1770 réponses à ce sujet

[Dust_King]

Lard wrote...

No more hypocritical than saying it's okay for the 360 users to get everything but not the PS3 users.

Your right, except for the little fact that NO ONE said that.  

Simple fact: Two wrongs don't make a right.

360/pc owners not getting the comic doesn't make PS3 not getting ME1 any better, so demanding it's not released on other platforms is simply being bitter.

@Charmingcharlie: Cheers:D 

I think how they do the comic (branching paths, animation like inFamous (Now that would make it worthwhile), etc.) will affect if they can release a hard copy, still I think that dark horse could probably do a good job of it if there was a hard copy. I would like to see some names attached to the comic so we have some idea of quality or style.

[Lard]

Dust_King wrote...

Your right, except for the little fact that NO ONE said that.  

Simple fact: Two wrongs don't make a right.

360/pc owners not getting the comic doesn't make PS3 not getting ME1 any better, so demanding it's not released on other platforms is simply being bitter.

God, not you too.

The whole point of this comic is to provide parity, because PS3 owners are getting royally shafted by being denied ME1. For Bioware to say "this comic is to make up for PS3 not getting ME1" and THEN turn around and release the comic to everyone would be a second slap to the face after already denying us the first game.

[Dust_King]

 

Bioware says...

This interactive comic's initial release will be exclusive to PS3 owners who would be otherwise unable to realize the full effect of choice in the Mass Effect universe and will be included on the Cerberus Network.

I'm sorry Lard but I agree with what bioware says, it's not an apology for not getting mass effect, it's a solution. And in the end that's all I could want. So long as I have access to the full range of choices from Mass Effect I'm happy. Instead of trying to apologise or win favour through "exclusive content" they have offered a practical solution to the problem.

Honestly as long as they have tried to offer a fix for something that's out of their hands (ME1 rights tied to microsoft) then I'm happy. The only effect I can see a planed pc/360 release of the comic having on me is that it may make them try for a higher quality product (since it will be offered to a larger audience)

Basically as I've said I don't see any reason I should be concerned by things which don't effect me.

[Skilled Seeker]

This is a prime example of the difference between a fan (Dust King) and a fanboy that demands compensation like Bioware owes him anything (Lard).

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Knottedredloc]

Lard wrote...

Dust_King wrote...

Your right, except for the little fact that NO ONE said that.  

Simple fact: Two wrongs don't make a right.

360/pc owners not getting the comic doesn't make PS3 not getting ME1 any better, so demanding it's not released on other platforms is simply being bitter.

God, not you too.

The whole point of this comic is to provide parity, because PS3 owners are getting royally shafted by being denied ME1. For Bioware to say "this comic is to make up for PS3 not getting ME1" and THEN turn around and release the comic to everyone would be a second slap to the face after already denying us the first game.

WRONG! 360 and PC owners are the ones getting shafted!  Bioware basically had to ruin the entire story line because EA wanted to add PS3 users into the fold.  The results is a watered down re-boot for the second act of Mass Effect.  I am not blaming PS3 fans or sony for this, this is solely rest at the feet of EA/Bioware.  The whole "Shepard Dies" story line was a cheap ploy to make useless the choices from the entire first game.  Now they are trying patch something together for Sony crowd which is bound to alienate original ME fans.  Bioware has allowed EA's taint to stain Mass Effect.


BTW, since EA and Sony seems to be locked at the hip nowadays, don't be surprised is you see more exclusive content for the PS3 in Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc in the future.

Modifié par Knottedredloc, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:30 .

[Lard]

Knottedredloc wrote...

WRONG! 360 and PC owners are the ones getting shafted!  Bioware basically had to ruin the entire story line because EA wanted to add PS3 users into the fold.  The results is a watered down re-boot for the second act of Mass Effect.  I am not blaming PS3 fans or sony for this

.....You just blamed them, and then said you didn't. Be consistent.

Dust_King wrote...

