195 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is, but only as long as you can reasonably expect to beat the main enemy (Sovereign) without those ships. That's the one who rammed the frigates out of the way as if they didn't exist, you know. This is not about the additional sacrifice. It's about the risk of losing the battle altogether by giving Sovereign enough time to activate the relay switch. Since all other outcomes are contingent on beating Sovereign, you'd want to sent as many ships against Sovereign as can fire on it at the same time. Granted, the situation is not as clear-cut as at the Collector base, but clearly, the Paragon decision is significantly riskier than the Renegade one.

 

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay. Saren shoot himself^_^ and Shep controls the citadel.

You think these 3-4 ships we lose against the geth could be vital against Sovereign...okay.

I think it's riskier to ignore the geth fleet. Shep knows that the geth worship Sovereign and Hackett's ships are going to attack their god. The geth could flank the Alliance fleet while they're fighting an unknown dreadnought...not good imo.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Human council's grip on galactic leadership is less established and secure than the old Council's. The Old Council, between the three of them, could outweigh the rest of the galaxy combined and force everyone in line. The Human Council can't. It needs to be responsive to the concerns of other species lest it lose its own power.

It's worth taking into consideration, but isn't enough to make me want it around. I don't think that this spate of enlightened self-interest would last, especially not with CCerberus manipulations going on.

Cerberus isn't intrensically anti-alien. Cerberus helped Jacob to save the Council regardless of which, and Cerberus is just as committed to fighting the Reapers. TIM is just as happy if you saved the Council as if you let them die.

Helping alien interests is human interest as well. Cerberus doesn't change that.

It is still an entire race...

It's a single person. You aren't going about killing five billion individuals. You're killing a mother.

plus, Benezia tells you about indoctrination right before the rachni queen starts talking, and she wants you to kill her.

And you trust a double-traitor's word, who can be trying to save her name?

Very sad, but true. Maybe it has to do if you have combat exoskeleton equipped.

Why is this sad?

Because I'm not great with grenades either, and when I get the renegade result it's generally because I punched people to death with a single blow.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You don't know that. You never see the contract, only listen to Zaeed. He may have been BS-ing you from the start.

So... you are saying that Zaeed would cover up the mission really being about taking down a known criminal that Shepard would normally not think twice about taking down, instead saying the mission was to save some random factory that Shepard would have no reason to care about?

Pardon?

Read the bloody mission briefing. You are basicly saying that TIM would agree to helping with a contract sight unseen and/or not be able to obtain his own copy regardless. Or perhaps that TIM would lie over this, despite having the same lack of reasons as Zaeed would have.

Making up facts does not equal fact. Unless you can prove the mission briefing was false, quit pretending it was.

He was using a tactic that worked.

Really? I don't remember the fire killing Vido. I guess after Zaheed set it, he and Shep should just have gone home, mission accomplished?

Actually, Zaeed's blowing up the fuel got a few Blue Suns killed instantly, cleared the entrance, and a few Blue Suns get caught in fire later as you progress into the factory.

None of which should have slowed you down at all.

Cerberus even forgot to mention about it. Besides, if you play it after Purgatory, you have all the reason to believe that TIM would prefer to put Vido down, than save the factory.

Which is why the suggestion that Zaeed lied about the contract is innane. Neither Shepard nor TIM would have objected to taking down Vido as a mission.

If he doesn't care about his mission, why should you? It's not like you doing him a favor.

If he doesn't care about his mission, why would he care about yours? If you, as his leader (for the main mission even if not for this one) can't get him to care now, how could you trust him later?

He prefers setting his enemies on fire.

Then he should do so when they are asleep and ideally after crippling them. Or at least made sure the exits were blocked. He is a good soldier, but an incompetent assassin. It was particularly irksome for my infiltrator Shep.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is, but only as long as you can reasonably expect to beat the main enemy (Sovereign) without those ships. That's the one who rammed the frigates out of the way as if they didn't exist, you know. This is not about the additional sacrifice. It's about the risk of losing the battle altogether by giving Sovereign enough time to activate the relay switch. Since all other outcomes are contingent on beating Sovereign, you'd want to sent as many ships against Sovereign as can fire on it at the same time. Granted, the situation is not as clear-cut as at the Collector base, but clearly, the Paragon decision is significantly riskier than the Renegade one.

