179 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Steak, properly: Medium or cooler. Add salt. That's all you really need.

Exceptions: If you must eat steak at a disreputable establishment, raise the temperature of the meat based on how much you don't like the look of the place.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

And since then it seems to have been Bioware's goal to allow the player freedom within the narrative at the expense of freedom from the narrative.

I suspect we disagree about what the "narrative" encompasses in an RPG.

Upsettingshorts wrote...



Steak, properly: Medium or cooler.

Medium is still horribly overcooked.  In my opinion.

[Meltemph]

 Not a huge fan of steak personally...  About the only steak I like is Philly style.  Fish is much better.

Modifié par Meltemph, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

In Exile wrote...

Anarchosyn wrote...

You're missing something in your analysis:

ME 1: Bioware was independent.

DA:O development: Bioware was independent.

ME 2: Bioware was a subsidiary of EA.

DA 2: Bioware is a subsidiary of EA.

Jade Empire: Bioware was independent.

No inventory. Console game. Beat-em-up combat. No party members (except one follower one auto). No leveling system (3 statistics). No skills (acquired combat styles through the story). Cinematic presentation. Good and evil metre.

Yup, that game was the same kind of trash EA always wants, years early. I'm amazed how EA can travel through time.

Not to mention Dead Space which was developed internally at EA had no inventory or player progression.  Wait...

[Onyx Jaguar]

I prefer Steak well done. If I liked the taste of blood I'd work at an Iron mine

[StonerMkII]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Anarchosyn wrote...

You're missing something in your analysis:

ME 1: Bioware was independent.

DA:O development: Bioware was independent.

ME 2: Bioware was a subsidiary of EA.

DA 2: Bioware is a subsidiary of EA.

Now reflect on your initial question again and see if any new perspectives come to light.

Not entirely correct.
Bioware became a subsidiary of EA around October 2007. Origins was released in November of 2009.
Thus, the last 2 years of DA:O's development occured under EA rule.
2 years was plenty of time for EA to kick all the puppies and change everything about Origins.
They did not. Therefore there is no logical argument that supports the idea that changes are entirely EA's fault.

Surely EA can make some calls, but it's silly to assume that Bioware wouldn't have made any changes at all on their own.

Dave of Canada wrote...
Less loot means that less loot is trash, you're given more choice on what is actually worth keeping and
using instead of ignoring looting altogether because you know there's nothing of use in that locked crate.

Indeed, after my second playthrough I gave up completely on locked chests and stopped bringing Low-level-death-prone-Leliana anywhere. Her lock picking skills did not make up for her habit of getting killed by a lone genlock.

Personally I'd prefer all the gold-fodder crap just be replaced with.. ya know... gold.

/quick derail

Id like to refer you to the Command and Conquer series, where EA singlehandedly destroyed a 15 year series and alienated 99% of the "hardcore" fanbase with their abomination C&C 4. Its my personal opinion that EA destroys everything they touch. I still sigh every time i see Bioware and EA together on the DA game box.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Please there were people who said that EA destroyed Command and Conquer with Tiberian Sun

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In my opinion.

... who are you, and what did you do with the real Sylvius?

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

And since then it seems to have been Bioware's goal to allow the player freedom within the narrative at the expense of freedom from the narrative.

I suspect we disagree about what the "narrative" encompasses in an RPG.

I do too, but here's an attempt at drawing a line:

The narrative in this case encompasses the writer's explicitly or implicitly intended course of the story.

Players are free to create their own narrative even within such a rigid framework, but the writer's intended path exists even if we intentionally ignore it for the purposes of in-character roleplaying. 

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medium is still horribly overcooked.  In my opinion.

Yeah, but I don't internally grimace when someone orders it in my presence.