I'm sorry Lard but I agree with what bioware
says, it's not an apology for not getting mass effect, it's a solution.
And in the end that's all I could want. So long as I have access to the
full range of choices from Mass Effect I'm happy. Instead of trying to
apologise or win favour through "exclusive content" they have offered a
practical solution to the problem.

Honestly as long as they have
tried to offer a fix for something that's out of their hands (ME1 rights
tied to microsoft) then I'm happy. The only effect I can see a planed
pc/360 release of the comic having on me is that it may make them try
for a higher quality product (since it will be offered to a larger
audience)

Basically as I've said I don't see any reason I should be concerned by things which don't effect me.

If we're getting shafted by not getting ME1 - which is the situation, there should be something to make up for it. Not a half-assed solution which is then offered to everyone who already have better options.

Modifié par Lard, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[Knottedredloc]

Lard wrote...

Knottedredloc wrote...

WRONG! 360 and PC owners are the ones getting shafted!  Bioware basically had to ruin the entire story line because EA wanted to add PS3 users into the fold.  The results is a watered down re-boot for the second act of Mass Effect.  I am not blaming PS3 fans or sony for this

.....You just blamed them, and then said you didn't. Be consistent.

Dust_King wrote...

I'm sorry Lard but I agree with what bioware
says, it's not an apology for not getting mass effect, it's a solution.
And in the end that's all I could want. So long as I have access to the
full range of choices from Mass Effect I'm happy. Instead of trying to
apologise or win favour through "exclusive content" they have offered a
practical solution to the problem.

Honestly as long as they have
tried to offer a fix for something that's out of their hands (ME1 rights
tied to microsoft) then I'm happy. The only effect I can see a planed
pc/360 release of the comic having on me is that it may make them try
for a higher quality product (since it will be offered to a larger
audience)

Basically as I've said I don't see any reason I should be concerned by things which don't effect me.

If we're getting shafted by not getting ME1 - which is the situation, there should be something to make up for it. Not a half-assed solution which is then offered to everyone who already have better options.

Uh, No I did not blame Sony or PS3 owners.  This is all on EA/Bioware...

[Lord Gremlin]

@Knottedredloc: Blame Microsoft. In fact, they're the only ones to blame here.

[Knottedredloc]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

@Knottedredloc: Blame Microsoft. In fact, they're the only ones to blame here.

You can't be serious? Blame Microsoft?!? Really?  You do realize that without Microsoft's backing there is a strong chance that there would be no Mass Effect at all?  You do know that Microsoft actually invested capital into the original Mass Effect IP and numerous other titles that helped Bioware become the company it was before being brought by EA?  Why on earth would anyone blame Microsoft or Sony for that matter?  This is a mess created by EA/Bioware...

[Dust_King]

I've never played any of the mass effect games (for obverse reasons) but are you suggesting that the PS3 release is responsible for ruining a story written over a year ago? I doubt the 'evil' EA had this plan laid out while ME2 was in the development stages. 

The reason I can see for killing the main character is simple, it gives justification for a skill reset and the use of the character builder. Basically they kill off then revive the character as an excuses to make them level one (or equivalent) again. I doubt EA has much influence on the games plot and I really don't think they had a PS3 release planned back when they started planning the game. 

Also Bioware was making great games long before microsoft and mass effect; Shattered Steel, the Baldur's Gate series, MDK2, Neverwinter Nights. Bioware is where they are today because they make good games.

If they didn't have microsoft's backing they would have sold more copies of their games (on ps2 etc.) and would have been a stronger independent company today rather than being bought by EA. 

[durasteel]

Lard wrote...

If we're getting shafted by not getting ME1 - which is the situation, there should be something to make up for it. Not a half-assed solution which is then offered to everyone who already have better options.

There will never be anything to make up for it.  Mass Effect was financed, in part, through a deal that kept the game off of the PS3.  That deal had good points and bad points, but there will be no apologies for it.  It's done, it's in the past.  That's business.