 

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay. Saren shoot himself^_^ and Shep controls the citadel.

You think these 3-4 ships we lose against the geth could be vital against Sovereign...okay.

I think it's riskier to ignore the geth fleet. Shep knows that the geth worship Sovereign and Hackett's ships are going to attack their god. The geth could flank the Alliance fleet while they're fighting an unknown dreadnought...not good imo.

Where do you get that the geth ships were going to break through and turn on you?

It's the Destiny Ascensionand Council that was going down. Not 'the entire Citadel Fleet is about to break.'

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus isn't intrensically anti-alien. Cerberus helped Jacob to save the Council regardless of which, and Cerberus is just as committed to fighting the Reapers. TIM is just as happy if you saved the Council as if you let them die.



Helping alien interests is human interest as well. Cerberus doesn't change that.

I suspect that this will only last until Cerberus doesn't need the other species anymore.

And you trust a double-traitor's word, who can be trying to save her name?

In this case, yes. I felt her words had the ring of truth to them, and made a judgment call.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus isn't intrensically anti-alien. Cerberus helped Jacob to save the Council regardless of which, and Cerberus is just as committed to fighting the Reapers. TIM is just as happy if you saved the Council as if you let them die.

Helping alien interests is human interest as well. Cerberus doesn't change that.

I suspect that this will only last until Cerberus doesn't need the other species anymore.

When does ignoring the aliens/letting them get angry and upset defend or advance human interests?

Let alone fighting them. Conquering them would be huge, messy, costly, and not give real gain either.

And you trust a double-traitor's word, who can be trying to save her name?

In this case, yes. I felt her words had the ring of truth to them, and made a judgment call.

You have pyschic powers now?

[Manic Sheep]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is, but only as long as you can reasonably expect to beat the main enemy (Sovereign) without those ships. That's the one who rammed the frigates out of the way as if they didn't exist, you know. This is not about the additional sacrifice. It's about the risk of losing the battle altogether by giving Sovereign enough time to activate the relay switch. Since all other outcomes are contingent on beating Sovereign, you'd want to sent as many ships against Sovereign as can fire on it at the same time. Granted, the situation is not as clear-cut as at the Collector base, but clearly, the Paragon decision is significantly riskier than the Renegade one.

 

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay. Saren shoot himself^_^ and Shep controls the citadel.

You think these 3-4 ships we lose against the geth could be vital against Sovereign...okay.

I think it's riskier to ignore the geth fleet. Shep knows that the geth worship Sovereign and Hackett's ships are going to attack their god. The geth could flank the Alliance fleet while they're fighting an unknown dreadnought...not good imo.

"Quick open the stations arms, maybe the fleet can take down sovereign before he takes control of the station"

You also don’t know how many ships you will lose and you only destroyed the geth immediately around the ascension.  All the other ships were still tied up fighting the geth.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquel wrote...

I think it's riskier to ignore the geth fleet. Shep knows that the geth worship Sovereign and Hackett's ships are going to attack their god. The geth could flank the Alliance fleet while they're fighting an unknown dreadnought...not good imo.

It's unclear if the Geth are able to disengage from the DA and Turian ships they are clashing with and engage the 5th Fleet. It's clear though that if the 5th Fleet engages the Geth it will suffer some damage even before it engages Sovereign (if it is able to do so at all after that). Destroying Sovereign before the Geth finish off the Turians can possibly prompt them to retreat, thus saving the 5th Fleet the trouble of fighting them.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Moiaussi]

Manic Sheep wrote...

Except for the fact that if you don't stop sovereign in time he/it will take control of the station and let the rest of the reaper fleet in which would pretty much result in an instant loss and the reapers would the precede to wipe out all advance sapient life in the galaxy.

Saving the council and the ascension is unquestionably better for long term stability and in pretty much any other situation would be a good decision  but given the situation long term stability is not what you should be concerned with. It’s more sensible to let them die so you have more of a chance to take out sovereign.
Although I don’t agree with your example the renegade options are not necessarily pragmatic ones (tho they sometimes are) even with the council the option to “concentrate on sovereign” is not renegade, it is neutral. You get both para and ren points for taking it. The renegade option while exactly the same in consequences (as it should be IMO) is made suggesting different reasons. Intentionally letting the council die so humanity can seize power

But you already should know from the council fleet that Sovereign seems pretty much invulnerable, and the DA is on the way to sovereign. Saving the DA also means fewer Geth on your tail, which means longer/better sustained fire against sovereign.