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I prefer Steak well done. If I liked the taste of blood I'd work at an Iron mine

Well done steak has no taste.  It's been cooked out.  And there's no blood in steaks at all.  Cattle is exsanguinated before the butchering process.  Those are red juices of fat, sodium, and water that have taken on the color of the cells they used to inhabit, and they're what contains a significant amount of flavor.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:27 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

True it lacks the sort of high iron taste of normal blood, but when my options are no taste versus whatever the hell that taste is. Its no wonder I find generic american food boring

I'd prefer my American food to take risks and go places.  Its hard to do that with something as hard to mold as Steak

THIS ENTIRE POST IS A RIDDLE

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

tmp7704 wrote...

... who are you, and what did you do with the real Sylvius? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png

I did that on purpose.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I do too, but here's an attempt at drawing a line:

The narrative in this case encompasses the writer's explicitly or implicitly intended course of the story.

Players are free to create their own narrative even within such a rigid framework, but the writer's intended path exists even if we intentionally ignore it for the purposes of in-character roleplaying. 

My definition - the narrative is everything that happens within the game world, regardless of whether the designers intended it or the game is aware of it - would include such things as the PC's thoughts, of which the designers are necessarily ignorant.

Using your definition, yes, I can see how the games do seem to be trying to force the players to take part in the story as the writers intended it.  And I'm sure how you can see I think this is a mistake.

[AlanC9]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I prefer Steak well done. If I liked the taste of blood I'd work at an Iron mine

In that case you should never order it in a restaurant. If Anthony Bourdain is to be believed, any substandard meat a kitchen receives is saved for well-done, since anyone who orders steak that way doesn't know how food is supposed to taste and therefore wouldn't know the difference.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Using your definition, yes, I can see how the games do seem to be trying to force the players to take part in the story as the writers intended it.  And I'm sure how you can see I think this is a mistake.

Sure.  There's a clear division in the RPG genre between games - using my definition - that offer the player freedom within the narrative and freedom from the narrative.  Games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 are in the latter category, though in my opinion their stories suffer for it. 

There's a clear tradeoff being made between story and freedom.  I imagine your point is to say that there doesn't have to be.  I'm not so sure that's true. But we were always going to disagree at some point in this argument.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 are in the latter category, though in my opinion their stories suffer for it.

The pre-written stories, perhaps.  The overall narrative (narrative is what "story" means, after all) could potentially be stronger by allowing the player greater control over his character (ostenisbly the protagonist within the "story", regardless of definition).

[upsettingshorts]

Right, but that's where we get into our usual argument again about a certain cat.

Anyway, I'm hungry for steak now. I haven't had a good one in a while.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Sir JK]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There's a clear tradeoff being made between story and freedom.  I imagine your point is to say that there doesn't have to be.

It's because one cannot tell a predetermined story about something one does not know. So the writers cannot involve anything the player chooses for himself in the story itself (or well... very little). Possibly if the choices are of several ones presented. But true freedom cannot be predetermined.

The alternative is of course to simply provide a world and allow the player to make his/her own story within it. Possibly providing some plots and storylines that the player can choose to involve in his story.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

The alternative is of course to simply provide a world and allow the player to make his/her own story within it. Possibly providing some plots and storylines that the player can choose to involve in his story.

This is exactly what I think CRPGs should do.  This is what I think BioWare has done with its best games.

[upsettingshorts]

In case you couldn't tell, I was trying rather deliberately to avoid raising points that I know Sylvius would dispute.

We've been down this road before. I'm more interested in common ground, and failing that, mutual understanding.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 novembre 2010 - 07:48 .

[Fortlowe]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

Just becuase the inventory is as deep as the Grand Canyon doesn't mean I should absolutely have to spend hours calculating statistics and comparing numerous items, to get an acceptable result.

I never claimed you should.  All I was saying was that that activity is only sensibly described as gameplay.

Gamesmanship perhaps. Not gamelplay. Are you Legion?

[robotnist]

Sir JK wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
You know, to continue this meal analogy, while you're praising the chef for trimming the fat so that you can then pay the same amount of money for much smaller "but all the finest!" parts of the steak, one can wonder why not take away said fat but replace it with delicious sauce, instead.

