179 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

tmp7704 wrote...
I think it depends on what exactly you choose to apply the analogy to. If it's specifically about existence of loot and such then certainly, there's jumping to conclusion going on here. Some other aspects, not so much.

True true. My statement only holds water in regards to loot. That's not to say there isn't any jumping to conclusions in other matters though. But there it's more like hearing that there will be carrots in the dish and then deciding that carrots will make the entire steak taste horrible because of it, despite the fact that there's plenty of ways a good chef could make carrots a great part of the meal.

The food analogy really stuck to me for some reason... I think it is because it's lunch time...

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Dave, you win at life. For the sense you make, and for your myriad jockstrap examples.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 07 novembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Dave of Canada]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Dave, you win at life. For the sense you make, and for your myriad jockstrap examples.

You can compare everything to jockstraps.

[addiction21]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Dave, you win at life. For the sense you make, and for your myriad jockstrap examples.

You can compare everything to jockstraps.

Not waffles and dont you dare do it.

[Lukertin]

tmp7704 wrote...
If getting daggers in every cabinet sucks because the loot tables created originally are **** and fail, then maybe a better route is to do these loot tables in way that gives more interesting drops. Not to axe the loot altogether and go all "yay, it's streamlined nao!"

Granted, the axing is easier. And as long as at the end of day the idiots still pay the same money for their smaller meals, then why care.

But even with randomized loot tables, people will complain about how the loot table 'screwed' them over by constantly rolling items they don't want/need (a la WoW), the majority of items will still be relatively useless compared to what you can get or have equipped (a la Diablo 2).  Only it will be worse than Diablo 2 or WoW because you can't grind the same places over to try the loot tables again.

I think the system introduced in ME2 is actually really good for the type of game Bioware makes.  They could implement a more randomized system for upgrades / accessories and I think that would be a great middle line that simplifies a lot of things but retains the choice/ personalization aspects.

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Improving loot tables can only go so far.

That's hardly a reason not to do it at all. Everything about a game can only be improved so far.

And in some cases it can be improved to the point where a game becomes pretty much built around such "only possible to improve so far" feature. Diablo and Torchlight come to mind as example of what can be done with loot.
 

Less loot means that less loot is trash

Less loot simply means less loot. 90% of it still falls to Sturgeon's law like everything else.

[errant_knight]

I tell you one thing, next time someone suggests that they might do something that seems limiting and counter productive, I'm not going to say 'No, they'd never do that. Why would they do something like that?' as I have in the past.

[casedawgz]

Pretty much agree with everything Dave of Canada has been saying. Also, loving the new Mario avatar.

[Dave of Canada]

tmp7704 wrote...

Diablo and Torchlight come to mind as example of what can be done with loot.

Though in Diablo you're killing enemies by the score, enemies who respawn and can be farmed for hours on end for said loot. This cannot happen in Origins or Dragon Age 2, where you're limited to looting cabinets and drawers with the occasional enemy drop that isn't simply a poultice or money (good items are always dropped by the same enemies at the same spot).

Though Diablo also falls into this sort of gimmick, though quite slower due to the farming nature of the game. You're killing people prancing around, most likely farming a specific area (Bhaal runs or the Secret Cow Level come to mind) ignoring all possible loot until something shiny drops.

This isn't very different from the system introduced in Origins, the only difference is that instead of ignoring a Dagger or two you're simply ignoring Cracked Full Helm of Eternal Full Helmetness.

Say Diablo limited loot, trimming around say.... umm... umm... *thinking of a number* 70% of the loot, you'd only be recieving the items you're looking for or the items you have a use for. There's no purpose for those grey / white items after a certain level, it's just there to be ignored on the ground. Every player only really cares about are those good items.

Less loot simply means less loot. 90% of it still falls to Sturgeon's law like everything else.

I'd disagree but we'd be going in circles.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 novembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Dave, you win at life. For the sense you make, and for your myriad jockstrap examples.

You can compare everything to jockstraps.

I might have to start using jockstraps as part of ridiculous examples in real life. I'm going to need to work on keeping a straight face though D:

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Though in Diablo you're killing enemies by the score, enemies who respawn and can be farmed for hours on end for said loot.

This is true, but does it make a single, non-farming romp through Diablo dungeon not enjoyable in itself? Especially your first run, when you start with nothing and work your way up? (or down) That's what you could compare a playthrough of DAO/DA2 to, and it shows this doesn't need to be miserable experience for which the only hope to "fix it" is to axe it altogether.

Say Diablo limited loot, trimming around say.... umm... umm... *thinking of a number* 70% of the loot, you'd only be recieving the items you're looking for or the items you have a use for. There's no purpose for those grey / white items after a certain level, it's just there to be ignored on the ground. Every player only really cares about are those good items.

But didn't you make an argument just couple posts back, how upping the loot tables results in nothing but upping what becomes "the new white/grey"? So i'm not sure what this reduction of :trash loot" would be supposed to achieve. Certainly not overall improvement in quality, by your own argument.

Also, this will delve into psychology i'm afraid, but going by experiments (Skinner's box etc) the "useless" white and grey drops work as extra incentive for the player to keep playing. To put it simply, studies shown that having good things arrive at predictable intervals (say, every time you kill a foozle) results in subject being less interested in the activity overall.

Less loot simply means less loot. 90% of it still falls to Sturgeon's law like everything else.

I'd disagree but we'd be going in circles.

It can be (in a way) verified through simple mental exercise. If you limit the loot all way down to single item, are you positive you'll be able to make this item appeal to every single player who plays your game?

If not, what makes you believe reduction is the way to go? When less drops translates to less chances overall to provide something the player will find both up to their tastes and matching the particular build/needs they happen to experience on given playthrough?

