35 réponses à ce sujet

[AstonMW]

 This has been bothering me.

Couldn't 2-3 mages or only 1 create an inferno along with perfect storm and paralysis explosion and keep them up thus easily destroying the bulk of darkspawn horde? And then melee guys just mop up the rest...

Even the terrain and positioning in the fortress as shown in the cutscene were perfect for those spells.
It was a perfect bottleneck.
There is no doubt that if those spells were used the bulk of darkspawn if not all of them would have been destroyed without an even need for an army except to lure darkspawn in.

Are those spells only reserved for the main character who has yet to acquire them? Or did Bioware just failed in explaining this?

Modifié par AstonMW, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Wotannanow]

There weren't many mages at Ostagar. I think it was a half-dozen, perhaps a few more. But we know, at leat one of the mages had a different agenda than having a care for the outcome of the battle.

[Trenrade]

If it were that simple you would never have a plot would you. Thats just like how my primal mage couldn't just melt the locks or bars in the prison with a spell

Modifié par Trenrade, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[AstonMW]

Perhaps the mages were a part of Loghain conspiracy since we couldn't see a single spell used in that cutscene, and Duncan was specifically talking about what mages can do when you talk to him in the mage tower.

[ashwind]

Well, there are those Darkspawn Emissaries and I am pretty sure that there are more emissaries than mages so a battle of spell slinging will be greatly in favor of the darkspawn forces.

[Mnemnosyne]

The Ostagar location was an excellent defensive position, which made it questionable for story purposes.  The Ferelden and Grey Warden forces were required to use incredibly poor tactics in order to make the loss possible.

The mages could have countered any threat from darkspawn emissaries by making liberal use of Mana Clash, while the ground troops could have used any one of numerous defensive formations to hold that pass indefinitely by having organized ranks that could pull back behind a second line when they needed a rest and so on.  While they could have used powerful offensive spells, it would likely have been better to save their magic purely for countering darkspawn magic that could break formations.

Consider for example a roman three-line formation with breaks in each line, so that the front line can always retreat behind the next line if they start to weaken, and the line behind them can seamlessly close up to make a new front line.  Even the ancient greek phalanx with minimal fancy tactics would have been sufficient to hold the line at Ostagar for days, possibly weeks.  Keep in mind these tactics were developed around two thousand years before plate armor was used (the greek phalanx dates from the 8th or 7th century BC) - it would seem silly to suggest such tactics don't exist in Ferelden when they already have full plate armor.  The ogres, it should be noted, would be a problem for this - but unless they had a line of ogres make a coordinated charge, a single ogre charging into such a formation would have little more effect than a single mounted combatant charging into a formation of that sort.  Especially if the archers and ballista were used to specifically bring down anything larger-than-human in the darkspawn ranks.

So while a loss was necessary for story purposes, the battlefield should have been better designed in order to allow for that loss to make sense in any way other than 'the Ferelden army is inconcievably incompetent' when looked at by anyone with reasonable understanding of ancient army tactics.  If a path from the Tower of Ishal to the rear ranks of the army was present, they could have had the darkspawn come out of the tower, catching the humans in between their forces, without having to have the humans use absolutely no military tactics whatsoever.

[Sarah1281]

There were only seven mages at Ostagar. We don't know whether or not the templars standing guard there were in any way holding tehm back. We don't know how powerful the mages were or what kind of magic they were capable of. Additionally, you need to remember that many of the more powerful spell combinations and tactics you can use in battle (including constant magic by downing lyrium potion afer lyrium potion) is really more game mechanics than reality.

[Wulfram]

Unfortunately, the mages' level was scaled to the player, and thus they didn't have access to any of the good area of effect spells

[TJPags]

Even if we assume there were 7 mages spamming Inferno, blizzard, tempest, earthquake, that was a lot of darkspawn . . . it's not going to stop them all from advancing. And mana does run out.



Once the darkspawn close, the lines of men suffer losses - losses that make holes in the lines, requiring the men in the second or third lines to step up to the first. That eventually means, you have no third line, then no second line.



As for Ogres - I think they'd be more effective charging such a line than a single man on a horse. Even if they weren't, I'd think one of those rocks they routinely toss at my party would open a gap in the line - requiring the movement forward I described above.



And as mages get killed by being hit by rocks, or arrows, or just get tired and run out of mana, those spells their spamming stop less and less darkspawn.



Hold indefinitely? I very much doubt it. Hold long enough for a flank charge? That I can see.

[Mnemnosyne]

Losses to a well-disciplined force using good tactics would be minimal, as opposed to the massive losses the disorganized darkspawn would suffer attempting to break such an organized line.  And it's clear from the pre-battle cutscene that the human forces numbered enough to stand shoulder to shoulder in a phalanx formation across the entire pass, and have dozens of relief lines behind them, allowing them to hold out for a huge amount of time.  Not indefinitely, but certainly a matter of days, since there were clearly enough troops to rotate in a fresh front line every hour or so, thus preventing fatigue and the minimal losses they would take from seriously hampering their overall eforts.

Basically they really should have emphasized something unexpected that the darkspawn did, such as attacking from the rear after coming up through the Tower of Ishal, while having the army behave with good tactics, so we didn't get the sense that the main reason they lost was total lack of discipline, formation, or any sort of in-combat coordination.