It isn't all that clear a decision. The time consideration is valid, but so are the other tactical considerations, let alone strategic. Besides, when the decision is to be made, you have control of the citadel (you had to to be able to let the alliance fleet use the relays), so a reaper victory isn't quite as imminent.

[Xilizhra]

When does ignoring the aliens/letting them get angry and upset defend or advance human interests?



Let alone fighting them. Conquering them would be huge, messy, costly, and not give real gain either.

Recall my Reaper-based seizure of power scenario.

You have pyschic powers now?

No, an ability to read people's motives. It exists in real life too.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

You don't know that. You never see the contract, only listen to Zaeed. He may have been BS-ing you from the start.[/quote]

So... you are saying that Zaeed would cover up the mission really being about taking down a known criminal that Shepard would normally not think twice about taking down, instead saying the mission was to save some random factory that Shepard would have no reason to care about?

Pardon?
[/quote]
Pardon moi, Zaeed never said he had to rescue the workers. He said that Vido was using them as slave labor, and "the company wants it dealt with". Nothing about saving the workers. Not. A. Word.
[/quote]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where do you get that the geth ships were going to break through and turn on you?

It's the Destiny Ascensionand Council that was going down. Not 'the entire Citadel Fleet is about to break.'

I doubt the DA could stop the attacking geth ships if they decide to defend their god.  Sovereign and these geth ships at the same time would be more problematic, I think (no element of surprise against the geth).

Modifié par Barquiel, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:13 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Pardon moi, Zaeed never said he has to rescue the workers. He said that Vido was using them as slave labor, and "the company wants it dealt with". Nothing about saving the workers. Not. A. Word.

Irrelevant. The briefing is to save the factory. Stopping the fire that Zaeed himself set saves the workers, but that is incidental to saving the factory. Now.. do you have an actual point? Or are you just going to continue with red herrings?

[Zulu_DFA]

Which briefing?

[Barquiel]

Manic Sheep wrote...

"Quick open the stations arms, maybe the fleet can take down sovereign before he takes control of the station"

You also don’t know how many ships you will lose and you only destroyed the geth immediately around the ascension.  All the other ships were still tied up fighting the geth.

But if Sovereign can control the citadel without an inside man...why did Sovereign need the conduit/Saren at all?

[tommyt_1994]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I'd say, that I don't take the risk at all, since the negative outcome of my decision (death of the hostages) occurs immediately and in over even before the positive outcome comes to fruition (-1 bad guy in the Galaxy).

While you take the risk indeed, by reaping the benefits of saving the hostages and defusing the situation at hand, but letting the bad guy go loose, and do alot more bad stuff you may or may not hear about in the future (which is up to BioWare, in whom you apparently have faith, that they won't punish the righteous...).

With BStS, the only reason for not saving the hostages is metagaming. When you choose to save the hostages, you have no way of knowing that said bad guy would be able to magicly teleport away. It should have taken him time to get to the surface or docking port or whereever, and even if he did, there was no ship reported as being there. Even if there was a ship, the Normandy was there to take it down.

There was no reasonable way to expect he would magically get away rather than you being able to take him down after securing the hostages.

Ok, I have to throw this in there. Every Shepard who saves the hostages, trusts that this madman Batarian terrorist won't blow the charges as soon as he leaves the building. He would be doubly tempted because this human Spectre who ruined all his plans could very well be right next to one at the time.

[Manic Sheep]

Moiaussi wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

Except for the fact that if you don't stop sovereign in time he/it will take control of the station and let the rest of the reaper fleet in which would pretty much result in an instant loss and the reapers would the precede to wipe out all advance sapient life in the galaxy.

