179 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Your justification is circular.  Instead of presupposing "gameplay" now you're just presupposing "main action".

It's a definition. It justifies my usage of the term. I thought that is what you meant. This isn't the same thing. I am saying gameplay is the name of the set which contains this set of features, which is different from "story" which containts that set of features, and is different from UI which containts that other set of features, and the union of these three sets is the full content of the game.

As to why I consider the set of features I do gameplay, it falls back to an issue of coherence. It seems to be the case to me that in RPGs, there are three distinct metaphysical realities we experience. Combat, non-combat, and UI.

[ArcanistLibram]

ME1 and DAO are enjoyable games, but they're deeply flawed.

ME1: Weapons are incredibly inaccurate without heavy investment in skills, the level cap is unreachable in one playthrough, bonuses from skills increase incredibly slowly, the cover system is terrible, I still don't understand how hacking works with tech powers, you can't have sex with Garrus, you can't have sex with Tali, the inventory is cluttered to hell and back and driving around in the Mako is incredibly frustrating.

DAO: Oh boy... the abilities are full of speedbumps or unnecessary powers, the origins have absolutely nothing to do with the Blight or any real impact on anything that happens throughout the game, the Blight itself is completely irrelevant to 80% of the game, a bunch of plot threads are picked up and left to linger because they're optional and can't be allowed to affect anything important (i.e., the Dark Ritual) and the only Origin that gets some sort of satisfactory resolution is the human noble. Everybody else gets a powerpoint presentation. It would have been better if DAO had been about the human noble uniting her/his homeland against the darkspawn invasion and ultimately returning to Highever to rebuild or marrying the Queen/King.

Which seems to be what Dragon Age 2 is doing.

ME2 fixed combat, but didn't take the equipment change far enough, made the Hammerhead as bad as the Mako in its own way and didn't give the squad members enough screen time.

So far, DA2 is all solution.

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...

Yrkoon wrote..

No they didn't.

There's  virtually nothing in BG1 that wasn't expanded on in bg2.

There were lots of features removed.

No, there was exactly ONE thing.  and it wasn't removed, it was reduced:  the number of  outdoor forest areas.

In Exile wrote...

More companion banter/dialogue -check, check

Some people think this is a terrible move.

Some people think RPGs suck, too.  We're not really discussing those people though

In Exile wrote...

Romances- check

Waste of resources. Bioware shouldn't waste time producing companion NPCs. They should focus on quests and writing for non party NPCs and let us create and RP our own party.]

LOL  again with the fringe minoriy opinions.  I can show you dozens upon dozens of threads, and mods, for multiple games from players who swear otherwise.  Again, I'm not here to discuss the fringe

In Exile wrote...

More ACTUAL open endedness  (even in the main plot path) - Check  (choice of faction siding; skipping the underwater city if you want to)

We lost free roam. We were forced to move along a linear path of chapters instead

What?   Have you ever even played BG2?  What do you call Windspear Hills?  and Umar Hills? and the D'arnise Keep, and Trademeet?  and all those  dozens of other areas outside and  inside  Athkatla that aren't even part of the main plot and which could be done in chapter 2 or 3 or 6?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[fchopin]

What can i say, the combat is terrible, reminds me of an Asian sword slashing game.
I don't see any resemblance to DAO so far, maybe i am blind, the dark spawn look terrible.
I don't think this game is for me but i will wait and see what develops in the next few months, reminds me of ME2 and i will never let myself have another experience like that.

[Yrkoon]

Fortlowe wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Beside, they're keeping the gameplay the same for DA:O.

This is only true if somehow you don't count dialogue or inventory management as gameplay.

And I'd love some justification for that position, given that both takeplace inside the game.

Is the time spent dressing for and commuting to and from work counted towards your salary? No, but it is something that's necessary to go to work. Same thing, with the inventory.

Another analogy for this thread, eh?

I'd say packing your bags, gathering your boarding pass, going to the airport,  taking a seat on the plane, then flying to the Carribbean is part of your vacation....

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Terrible analogy.  As any decent chef will tell you, fat = flavour.

If he trims the fat off the steak, he's going to brush it with butter the entire time it's over the heat.

Hey, i'm not a cook. Apparently Dave isn' one, either

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Exile wrote...

There are people out there that think BG2 failed in dramatic fails to live up to BG1, which was the true herald of RPG greatness.