This is an issue concerning ME2, and only ME2.  The interactive comic is not designed to replace ME1, it is designed to enhance your enjoyment of ME2, to let you get the fullest experience from ME2, and that's it.  You may think that BioWare owes you some kind of exclusive content in the second or even the third game, or in the rumored spin off multi-player shooter, but they don't.  If you're correct that it was horrble and wrong for BioWare not to release ME1 on the PS3, then they owe your community a release of ME1.  That is an issue we can debate or agree upon, but it is not a ME2 issue.

The comic is not, actually, a half-assed solution.  ME2 is designed to reflect player choices from Virmire, Shepard's bedroom, etc.  If the comic presents those choices and records the player's choice, then it solves the problem.  The problem is not that you didn't play the first game, it is that no record exists of the choices you made, or would have made, in the first game so that those choices may be reflected in ME2.  The comic addresses that problem in an efficient manner, and also provides an intertaining interactive experience at the same time.

The problem that you are complaing about is that ME1 is not available for your platform.  The comic does not address that problem at all, which is why you regard it as a half-assed solution.  The interactive comic will not and cannot replace ME1, it can only serve as a way to enhance your enjoyment of ME2.  That's what other people want to use it for, as well - to enhance their enjoyment of ME2.  There is nothing wrong with that.

[uzivatel]

Dust_King wrote...

I doubt the 'evil' EA had this plan laid out while ME2 was in the development stages.

Its not like the PS3 release was decided yesterday.
EA acquired BioWare prior Mass Effect 1 release and the decision to move to multiplatform has been most likely made during acquisition talks in early 2007.

The reason I can see for killing the main character is simple, it gives justification for a skill reset and the use of the character builder. Basically they kill off then revive the character as an excuses to make them level one (or equivalent) again. I doubt EA has much influence on the games plot and I really don't think they had a PS3 release planned back when they started planning the game. 

Does not explain the decision to throw away most ME1 decision.

If they didn't have microsoft's backing they would have sold more copies of their games (on ps2 etc.) and would have been a stronger independent company today rather than being bought by EA.

They would be stuck like Obsidian.

Modifié par uzivatel, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[durasteel]

Dust_King wrote...

If they didn't have microsoft's backing they would have sold more copies of their games (on ps2 etc.) and would have been a stronger independent company today rather than being bought by EA. 

I think BioWare was still a relatively small company when Mass Effect went into development, and they relied upon distribution partners like LucasArts and Microsoft to finance their development. 

Mass Effect was a big, expensive game.  They very likely could have found other sources of funding, but all funding comes with a price.  Knights of the Old Republic, for example, came with a deadline from LucasArts.  That led BioWare to pass on the sequel, leaving Obsidian to deal with the LucasArts pressure with mixed results.  The Microsoft deal might have come down to having enough money and time to develop Mass Effect to BioWare's own standards.  Based on the result, it is difficult to say that was an entirely bad thing, even though it did ultimately mean that the PlayStation was excluded.

Fortunately, the merger with EA looks like it will provide BioWare with the time and money needed to develop games to their standards without excluding any platforms.  EA isn't perfect, but it seems to be a good deal for BioWare and, by extension, us.

[Dust_King]

uzivatel wrote...

Its not like the PS3 release was decided yesterday.
EA acquired BioWare prior Mass Effect 1 release and the decision to move to multiplatform has been most likely made during acquisition talks in early 2007.

Then why's it taken so long for them to release it on PS3 if it was planed from development? If you didn't like the choices bioware made in ME2 it doesn't automatically mean they were forced upon them. Maybe instead of looking for someone else to blame (EA, Sony, Communists) people could just accept that bioware can't please everyone and inevitably sometimes you will not agree with their choices. It's easy to blame someone else, but what's most likely to have happened is this is what bioware wanted to happen in the game and some people will always be disappointed/let down by whatever they do.

uzivatel wrote...

Does not explain the decision to throw away most ME1 decision.