If getting daggers in every cabinet sucks because the loot tables created originally are **** and fail, then maybe a better route is to do these loot tables in way that gives more interesting drops. Not to axe the loot altogether and go all "yay, it's streamlined nao!".

Of course, what people are currently doing is hearing that the chef is trimming the steak and then assuming there is no sauce provided, with no indication of that having been given. To expand on the analogy further.

(i read page 1 so far)

i abandoned this poor thread in a dumpster, sorry, i'm back to continue the dialogue and i REALLY appreciate the beyond decent folk and comments going on in this thread.

i will read all the other pages but i had to comment on stuff Dave said as well as thee above quote.
i know theres a good portion of players who played DAO and would love nothing more than a GFX upgrade and new treasures, NPCs and upgraded UI and under the hood systems included with DA2.


-on 'streamlining'
i understand what dave is saying, and for all intents and purposes it is 100% correct for him. not for me.
but, what matters is, for bioware, is it the right movement for the majority of paying customers. because when it all comes down to it bioware is a business that wants to service what the majority wants to keep the company flaoting and, in fact, climbing.

but thats not going to change how Sir JK feels about DAO and myself. i know that wanting that same feeling again is very futile in this day and age of streamlining every RPG of the past.

ive been so disappointed with so many RPGs as of late. it happened to Fable 3 as well. so many large and fun features were ripped right out of Fable 2 to make way for 3.

and while i agree that the shooting is better in ME2 for shooter fans, is that ultimately all thats better?

also as a side not when i use the term hardcore, i dont mean to adpot the meaning that is tossed around mainstream media as of late. i just mean its a game that services RPG fans over any other genre, thast all i meant.

so, i just re-installed ME1 today. to see if i was forgetting something, maybe i was wrong about ME2 and ME2 is just a much better game. i really don't agree with that statement though.

ME1 has something that ME2 is missing and that is the rewarding loot. now i know that many players would prefer better shooting mechanics over loot any day. but i loved all the different armor, weapons and mods in ME1. i liekd that it was like a 9 "star" system that had a tinge of diablo "loot whoring" going on. a very fin randomness that was VERY rewarding to me.

and that same system of reward which is what motivates me in games like ME and DA, seems now to be threatened of heavy change or removal. it was completely removed in ME2 for a set weapon pickup placement in the maps of ME2 and a very lite crafting segment of the game. and when you pick up money in ME2 it makes it feel so generic when the numbers are always well rounded. there just wasnt a reward system in ME2 in place that motivated me to play past one playthrough.

even the maps in ME2 feel like they were crafted by a level designer that worked ONLY on shooters for most of his life. they were very linear, they kept you moving forward with the occasional side room with a computer that could be hacked for 3000, 5000 or 7000 credits... lol

i felt like i was playing a 3d contra the maps were so boring to me.

but for folks who loved games like gears of war etc ( which i do), maybe thats all they needed was great shooting mechanics, a cover system and a smathering of RPG lite added on top... (are we still cooking?)

i understand if bioware wants to take one of their IPs and mass marklet it a bit more. i feel like ME1 was Alien and ME2 was Aliens.

so my last point in this long whine fest, what are we worth? those of us who have been around since Baldur's Gate... waiting on the forums for a game called Neverwinter Nights. those of us who, i shall now evoke a bit of an ego, those of us who helped build bioware by buying the "hardcore" RPGs of the past. (hardcore RPG- a game that features more RPG elements than any other element). the ones who bought Jade Empire, SW: KotOR and, hell its been a few years, Mass Effect... are we now the minority of the bioware fans? and this doesnt mean i assume i'm the "correct" fan, or that my opinion has more value.

only that where and how did bioware start making games that werent for Baldur's children? was it a Star Wars game that brought a group of people seeking a REAL star wars universe that was clearly missing from either mainstream media or the underground arenas?