Saving the council and the ascension is unquestionably better for long term stability and in pretty much any other situation would be a good decision  but given the situation long term stability is not what you should be concerned with. It’s more sensible to let them die so you have more of a chance to take out sovereign.
Although I don’t agree with your example the renegade options are not necessarily pragmatic ones (tho they sometimes are) even with the council the option to “concentrate on sovereign” is not renegade, it is neutral. You get both para and ren points for taking it. The renegade option while exactly the same in consequences (as it should be IMO) is made suggesting different reasons. Intentionally letting the council die so humanity can seize power

But you already should know from the council fleet that Sovereign seems pretty much invulnerable, and the DA is on the way to sovereign. Saving the DA also means fewer Geth on your tail, which means longer/better sustained fire against sovereign.

It isn't all that clear a decision. The time consideration is valid, but so are the other tactical considerations, let alone strategic. Besides, when the decision is to be made, you have control of the citadel (you had to to be able to let the alliance fleet use the relays), so a reaper victory isn't quite as imminent.

You have temporary control of the citadel, Sovereign is attempting to take a back control as you speak. You have no idea how long you have but it isn't likely to be very long.

Again you only killed the immediate geth around the ascension so it could get away and the geth were already tied up.  If they attacked you they would get hit from behind by the citidel forces.
Edit: argh typos

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Barquiel wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

"Quick open the stations arms, maybe the fleet can take down sovereign before he takes control of the station"

You also don’t know how many ships you will lose and you only destroyed the geth immediately around the ascension.  All the other ships were still tied up fighting the geth.

But if Sovereign can control the citadel without an inside man...why did Sovereign need the conduit/Saren at all?

He needed Saren to access the Council Tower terminal.

The Conduit... that depends on if he knew what it was or not.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Which briefing?

You are told the mission before starting it.... I can't remember whether it is zaeed or TIM or a loading screen though off hand. You are told though that the contract is to save the factory.

[Zulu_DFA]

There is no briefing.

[Moiaussi]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Ok, I have to throw this in there. Every Shepard who saves the hostages, trusts that this madman Batarian terrorist won't blow the charges as soon as he leaves the building. He would be doubly tempted because this human Spectre who ruined all his plans could very well be right next to one at the time.

You also don't know he doesn't have a deadman switch set to blow the charges if he is killed. You also don't know for sure if you can one shot him without him setting off the charges.

Why, though, would he have the charges timed and additionally on a remote detonation? Isn't the timed detonation a lot riskier for him in case he gets delayed somehow?

[Manic Sheep]

Barquiel wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

"Quick open the stations arms, maybe the fleet can take down sovereign before he takes control of the station"

You also don’t know how many ships you will lose and you only destroyed the geth immediately around the ascension.  All the other ships were still tied up fighting the geth.

But if Sovereign can control the citadel without an inside man...why did Sovereign need the conduit/Saren at all?

Saren was supposed to make sure Sovereign could get to into the station in the first place. Keep the stations arms open until Sovereign got in, then close them again and lock up the mass relay so reinforcements couldn't come thru.Then hand full control of the station over to him so he could bring in the rest of the reapers. While powerful Sovereign is not immortal, he wanted to do this as cleanly and safely as possible. You got to Saren before he could hand full control over but Sovereign was already in and was attempting to retake control on his own. He didn’t need Saren for that part it would just have been allot easier, faster and less risky.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where do you get that the geth ships were going to break through and turn on you?

It's the Destiny Ascensionand Council that was going down. Not 'the entire Citadel Fleet is about to break.'

I doubt the DA could stop the attacking geth ships if they decide to defend their god.  Sovereign and these geth ships at the same time would be more problematic, I think (no element of surprise against the geth).

On what in-game basis would you think that?

Are the geth suddenly not engaged by the Council fleet? If they turn to engage the Alliance Fleet, are they not putting themselves under the same crippling flanking-fire from the Council fleet they were fighting that you fear the Alliance would suffer?

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is no briefing.

I'd find a link without the innane commentary, but it is probably appropriate given your rhetoric...

At 3:55 you can see a popup journal entry informing you that the mission stage is "Liberate the Refinery", described as "Find the entrance to the refinery and liberate the workers from the blue suns."

So actually the mission is to save the workers, and it is the game which tells you that, so presumably you do know from Zaeed and/or TIM.

[Zulu_DFA]

Liberate 'em by fire!



Also, Journal is peripheral, and bugged.



Also, doesn't change the fact that Zaeed was in charge, and as such had authourity to change mission parameters at any time.