral relativity. I disagree. I believe in certain moral absolutes. However, let me qualify that with the idea that intentions are what matter, not the actions themselves. For instance, moving your arm forwards is not a bad thing…unless perhaps you were holding a sword and pointing it at someone. The action itself was neutral. It had no particular meaning. What was important was the intent and the result. If you did not intend to stab the person, you might be convicted (by society) of manslaughter, while if you did intend on harming them, you might be convicted of murder. Some may say that it only matters insofar as society knows or cares about it, but I (believing in moral absolutes) say that even if you're the only person left in the universe who knows what happened, it still matters. If you just murdered someone because you didn't like them, it was wrong, even if nobody else knows it. If they were trying to (for the sake of argument) blow up an orphanage and stabbing them was the only way to stop them, it was perhaps not right, but it was certainly the better of the two choices you thought you were limited to.

Another example: Let's say that you're a warden walking along the road in Denerim and someone begs for money. What do you do? What is right and what is wrong? Is giving them money right? Is telling them to go get a job right? Neither. What you do is never right or wrong. It's why you do it. If you give them some money so they'll leave you alone, that's not a good deed. That isn't morally right. If you give them money so they'll think better of you, that isn't a good deed. If you give them money so some game will 'reward your charity' with some sort of perk or something, that isn't a good deed. You were being selfish, even in giving. Now, if you honestly believe that person is down on their luck and that your charity will help them, then I would consider your deed good. You were trying to help someone. Helping people = good. Helping people only as a cover for helping yourself = neutral or bad, depending on how far you go with it. Now let's say that the beggar spends the money you gave him/her to buy a weapon and start mugging people. They used your charity for a bad thing, but that has no effect on whether or not your deed was good or bad. Other people make their own decisions and you cannot change that. You only have control over yourself and your own choices. Or let's say you gave them money for a selfish reason, but they use it to provide for their family. You didn't do a good deed, but something good came out of it anyway. The beggar made it good. Let's go to the other end of the spectrum and say that you read a FAQ and know that the beggar is going to become a bandit if you help them. So you deny them the money because of that. Well, the beggar might be angry at you, but technically you did it for the right reason. If you deny them because you're stingy or just dislike them, that's a bad reason. If you deny them because you believe they should 'get a real job' and solve their own problem (after all, it's not your fault they're poor), that's a good reason. You might be considered naive or bad by some people, but hey, if you honestly think that's right, go for it. It was done for a good reason.

To go with a more extreme example, let's get back to killing people for a bit. If you're killing people to protect someone else, then you're doing it for a good cause. If you're killing people because you want to get loot or acclaim in the game world, that's a bad thing. If you're killing people because they disagree with you, that's bad. So on and so forth. On the other side of the 'killing people' coin, you have the ability to let someone die. You didn't kill them yourself, but you let them die. Okay, now, same thing: If you let them die because you didn't like them, that was a bad thing. If you let them die because you felt that they had to for the greater good, then that's a good reason. Maybe you were mistaken about them and they really deserved to live, but your intention was good.



What I'm trying to get to here is that actions themselves are always neutral. No action is good, no action is bad. It's the intent that is good or bad. That being said, you must always keep in mind that you are the easiest person you will ever fool. Search your intentions regularly. Ask yourself why you're doing something, instead of just doing what you think is correct right now. Far too many people have 'decided' what is right and wrong and then just blindly charge into it without ever looking back or around at the consequences. Trying to be good is a lifelong struggle for billions of people, and has been for all of recorded history, but in the end, it's the right thing to do. =P

#44
gethsemani87

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Cuuniyevo I think your post is excellent and I agree with your points.



I have to say however, that in any work of fiction it is the authors' responsibility to provide us with a definite scale of morality, even if it isn't pushed into our faces. Imagine 1984 without the premise that Authoritarian states are bad. It wouldn't be much of the book it is today if you removed that single overriding logic. Without a (moral) basis from where to begin to explore ethics in the game world, cyou are going nowhere without a map. For the choices to have any impact and the discussion to be worthwhile, you need for the developers to define what is "right" and what is "wrong" and go from there. The trick lies in not judging the player for making a choice, but letting them make up their mind about the consequences of their actions.

#45
Arttis

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How about the universal right and wrong is that you are wrong no matter what you believe?The only right is you may exsist.

Modifié par Arttis, 26 octobre 2009 - 07:42 .


#46
Draconus Kahn

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There will always be certain things that society will almost always consider right and wrong on it's merits. But both you and I know that there are things in this world that are very hard to distinguish as right or wrong. Let's take for example the scene in Kingdom of Heaven (great movie btw) where our perfect knight (Orlando Bloom) has a choice...
He could, on one hand save the kingdom he has fought so hard to protect; by agreeing to the king's wishes that he should lead the army and marry the king's sister after the king has devorced her from her husband. Later he would be executed. On the other hand there is forsaking the kingdom's welfare for his own integrity. We all know that the Princess' husband will take power from the king's sister and make war on the muslims; essentially dooming the kingdom to war.