Reactionaries!

And proud of it.

Being right yourself isn't always popular.

Some minor editing there.  But hey, at least you didn't object.  That's what people typically do.  "IM NOT LIKE THAT."  But people are, the labels work!  

[addiction21]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Terrible analogy.  As any decent chef will tell you, fat = flavour.

If he trims the fat off the steak, he's going to brush it with butter the entire time it's over the heat.

Hey, i'm not a cook. Apparently Dave isn' one, either

That is NO excuse for not knowing how to properly cook a steak...  I knew it was a bad joke and there was nothing you could do.

[WuWeiWu]

BrotherWarth wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

This is BioWare...they got this.

That argument doesn't work for me. I thought ME2 was shallow and brought little to the franchise, and the DAO DLC was a waste of money for the most part. Just because they have done good games doesn't mean they can't make bad ones.

Let me guess, you play the ME series as if it is a non-story driven sandbox-styled futuristic RPG straight from the hands of the traditional straight-laced RPG Gods? ME2 did a few things I didn't agree with (namely axing the weapon mods in favor of research [I proposed a system in another thread that was a more fleshed out version of this that included both methods for biotics [i]and[/i] weapons]) but the game, and the whole series up to the current day, is friggen' amazing. Friggen'. Amazing. You can not like it because you weren't a fan of the evolution of game-system design philosophy that went in to a large portion of the game, but you can't say it was a bad game because you didn't like it.


The people who rage on these forums about how DA2 sucks, or DA2 doesn't have anything on DA:O, or how DA2 is some corporate sell-out of the franchise (duuude, I totally knew about DA before they went all mainstream. Rad, right?), or how DA2 is Dynasty Warriors and not DA or DA2 at all or how DA2 is a fantasy-based ME2 or blah blah blah...

Those people need to take a step back and look at themselves. Seriously? Logic generally uses a series of premises to reach a conclusion, or uses a series of premise>conclusion to reach a desired conclusion (desired conclusion... logic... desired... conclusion... lulz). While you could arguably call it very loose inductive reasoning, taking random crap you (where you is the average person as referenced above) pull from who-knows-where and using that to reach some form of sound conclusion are delusional. Wait 'till the game comes out, or more information is released. I suspect BioWare is trying to evolve the way story is told through games, and the way RPG's are handled within the gaming community - I applaud them for that, and I for one am ecstatic for all of the change  I have seen thus far. DA2 will not be DA:O; what DA2 will be, though, is Dragon Age. Get over yourself (where, again, 'yourself' is the average person as referenced above).

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:25 .

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...
No, there was exactly ONE thing.  and it wasn't removed, it was reduced:  the number of  outdoor forest areas.

No, the entire hub was re-arranged in terms of how linear progression through the game was an how on-rails the plot was. The number of generic outdoor areas are just a consequence of this dramatic shift in philosophy.

Some people think RPGs suck, too.  We're not really discussing those people though

That's just irrelevant. There is a very strong contigent of people who consider themselves True RPG ™ fans who believe that IWD style games are the proper way to present RPGs, and losing the ability to create your own party is a major negative.

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is that there are people who believe this.

Just like there are people who believe DA2 > DA:O.

ILOL  again with the fringe minoriy opinions.  I can show you dozens upon dozens of threads, and mods, for multiple games from players who swear otherwise.  Again, I'm not here to discuss the fringe

That's awesome. And I can track down a dozen threads that ask for romances to be removed. Hell, I can track down a thousand threads on how poor an RPG is gameplay wise, which would tell us that changing DA to an action RPG is the right move.

So then clearly what Bioware is doing with DA2 is brilliant

But be my guest - pretend you're the supreme arbiter of all things quality.

What?   Have you ever even played BG2?  What do you call Windspear Hills?  and Umar Hills? and the D'arnise Keep, and Trademeet?  and all those  dozens of other areas outside and  inside  Athkatla that aren't even part of the main plot and which could be done in chapter 2 or 3 or 6?

Yes, I did. I don't believe a word of what I'm saying. I told you already. But there was a minority who believed that BGII was a step back, just like there is a forum minority is who believes DA2 is a step back.

[Rojahalive]

I like the OP's incoherent rant about how his delving into UI interface menus for hours = in-depth RP world. Wut?