[Anarchosyn]

You're missing something in your analysis:



ME 1: Bioware was independent.



DA:O development: Bioware was independent.



ME 2: Bioware was a subsidiary of EA.



DA 2: Bioware is a subsidiary of EA.



Now reflect on your initial question again and see if any new perspectives come to light.



All that aside, I never really felt ME was all that "hardcore" and ME2's world better better realized in my opinion (sure, mechanics were cut but the *world* was deeper). No clue what's up with DA. It's obviously been nerfed but to what end? I'll tell you when I buy it on launch day.

[Dsentinel]

WALL O' TEXT

[Ympulse]

Anarchosyn wrote...

You're missing something in your analysis:

ME 1: Bioware was independent.

DA:O development: Bioware was independent.

ME 2: Bioware was a subsidiary of EA.

DA 2: Bioware is a subsidiary of EA.

Pretty much this. Everything we complain about can be summed up in three symbols.

$$$

Modifié par Ympulse, 07 novembre 2010 - 09:53 .

[soteria]

There's no purpose for those grey / white items after a certain level, it's just there to be ignored on the ground. Every player only really cares about are those good items.

Actually, not entirely true. They made them useful by making it so you could only craft better items out of mundane, unenchanted items. Not that some items aren't genuinely vendor trash, but it's certainly possible to make the loot a lot more interesting with a sufficently robust system. Of course, that would have to come at the expense of something else.

[Yrkoon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

One must simply view Dragon Age as a fine steak with a lot of access fat, once you trim the fat it'll look smaller but without the fat you're only getting into the finest part of said steak.

I like some excess fat on my steak.

I  like grill lines on my steak, too.  And I like my steak to be  seasoned.  Also,  a good steak  is to be part of a good  meal - which includes a side dish or two  (potatoes, salad etc) and a choice beverage.  I expect a calorie count of 1500+, otherwise I feel like  someone "cut corners".  Dragon Age Origins was  5 course meal.  It was the Thanksgiving dinner of Games.


And you know what?  Unlike some people,  I *don't* want  DA2 to be 'Fat Free' DA:O.    I'm not on a 'Diet'.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Nighteye2]

Bio Addict wrote...

Well you're a lot more civil then most of the other haters, I'll give you that. I'll only add that Bioware isn't stupid, I'm sure they have a marketing department and the changes they make to DA2 are likely to draw in more then just 10 -20% new players.

From the large niche where they have hardly no competition into the mainstream segment where there are already a whole lot of games competing?

[LTD]

Yo dawg, we herd you like soap opera so we removed game from your game so you can woo digital ladies while you woo digital ladies.

[Tiax Rules All]

Yrkoon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

One must simply view Dragon Age as a fine steak with a lot of access fat, once you trim the fat it'll look smaller but without the fat you're only getting into the finest part of said steak.

I like some excess fat on my steak.

I  like grill lines on my steak, too.  And I like my steak to be  seasoned.  Also,  a good steak  is to be part of a good  meal - which includes a side dish or two  (potatoes, salad etc) and a choice beverage.  I expect a calorie count of 1500+, otherwise I feel like  someone "cut corners".  Dragon Age Origins was  5 course meal.  It was the Thanksgiving dinner of Games.


And you know what?  Unlike some people,  I *don't* want  DA2 to be 'Fat Free' DA:O.    I'm not on a 'Diet'.

I applaud your counter metaphor sir. Bravo

[Aermas]

Yrkoon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

One must simply view Dragon Age as a fine steak with a lot of access fat, once you trim the fat it'll look smaller but without the fat you're only getting into the finest part of said steak.

I like some excess fat on my steak.

I  like grill lines on my steak, too.  And I like my steak to be  seasoned.  Also,  a good steak  is to be part of a good  meal - which includes a side dish or two  (potatoes, salad etc) and a choice beverage.  I expect a calorie count of 1500+, otherwise I feel like  someone "cut corners".  Dragon Age Origins was  5 course meal.  It was the Thanksgiving dinner of Games.


And you know what?  Unlike some people,  I *don't* want  DA2 to be 'Fat Free' DA:O.    I'm not on a 'Diet'.

 WIN

Modifié par Aermas, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

This is why the food metaphors are bad. People like Yrkoon can say that they're taking away the excess fat, grill lines, and seasoning, or whatever.

And people who like the fact things are removed can say they're doing away with the bad french fries, overcooked baked potato, mushy vegetables, stale bread, or whatever.

Unlike Yrkoon, the people in the latter category don't want "filler" with their meal, they don't like being "stuffed" with "bad food."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[Nerevar-as]

Problem is, they´ve taken a former "filler" meal instead of preparing a new one filler free. I like both types, but not one turned into the other. Most of the things I dislike from DA2 are more art choice than gameplay, however. Companion armor, over the top combat animations or rogues crossing the half step that separeted them from ninjas are more visual problems to me.



It´s a risk they take, turning from part of the fanbase trying to get others. It seems ME2 didn´t suceed that much there, but with the Reaper saga finishing in ME3 there shouldn´t be much backfire, but I wonder how well a ME4 would fare if ME3 is too much like ME2.

[In Exile]

Anarchosyn wrote...

You're missing something in your analysis:

ME 1: Bioware was independent.

DA:O development: Bioware was independent.

ME 2: Bioware was a subsidiary of EA.

DA 2: Bioware is a subsidiary of EA.

Jade Empire: Bioware was independent.

No inventory. Console game. Beat-em-up combat. No party members (except one follower one auto). No leveling system (3 statistics). No skills (acquired combat styles through the story). Cinematic presentation. Good and evil metre.

Yup, that game was the same kind of trash EA always wants, years early. I'm amazed how EA can travel through time.

[Leonia]

Perhaps we should move on to beer metaphors.