Two reasons; it would be difficult to build the game if it could change so much depending on what choices you made in the last game. You can do a far better job integrating a handful of choices than you can putting in dozens from the previous game. The more choices have impact the more effort to make them fit into the story they eant the game to have and the weaker that story gets. Secondly not all the people who play have played the first one, locking a significant amount of content to newcomers is not a good move. Especially since even people who buy the game don't always finish it (even if they like it). I think some facts released by bioware show only half the people who start ME2 actually finished it.

So it would be difficult to fit too many previous choices into the story without affecting it's quality and you would alienate newcomers by locking a large amount of content from them.

[Lard]

durasteel wrote...

There will never be anything to make up for it.  Mass Effect was financed, in part, through a deal that kept the game off of the PS3.  That deal had good points and bad points, but there will be no apologies for it.  It's done, it's in the past.  That's business.

Do you work for Bioware? Anyway, not good enough.

durasteel wrote...This is an issue concerning ME2, and only ME2.  The interactive comic is not designed to replace ME1, it is designed to enhance your enjoyment of ME2, to let you get the fullest experience from ME2, and that's it.  You may think that BioWare owes you some kind of exclusive content in the second or even the third game, or in the rumored spin off multi-player shooter, but they don't.  If you're correct that it was horrble and wrong for BioWare not to release ME1 on the PS3, then they owe your community a release of ME1.  That is an issue we can debate or agree upon, but it is not a ME2 issue.

No, it's not concerning ME2 only, because we're directly affected by not getting ME1. There's no point to playing ME2 if you don't get the full experience of ME1, because you lose a good chunk of the context.

durasteel wrote...The comic is not, actually, a half-assed solution.  ME2 is designed to reflect player choices from Virmire, Shepard's bedroom, etc.  If the comic presents those choices and records the player's choice, then it solves the problem.  The problem is not that you didn't play the first game, it is that no record exists of the choices you made, or would have made, in the first game so that those choices may be reflected in ME2.  The comic addresses that problem in an efficient manner, and also provides an intertaining interactive experience at the same time.

It's a half-assed solution that gives a summary, not a complete experience.

durasteel wrote...The problem that you are complaing about is that ME1 is not available for your platform.  The comic does not address that problem at all, which is why you regard it as a half-assed solution.  The interactive comic will not and cannot replace ME1, it can only serve as a way to enhance your enjoyment of ME2.  That's what other people want to use it for, as well - to enhance their enjoyment of ME2.  There is nothing wrong with that.

But it doesn't explain why people who have played ME1 would want the comic. They're asking for a watered down version of something they've already been given the full experience for.

durasteel wrote...
Fortunately, the merger with EA looks like
it will provide BioWare with the time and money needed to develop games
to their standards without excluding any platforms.  EA isn't perfect,
but it seems to be a good deal for BioWare and, by extension, us.

Excluding half their audience from content is not a good deal for us.

Modifié par Lard, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:20 .

[SimJoseph7]

Lard wrote...
No, it's not concerning ME2 only, because we're directly affected by not getting ME1. There's no point to playing ME2 if you don't get the full experience of ME1, because you lose a good chunk of the context.

Don't be so sure about that. I played Mass Effect 2 (PC) first. I had never heard of the series before that. Had a great time. Ended up getting 1 after that.

It was good but I enjoyed 2 far more. Using Gibbed (sp?) Editor after for 2 as it was a bonus because I really didn't want to go through 1 again. Much like this "comic" is the new Gibbed Editor ++++++++ on steriods.

My 2 cents.

Joseph

[Emyer]

SimJoseph7 wrote...

Lard wrote...
No, it's not concerning ME2 only, because we're directly affected by not getting ME1. There's no point to playing ME2 if you don't get the full experience of ME1, because you lose a good chunk of the context.

Don't be so sure about that. I played Mass Effect 2 (PC) first. I had never heard of the series before that. Had a great time. Ended up getting 1 after that.

