195 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On what in-game basis would you think that?

Are the geth suddenly not engaged by the Council fleet? If they turn to engage the Alliance Fleet, are they not putting themselves under the same crippling flanking-fire from the Council fleet they were fighting that you fear the Alliance would suffer?

Whichever ships are currently on the DA would presumably be freed up against other targets. The DA is nearly dead. Main drive offline, main gun offline, shields failing.

And again why not shoot at the Geth harrassing it on the way in? Can't travel fast in a nebula anyway, and weapon ranges are greatly reduced, so may as well pick targets on the way to Sovereign.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On what in-game basis would you think that?

Are the geth suddenly not engaged by the Council fleet? If they turn to engage the Alliance Fleet, are they not putting themselves under the same crippling flanking-fire from the Council fleet they were fighting that you fear the Alliance would suffer?

No, the geth ships that attack the DA are not engaged by citadel ships

If the citadel fleet can't protect it's flagship, they can't stop these geth ships if they flank the alliance fleet

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquiel wrote...

No, the geth ships that attack the DA are not engaged by citadel ships

If the citadel fleet can't protect it's flagship, they can't stop these geth ships if they flank the alliance fleet

Then why don't they actually engage the 5th Fleet when the DA is blown up?

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Liberate 'em by fire!

Also, Journal is peripheral, and bugged.

Also, doesn't change the fact that Zaeed was in charge, and as such had authourity to change mission parameters at any time.

Really.. so if Zaeed said 'let's go open the Citadel for the reapers' you would have followed that order because it was Zaeed's mission and therefore his authority?

And you are tossing the journal out simply because it disagrees with you? Convenient....

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On what in-game basis would you think that?

Are the geth suddenly not engaged by the Council fleet? If they turn to engage the Alliance Fleet, are they not putting themselves under the same crippling flanking-fire from the Council fleet they were fighting that you fear the Alliance would suffer?

Whichever ships are currently on the DA would presumably be freed up against other targets. The DA is nearly dead. Main drive offline, main gun offline, shields failing.

That's not presumable at all, because the Destiny Ascension is not alone. It's part of the Citadel Fleet, not alone, and the rest of the fleet is still committed with the geth, and the geth with them.

Military forces have never had that sort of pull-back ability once comitted.

And again why not shoot at the Geth harrassing it on the way in? Can't travel fast in a nebula anyway, and weapon ranges are greatly reduced, so may as well pick targets on the way to Sovereign.

Presumably the answer is 'they can't'.

Now, as to why, the fact that ships have their main guns built facing forward, along the spine of the ship, meaning they have to fly at their target in order to be effective...

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Then why don't they actually engage the 5th Fleet when the DA is blown up?

Quit pulling 'facts' out of your ass. How do you know they didn't?

[Barquiel]

Manic Sheep wrote...

He didn’t need Saren for that part it would just have been allot easier, faster and less risky.

I don't know...but it doesn't really matter.

I save the Destiny Ascension...Joker: "DA you are all clear"..."Hackett: the citadel is opening. All ships move in."
We don't lose time.

[Barquiel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
No, the geth ships that attack the DA are not engaged by citadel ships
If the citadel fleet can't protect it's flagship, they can't stop these geth ships if they flank the alliance fleet

Then why don't they actually engage the 5th Fleet when the DA is blown up?

...because Bioware doesn't want to punish renegades:P

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Liberate 'em by fire!

Also, Journal is peripheral, and bugged.

Also, doesn't change the fact that Zaeed was in charge, and as such had authourity to change mission parameters at any time.

Really.. so if Zaeed said 'let's go open the Citadel for the reapers' you would have followed that order because it was Zaeed's mission and therefore his authority?

Don't be ridiculous. There is no Citadel on Zorya, Zaeed wouldn't say so, and if he did, I wouldn't comply (but not because it wasn't on his contract).

Moiaussi wrote...
And you are tossing the journal out simply because it disagrees with you? Convenient....

I'm tossing the Journal out because nobody looks into it.

But all that is irrelevant. The fact remains, that you can't justify Vido's escape by Zaeed's contract.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 novembre 2010 - 09:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Then why don't they actually engage the 5th Fleet when the DA is blown up?

Quit pulling 'facts' out of your ass. How do you know they didn't?

Because that would have been a rather relevant thing to either show or tell, and we never say/heard/were given any indication of it, ever, despite cutscene opportunities and ME2?

If your case was originally that a significant part of the Geth fleet was going to engage the 5th fleet if you didn't save the Council, and then nothing ever came of it when you didn't save the Council, that's a rather strong ex-post-facto that, well, no significant part of the Geth Fleet engaged the 5th Fleet.