[Aermas]

All this talk about steak & no one has brought up A-1 Steaksause??? It doesn't matter how you like you steak smear some A-1 on it & it takes like heaven- if heaven was made of bovine

[upsettingshorts]

Aermas wrote...

All this talk about steak & no one has brought up A-1 Steaksause??? It doesn't matter how you like you steak smear some A-1 on it & it takes like heaven- if heaven was made of bovine

I bet you like your steaks well done. 

[Meltemph]

Huh... I always considered ME1&2 as a 3rd person shooter/RPG, the only changes they made is to what degree, I thought. Dragon Age well, I always viewed its interface as a point and click... at least of the PC. I mean, you see people all the time like to oversimplify a game into a very specific sub-genre, but when you are actually talking about the specifics, all I see it as is a excuse to generalize w/o giving near any substance to that description.



Either way... The way the TC talks about the game, and others, makes me wonder if I played the same game. I mean, I thought it was good and all, but the pedestal some of you place it on, it is like you make the designers of that specific game, Gods among designers.

[AlanC9]

Yrkoon wrote...

In Exile wrote...

We lost free roam. We were forced to move along a linear path of chapters instead

What?   Have you ever even played BG2?  What do you call Windspear Hills?  and Umar Hills? and the D'arnise Keep, and Trademeet?  and all those  dozens of other areas outside and  inside  Athkatla that aren't even part of the main plot and which could be done in chapter 2 or 3 or 6?

In Yrkoon's defense --strange, I know -- "linear" isn't what I'd use there.

Calling BG2 free-roam is ludicrous nonsense, of course, but not having free-roam doesn't mean the game is linear. How about "plot-driven"?

[Gavinthelocust]

Rojahalive wrote...

I like the OP's incoherent rant about how his delving into UI interface menus for hours = in-depth RP world. Wut?

Sums up what I was gonna say.

[Meltemph]

Well without being to hard on BG2... They needed all those side quests because the plot was pretty lackluster on its own(ToB, however, I thought was quite awesome).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fortlowe wrote...

Just becuase the inventory is as deep as the Grand Canyon doesn't mean I should absolutely have to spend hours calculating statistics and comparing numerous items, to get an acceptable result.

I never claimed you should.  All I was saying was that that activity is only sensibly described as gameplay.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

It's a definition. It justifies my usage of the term. I thought that is what you meant. This isn't the same thing. I am saying gameplay is the name of the set which contains this set of features, which is different from "story" which containts that set of features, and is different from UI which containts that other set of features, and the union of these three sets is the full content of the game.

Alright.  But your definition still fails to be useful because it contains an interpretive clause.  "Main Action" isn't something about which everyone is going to agree.

As to why I consider the set of features I do gameplay, it falls back to an issue of coherence. It seems to be the case to me that in RPGs, there are three distinct metaphysical realities we experience. Combat, non-combat, and UI.

Do you think there are different metaphysical realities in the real world?

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

No, the entire hub was re-arranged in terms of how linear progression through the game was an how on-rails the plot was. The number of generic outdoor areas are just a consequence of this dramatic shift in philosophy.

In Exile's completely right about this.

At the start of BG2, after you escape Irenicus's dungeon, where can you go?  Can you just wander out of Athkatla in a direction of your choosing to see what you find?

No.  You absolutely cannot do this.  But this was a core feature of BG1.

[Aermas]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Aermas wrote...

All this talk about steak & no one has brought up A-1 Steaksause??? It doesn't matter how you like you steak smear some A-1 on it & it takes like heaven- if heaven was made of bovine

I bet you like your steaks well done. 

Medium well, why?

[AlanC9]

Aermas wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Aermas wrote...

All this talk about steak & no one has brought up A-1 Steaksause??? It doesn't matter how you like you steak smear some A-1 on it & it takes like heaven- if heaven was made of bovine

I bet you like your steaks well done. 

Medium well, why?

You really don't know? (I'd link Saul Karrath audio here if I had the clip handy)

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No.  You absolutely cannot do this.  But this was a core feature of BG1.

And since then it seems to have been Bioware's goal to allow the player freedom within the narrative at the expense of freedom from the narrative.

[soteria]

Medium well, why?

Because overcooking it and drowning it in steak sauce are the two most common ways of destroying the natural flavor of a perfectly good steak.