It was good but I enjoyed 2 far more. Using Gibbed (sp?) Editor after for 2 as it was a bonus because I really didn't want to go through 1 again. Much like this "comic" is the new Gibbed Editor ++++++++ on steriods.

My 2 cents.

Joseph

Not likely, Gibbed's Editor allows you to control every single decision/Plot Flag, I really doubt the comic will give you the option to make that many decisions, or else you'd be reading through a 5 hour comic or something before you even start the game...

[uzivatel]

Dust_King wrote...

Then why's it taken so long for them to release it on PS3 if it was planed from development? If you didn't like the choices bioware made in ME2 it doesn't automatically mean they were forced upon them. Maybe instead of looking for someone else to blame (EA, Sony, Communists) people could just accept that bioware can't please everyone and inevitably sometimes you will not agree with their choices. It's easy to blame someone else, but what's most likely to have happened is this is what bioware wanted to happen in the game and some people will always be disappointed/let down by whatever they do.

Exclusivity agreement with Microsoft, pretty common these days.

Two reasons; it would be difficult to build the game if it could change so much depending on what choices you made in the last game. You can do a far better job integrating a handful of choices than you can putting in dozens from the previous game. The more choices have impact the more effort to make them fit into the story they eant the game to have and the weaker that story gets. Secondly not all the people who play have played the first one, locking a significant amount of content to newcomers is not a good move. Especially since even people who buy the game don't always finish it (even if they like it). I think some facts released by bioware show only half the people who start ME2 actually finished it.

So it would be difficult to fit too many previous choices into the story without affecting it's quality and you would alienate newcomers by locking a large amount of content from them.

They did both - limit the number of choices and limit the impact of choices. And some of the choices did not transfer properly.
Maybe you are right and it was meant to be half assed from the start, but why make it one of the selling points of the franchise?

edit: thats sounds too negative ... its probably just that the promises and expectations were too high and the actual game underdelivered in this very area

Modifié par uzivatel, 19 novembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[Dust_King]

uzivatel wrote...

Maybe you are right and it was meant to be half assed from the start, but why make it one of the selling points of the franchise?

Because being complex and detailed doesn't mean something's good. Ambition's all well and good but it isn't as important as quality in the finished product. The developers might have intended for most choices to continue having impact throughout the series, but realised that doing this would weaken the story and ruin accessibility for newcomers.

What it comes down to is the impact of choices is one of the franchises selling points, but the developers decided story and accessibility were more important selling points. Why have massive chains of consequences when they end up carrying little weight due to poor integration into the story?

It's the difference between writing one story, writing a dozen or so variations of that story and writing hundreds of variations. It becomes impossible to make sure all the different choices end up meaningful and make sense.

But continuity of the choices was a selling point because no one else was really doing it, because it would be difficult to do properly. Bioware struck a good balance and that became a selling point

[uzivatel]

Dust_King wrote...

Because being complex and detailed doesn't mean something's good. Ambition's all well and good but it isn't as important as quality in the finished product. The developers might have intended for most choices to continue having impact throughout the series, but realised that doing this would weaken the story and ruin accessibility for newcomers.

The thing is, the quality of the imported stuff is not exactly great. It feels funny that Shepard happens to run into all those minor characters, but its not really important as it does not change anything.

What it comes down to is the impact of choices is one of the franchises selling points, but the developers decided story and accessibility were more important selling points. Why have massive chains of consequences when they end up carrying little weight due to poor integration into the story?

It's the difference between writing one story, writing a dozen or so variations of that story and writing hundreds of variations. It becomes impossible to make sure all the different choices end up meaningful and make sense.

But continuity of the choices was a selling point because no one else was really doing it, because it would be difficult to do properly. Bioware struck a good balance and that became a selling point

I dont see how it impacts accessibility of the game. Newcomers would be stuck with default Shepard or given the option to select some key decisions at the start of the game ... something the game was originally meant to do.