Something stirs within the knight, something the king had said earlier in the film. "Even though kings or men of power may move a man. You cannot stand before God and say, "Well, I was told by others to do thus," or, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice. Remember, your soul is in your keeping alone." After remembering this, our perfect knight (so to speak) decides to decline the king's offer, and therefor sacrifices the kingdom for his own integrity.

Was he good, or acting out of selfish desire for his own wellfare? That is what grey means. These kinds of choices are up to the interpereter to decide. Is there an ultimate virtue? What do you believe? In the end we're all just as imperfect at making our choices. We are all guided by different principles. Some of us might be driven by the same moral foundations, but most of us have our own agendas. I think the grey area alot of story characters live in is the most interesting and perplexing mode of story telling. It is an area where even a "white knight" can be grey.

Modifié par Draconus Kahn, 26 octobre 2009 - 09:40 .


#47
soteria

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Darthnemesis2 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

But, worse, people forget that when they declare morality is subjective, they are making a sweeping epistemological statement that leaves the door open for ANYONE to do ANYTHING and claim it's "perfectly okay".  No.  I don't care what society you're from, that which destroys human life and dignity is evil.
Image IPBImage IPB


Still not disagreeing...
What I'm pointing out though is that just because one person (or even a group of people) say something is 'wrong' doesn't make it so. In your previous example, is killing in self defense wrong? You said you "can sure as heck shoot them in the head when they decide that their "morals" indicate that they should break into my house, kill my best friend, and rape me." this is self denfense, but some would still argue that, since you killed you were evil.


I'm shaking my head in disbelief.  You ARE disagreeing with her.  You're saying "right and wrong is relative to the culture you live in," she is saying "no, there are certain moral absolutes."  If you are irreligious, it's probably hard to justify any sort of moral absolute, since man is the highest authority.  I think ultimately "might makes right" if you believe in moral relativism, whether you yourself choose to impose your views on others or no.  If you do believe in some sort of higher being, it's a different ball game.

I would agree with Cuuneyo that intent is the most important thing, and that is reflected in at least NWN2.  Whenever you do something, you're usually asked to explain your motives, and your answer determines which direction your alignment goes.  Where people get in trouble with that system is trying to have their character lie about thier motives when lying isn't an option.

Modifié par soteria, 26 octobre 2009 - 12:02 .


#48
Critical Miss

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I thought the good/evil thing wasn't in DA:O, rather your actions effect your standing with party members and certain groups within the game. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

#49
Bara Rockfall

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There have been a number of excellent points made here. Morality is a social construct and as a result does have a wide ranging effect on populations. Since societies create morals to uphold common needs, the members of these societies develop common belief systems. Over the past 12,000 years or so, humans have shared some basic requirements for survival. The need for food and the need for safety being the most fundamental of these The need to protect one’s mate and property have also grown out of our social interaction.

Because of these common needs we have developed common morals and beliefs of right and wrong. Will everyone share the same beliefs in a society? No, but the key is that the majority do and thus they become morals.

Now morals are an intellectual concept. I believe that killing is wrong but if someone is trying to kill me, I am willing to kill them first. This is a emotional response and far more fundamental then morals.

As far aa laws are concerned they are merely the attempt of social to codify morals in a judge system.



On the lighter side of this debate I think that DA is going in the right direction with morality. Attach consequences to actions and let players create their own morality.


#50
Lord Clocks

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I have to say however, that in any work of fiction it is the authors' responsibility to provide us with a definite scale of morality, even if it isn't pushed into our faces. Imagine 1984 without the premise that Authoritarian states are bad. It wouldn't be much of the book it is today if you removed that single overriding logic. Without a (moral) basis from where to begin to explore ethics in the game world, cyou are going nowhere without a map. For the choices to have any impact and the discussion to be worthwhile, you need for the developers to define what is "right" and what is "wrong" and go from there. The trick lies in not judging the player for making a choice, but letting them make up their mind about the consequences of their actions.


It seems that a number of folks espouse the view that rather than define the specific and strict scale of whether a player action is "right" or "wrong", a developer can instead create a system of natural consequences.  In that system, you attach changes to specific actions in-game which drive changes to how the player is able to play or is percieved in the course of the game based on those actions.

But in placing those effects into the game itself, isnt the developer by the choice of how deep the effect is, putting such a "scale" on the morality of that choice?  How would you be able to implement such choices without neccessarily defining the depth of the consequences for that action?  Isnt doing so basically prejudicial in specification of a morality system?