[Manic Sheep]

Barquiel wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

He didn’t need Saren for that part it would just have been allot easier, faster and less risky.

I don't know...but it doesn't really matter.

I save the Destiny Ascension...Joker: "DA you are all clear"..."Hackett: the citadel is opening. All ships move in."
We don't lose time.

You still lose ships and fire power that could have been the difference between taking out Sovereign or not and could potentialy have lost time. Admittedly not many ships were lost but you wouldn't know how many you were going to lose or how long it would take before you made the call. I personally think it was a decision that was probably better left to Heckett since you couldn't see the battle and postion of all the ships yourself but I suppose he didn't understand the extent of the threat and had only just arrived.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 novembre 2010 - 10:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On what in-game basis would you think that?

Are the geth suddenly not engaged by the Council fleet? If they turn to engage the Alliance Fleet, are they not putting themselves under the same crippling flanking-fire from the Council fleet they were fighting that you fear the Alliance would suffer?

No, the geth ships that attack the DA are not engaged by citadel ships

If the citadel fleet can't protect it's flagship, they can't stop these geth ships if they flank the alliance fleet

Since Zulu already rather nicely brought up the problem of the first claim...

The second is a false. If the geth choose to concentrate on the DA, there's nothing that the Citadel Fleet can do to prevent that. That doesn't mean that the Geth are free to move around at will.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because that would have been a rather relevant thing to either show or tell, and we never say/heard/were given any indication of it, ever, despite cutscene opportunities and ME2?

If your case was originally that a significant part of the Geth fleet was going to engage the 5th fleet if you didn't save the Council, and then nothing ever came of it when you didn't save the Council, that's a rather strong ex-post-facto that, well, no significant part of the Geth Fleet engaged the 5th Fleet.

They show only a small portion of the overall fleet engagement, and only in snippets. The final battle isn't about the small details of the space battle. It is about Shepard's actions on the Citadel.

Any additional casualties would have been hidden in the overall numbers, which we are never given. If you want after the fact fallout though, we know that the Asari give up on their navy if the DA falls.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The second is a false. If the geth choose to concentrate on the DA, there's nothing that the Citadel Fleet can do to prevent that. That doesn't mean that the Geth are free to move around at will.

The geth ships that attack the DA are free to move around at will. Who can stop them?

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Don't be ridiculous. There is no Citadel on Zorya, Zaeed wouldn't say so, and if he did, I wouldn't comply (but not because it wasn't on his contract).

You said that it was Zaeed's mission and he could therefore change the parameters. If Vido had fled to the Citadel and you took him out there, would you be questioning going to the citadel? What you really mean is 'Its zaeed's mission so his changing the parameters in ways you agree with is ok with you.'

I'm tossing the Journal out because nobody looks into it.

So you claim it isn't cannon simply because you don't read it? ROFL.

But all that is irrelevant. The fact remains, that you can't justify Vido's escape by Zaeed's contract.

Really.. I didn't know that Vido was more dangerous than the reapers. Appearantly taking him down is more important than whether you should be able to trust one of your squad against a much greater threat. If the Council set you up like that, would you be as complacent?

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The second is a false. If the geth choose to concentrate on the DA, there's nothing that the Citadel Fleet can do to prevent that. That doesn't mean that the Geth are free to move around at will.

The geth ships that attack the DA are free to move around at will. Who can stop them?

Where do you get that they are moving at will?

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because that would have been a rather relevant thing to either show or tell, and we never say/heard/were given any indication of it, ever, despite cutscene opportunities and ME2?

If your case was originally that a significant part of the Geth fleet was going to engage the 5th fleet if you didn't save the Council, and then nothing ever came of it when you didn't save the Council, that's a rather strong ex-post-facto that, well, no significant part of the Geth Fleet engaged the 5th Fleet.

They show only a small portion of the overall fleet engagement, and only in snippets. The final battle isn't about the small details of the space battle. It is about Shepard's actions on the Citadel.

Then if you don't accept snipets (that Shepard can't even see!) as the overall summary of concerns and events, what is your Shepard's basis for believing that the DA is alone and the only thing holding up the Geth forces?

Any additional casualties would have been hidden in the overall numbers, which we are never given. If you want after the fact fallout though, we know that the Asari give up on their navy if the DA falls.

They give up their defense responsibilities two years after the DA falls. We are never told that the Geth roamed free on the battlefield when the DA fell, nor is it ever suggested in-game.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where do you get that they are moving at will?

Umm, they are spacecraft. It actually takes them energy to stop moving. Why do people have this strange concepts of engagement that seem to include enemy ships being glued to each other or chained together?