Since you are claiming you did not play any ME game, how can you write they struck good balance? 

Modifié par uzivatel, 19 novembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[gethslayer7]

Emyer wrote...

SimJoseph7 wrote...

Lard wrote...
No, it's not concerning ME2 only, because we're directly affected by not getting ME1. There's no point to playing ME2 if you don't get the full experience of ME1, because you lose a good chunk of the context.

Don't be so sure about that. I played Mass Effect 2 (PC) first. I had never heard of the series before that. Had a great time. Ended up getting 1 after that.

It was good but I enjoyed 2 far more. Using Gibbed (sp?) Editor after for 2 as it was a bonus because I really didn't want to go through 1 again. Much like this "comic" is the new Gibbed Editor ++++++++ on steriods.

My 2 cents.

Joseph

Not likely, Gibbed's Editor allows you to control every single decision/Plot Flag, I really doubt the comic will give you the option to make that many decisions, or else you'd be reading through a 5 hour comic or something before you even start the game...

yea but gibble is hard to use for an online 360 player

[Dust_King]

uzivatel wrote...

Dust_King wrote...

Because being complex and detailed doesn't mean something's good. Ambition's all well and good but it isn't as important as quality in the finished product. The developers might have intended for most choices to continue having impact throughout the series, but realised that doing this would weaken the story and ruin accessibility for newcomers.

The thing is, the quality of the imported stuff is not exactly great. It feels funny that Shepard happens to run into all those minor characters, but its not really important as it does not change anything.

What it comes down to is the impact of choices is one of the franchises selling points, but the developers decided story and accessibility were more important selling points. Why have massive chains of consequences when they end up carrying little weight due to poor integration into the story?

It's the difference between writing one story, writing a dozen or so variations of that story and writing hundreds of variations. It becomes impossible to make sure all the different choices end up meaningful and make sense.

But continuity of the choices was a selling point because no one else was really doing it, because it would be difficult to do properly. Bioware struck a good balance and that became a selling point

I dont see how it impacts accessibility of the game. Newcomers would be stuck with default Shepard or given the option to select some key decisions at the start of the game ... something the game was originally meant to do.

Since you are claiming you did not play any ME game, how can you write they struck good balance? 

If it hadn't struck good balance then it wouldn't have got good reviews. (or there would be a massive amount of whining) 

If the game you bought only let you access a small portion of the possible stories and much of the content was locked unless you'd played the previous game would you feel like you got a fair deal?

I'm not saying it couldn't have been done well, I'm saying it would have been much more difficult to get the story to work well for what is essentially a gimmick. 

[xODD7BALLx]

lmao, BW gives some information that in more ways than 1 clears up some questions we had about the PS3 version of ME2, yet still people find a way to go all out with their nerd rage and entitlement issues.

[Razor_Zeng]

Lard wrote...

durasteel wrote...The problem that you are complaing about is that ME1 is not available for your platform.  The comic does not address that problem at all, which is why you regard it as a half-assed solution.  The interactive comic will not and cannot replace ME1, it can only serve as a way to enhance your enjoyment of ME2.  That's what other people want to use it for, as well - to enhance their enjoyment of ME2.  There is nothing wrong with that.

But it doesn't explain why people who have played ME1 would want the comic. They're asking for a watered down version of something they've already been given the full experience for.

This is the reason I would want the comic: So I can try out different things in ME2 without having to play through ME1 another dozen times just to get different results. Also means I am not stuck playing the default renegade Shep you get when you start a new character in ME2.

Its an options thing. More options = good.

I don't care if the PS3 get it sooner then everyone else. I would like it too. Im not demanding it though. If it happens it happens, if it doesn't? .. Oh well.

Modifié par Razor_Zeng, 20 novembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[10 Steps Back]

Gah you people are still at it why don't we all just agree to disagree okay. I'm sure the people making the decisions aren't going to listen to us unless they see results that hit closer to home than people on the internet claiming that "I've got the power".