was It Mass Effect that made those fans and so many more, like moths, fly to a flame that looked beautiful to them but once they got here they realized the flames controls were out of whack because every time they tried to fly into it they realized they had to roll the dice to see if it happened? because i can only imagine that Baldur's children didnt mind that aspect so much of Mass Effect.

and maybe thats where it all started with ME. it was the culmination of what Bioware wanted to be in the future, and the last taste of what their past was... now they realize they must feed all of the bio-children, the fast paced, shooter, star wars fans, as well as the book weilding D&D underlings that love numbers and randomized loot.

you know, it could be bioware sweating this out, maybe they know there must now be a sacrafice to make all of their children happy. maybe they always wanted to be this way, maybe it was a conclusion that they came to abruptly and without warning. if we were all D&D fans here, maybe DA and ME never would have changed, but thats impossible, i know this.

but, am i wrong to still hope, that of all the things that have changed within bioware, the feeling i got playing Dragon Age: Origins didn't have to be altered? that it would be built upon and not reconstructed? if the Dr's wanted it this way, whether it was a fan inclination or not, then theres no more questions. but if it was something that had to be done to grow their company in the eyes of stockholders or the demands of EA then i guess thats what makes me sad.

if most of you want something i dont, i won't be selfish and demand huge treasure boxes around every corner dropping daggers +1 along with 10 silver and a character sheet that has 30 different empty slots for equipping gear. but, hypothetically, what if most of us want this nerd pony to keep on trotting? is there a way to know? the sad thing is, bioware really won't know until they make the 3rd game of both series'. because if were all disappointed with DA2 (which i doubt), they won't know until we don't buy DA3 and by then it will have been over.

i guess i can just hpe that if bio is making DA2 more action like ME2 that Obsidian will pick up the toolset and make a badass, daggers to the guills, stat sniffing, spell huffing RPG fuggfest, i will be happy to have 2 styles of this world. but, if i'm left with an action world, i will be sad... while playing DA2.

yeah i know, get a blog (life).... 


thanks to those of you still involved with the dialogue, great thread because people have put aside their egos and spoke their minds.

***THUS SPOKE NERDATHUSTRA!!!***

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Medium is still horribly overcooked.  In my opinion.

Steak, properly served, should attempt to escape my plate.

[Aermas]

Steak without A-1 Steaksauce is worthless

[Addai]

Yrkoon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

One must simply view Dragon Age as a fine steak with a lot of access fat, once you trim the fat it'll look smaller but without the fat you're only getting into the finest part of said steak.

I like some excess fat on my steak.

I  like grill lines on my steak, too.  And I like my steak to be  seasoned.  Also,  a good steak  is to be part of a good  meal - which includes a side dish or two  (potatoes, salad etc) and a choice beverage.  I expect a calorie count of 1500+, otherwise I feel like  someone "cut corners".  Dragon Age Origins was  5 course meal.  It was the Thanksgiving dinner of Games.


And you know what?  Unlike some people,  I *don't* want  DA2 to be 'Fat Free' DA:O.    I'm not on a 'Diet'.

Heh, I was thinking the same thing.  The same sort of thing I think when people tell me that fat in steak is bad.  Namely, get the frack away from my plate.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'd rather use the not properly sanded wood analogy. There's a bunch of splinters hanging off and sometimes pieces of the wood cannot be salvaged

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...
Heh, I was thinking the same thing.  The same sort of thing I think when people tell me that fat in steak is bad.  Namely, get the frack away from my plate.

It's actually a better metaphor than folks were thinking.  Steak with the fat marbled in so you get a taste of its flavor in every bite?  That's awesome.  Everyone likes that.

Fat in a big lump on the side that is chewy gristle? That's the stuff that gets trimmed.

Aermas wrote...

Steak without A-1 Steaksauce is worthless

I'm going to pretend you're trolling.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 novembre 2010 - 07:09 .