If a better target presents itself, there is nothing to prevent acquiring it.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The second is a false. If the geth choose to concentrate on the DA, there's nothing that the Citadel Fleet can do to prevent that. That doesn't mean that the Geth are free to move around at will.

The geth ships that attack the DA are free to move around at will. Who can stop them?

Where do you get that they are moving at will?

They could (DA damaged, no council ships around)...but I suppose they thought their "god" needs no help against some meatbags.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where do you get that they are moving at will?

Umm, they are spacecraft. It actually takes them energy to stop moving. Why do people have this strange concepts of engagement that seem to include enemy ships being glued to each other or chained together?

It also takes them energy to move and change relative positions. They also can only move in certain ways and certain directions: spacecraft are not omni-directional movers able to change easily and freely.

If a better target presents itself, there is nothing to prevent acquiring it.

And what makes the Alliance a better target when if they try and move they expose themselves to the very Council forces they're already fighting?

The Geth are already locked in a firefight with ships beside the DA. If they turn to maneuver away, they remove their own fire against the Council fleet and leave themselves open for the time it actually takes them to move. Disengaging isn't instant or easy or even always possible.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The second is a false. If the geth choose to concentrate on the DA, there's nothing that the Citadel Fleet can do to prevent that. That doesn't mean that the Geth are free to move around at will.

The geth ships that attack the DA are free to move around at will. Who can stop them?

Where do you get that they are moving at will?

They could (DA damaged, no council ships around)...but I suppose they thought their "god" needs no help against some meatbags.

There were ships around besides the DA.

I'll ask again: where did you get the idea they were moving around at will?

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquiel wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
No, the geth ships that attack the DA are not engaged by citadel ships
If the citadel fleet can't protect it's flagship, they can't stop these geth ships if they flank the alliance fleet

Then why don't they actually engage the 5th Fleet when the DA is blown up?

...because Bioware doesn't want to punish renegades:P

*Facepalm*

+1

All right, you got me.


Now, let's try this: Admiral Hackett is a bit competent at his job and can see difference between attacking the Geth in full force and holding them off with a few ships assigned for the task (in case the Geth get clear of the Citadel ships, which is never confirmed), while the main group engages Sovereign in full force.

And anyhow the ME2's accounts of the two outcomes of the Battle of Citadel confirm that if the DA was saved, the 5th fleet came a lot closer to defeat by Sovereign.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Then if you don't accept snipets (that Shepard can't even see!) as the overall summary of concerns and events, what is your Shepard's basis for believing that the DA is alone and the only thing holding up the Geth forces?

It isn't holding up the entire Geth navy. It is holding up the portion firing on it. If the DA was suddenly not there to fire on, do you figure those ships would simply call it a day and go home?

They give up their defense responsibilities two years after the DA falls. We are never told that the Geth roamed free on the battlefield when the DA fell, nor is it ever suggested in-game.

Look, try to understand this. EVERY SHIP ROAMS FREE. It is SPACE. Ships are not tied down, glued down, chained together, they move. Changing targets is simply turning the ship. It is in a nebula so all targets are relatively close. It it was an air battle instead of a space battle, not only would the planes 'roam free', but if they tried to slow down too much they would stall and crash.

This is not a land battle. This is not a surface naval battle. Please try to understand that.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Really.. I didn't know that Vido was more dangerous than the reapers. Appearantly taking him down is more important than whether you should be able to trust one of your squad against a much greater threat. If the Council set you up like that, would you be as complacent?

Taking Vido down was more important than lives of a few bystanders (who by the way were welcome to man up and help themselves out, since their captors got busy). And I was sure that helping Zaeed take his revenge would insure his trustworthyness on my mission (while paragons got, as usual, an easy persuasion way out).

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It also takes them energy to move and change relative positions. They also can only move in certain ways and certain directions: spacecraft are not omni-directional movers able to change easily and freely.

.....

actually if you look at how the Normandy handles, yes, many of them can change easily and freely. If they are so incapable of movement though, how did they acquire any targets in the first place? Everyone flew in and conveniently were pointing in the right directions?

And what makes the Alliance a better target when if they try and move they expose themselves to the very Council forces they're already fighting?

The Geth are already locked in a firefight with ships beside the DA. If they turn to maneuver away, they remove their own fire against the Council fleet and leave themselves open for the time it actually takes them to move. Disengaging isn't instant or easy or even always possible.

The Alliance's guns would be pointing at Sovereign instead of at Geth. Also, if Sovereign really is the only important target, then destroying anything shooting at Sovereign is the most important enemy goal.

Some Geth are engaging council vessels, but the ships shooting the DA are not. They are shooting the DA. Once the DA blows, their fire is removed from it and they would seek new targets. Sheesh, it isn't that complex a concept.