Even if my estimations are considerably better than the reality of the situation, the fact that the humans did not maintain any sort of formation or discipline amongst their ranks, and fought with no coordination, as disorganized as the darkspawn themselves, means that they held out much, much less than they otherwise could have.  At minimum, organized lines in that location would have allowed for a considerable portion of the army to make an organized retreat and survive.  Only being caught by surprise from the rear could possibly account for a disciplined force being almost completely obliterated in such a location.

[TJPags]

Well, keep in mind that, gameplay-wise, those with Caillan were fighting with the expectation that they were going to be relieved by a flanking force. This strategy does require that the holding force occupy and keep the attention of the Darkspawn.



Now, is this why they broke formation to fight in, essentially, chaos? Probably not, that was probably there to show us the "larger then expected Darkspawn horde" and the direness of the situation. However, I would argue that, from a darkspawn perspective, it's more likely that a large scale attack, which involves the largest number of darkspawn focusing on that holding force, would come if the holding force seemed in disarray, than if they were forcefully holding their lines.



So there are likely gameplay reasons for what we saw that have SOME validity.



I'm also not sure that there were quite as many pikes/sword and shield men in the human lines as you think - seemed to me there were large numbers of archers, and a somewhat thin line of foot soldiers to protect them.



Final note - remember that the strength of the greek phalanx was actually it's depth - 6-8 lines deep, presenting a line of overlapping pike points (those of the second and even third lines as well as the first) pesented to the face of attackers. It was that depth which allowed them to stand against an assault, as those in the first line could not generally 'attack', but rather simply hold there spear forward and crouch behind their shield, as a human wall. It was those in the second and third lines who would actually see what was happening, and thrust their pikes AT someone, rather than holding it steady and hoping someone ran into the point.

[Elhanan]

Besides Wynne and Uldred, the other mages appeared to be as inexperienced as the Warden. Still, at least one Fireball and Grease spell would have been a good choice.

[nos_astra]

Koyasha wrote...
So while a loss was necessary for story purposes, the battlefield should have been better designed in order to allow for that loss to make sense in any way other than 'the Ferelden army is inconcievably incompetent' when looked at by anyone with reasonable understanding of ancient army tactics.  If a path from the Tower of Ishal to the rear ranks of the army was present, they could have had the darkspawn come out of the tower, catching the humans in between their forces, without having to have the humans use absolutely no military tactics whatsoever.

But with this knowledge, how can you change the Battle of Ostagar to make actually sense and still make Loghain's decision to retreat sound ambiguous (so his claim the battle was unwinnable could be valid or not, how would he even know that from his position)? And what's the point of sending someone to light a beacon if this battle could be a matter of days?

It's very interesting for me, as I was trying to write down a playthrough and get rid of all the plot holes.

As for why the mages are not used: I like to think that conjuring up a blizzard or a thunderstorm would quickly drain the mage (unlike in the game where you are insanely powerful and templars pretty weak compared to that). They are also feared and under a tight reign, so closely guarded by templars and certainly not allowed to fire area of effect spells at will. There are only seven mages, some of them would probably be healers, so that's four or five mages who would join the battle.

Preparing the ground with something easily inflammable and have the mages lighting it, sure.

Modifié par klarabella, 08 novembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[Elhanan]

heh! I am for just casting Grease spells on all the Darkspawn bearing torches in the distance....

[Mnemnosyne]

klarabella wrote...

But with this knowledge, how can you change the Battle of Ostagar to make actually sense and still make Loghain's decision to retreat sound ambiguous (so his claim the battle was unwinnable could be valid or not, how would he even know that from his position)? And what's the point of sending someone to light a beacon if this battle could be a matter of days?

It's very interesting for me, as I was trying to write down a playthrough and get rid of all the plot holes.

As far as I have ever been able to tell, Loghain couldn't tell the battle we see in-game was unwinnable (even if we assume that it was), because the entire point of the beacon was because he could not see the battlefield himself, he needed the beacon in order to alert him that the time was appropriate to attack.  If he could see the battlefield, he could have determined the right moment to attack on his own.

But if you wanted to make it seem like a clear betrayal at the moment, then somewhat justified later if you talk to Loghain, it would actually be rather easy.  Redesign the appearance of the tower a bit so that it has external battlements (This would make sense anyway: have you ever looked at the top room of the Tower of Ishal and wondered 'so, where exactly were we supposed to watch for the signal from?  There's walls all around!  As it's designed, the tower is a completely useless military structure because it has no battlements for archers to fire from and no vantage points to observe from.) and then have Loghain see the darkspawn on the tower (the ones that ambush the Warden and Alistair immediately after they light the beacon).  If Loghain saw those darkspawn, he would have immediately known that the darkspawn were able to attack the army from the rear and there was no way they could hold.  It could easily be a quick glimpse - something that no one else notices - and thus leave it entirely questionable as to whether he was telling the truth or not.

Even if the battle could take days then, the beacon would still be important for timing the attack, to inform Loghain that the darkspawn forces have fully committed to the fight.  Important because if they haven't fully committed, Loghain's charge could be caught in a bad position and destroyed.  And if they just said, for example, wait six hours, who's to say the darkspawn wouldn't discover Loghain's position by then and attack?  The charge has to come at the earliest appropriate moment, the beacon would be relevant even if the defenders were properly set up to hold the line for days of fighting.

[testing123]

Elhanan wrote...

heh! I am for just casting Grease spells on all the Darkspawn bearing torches in the distance....

Heh, that's brilliant.

[MKDAWUSS]

Keep in mind the Chantry was there also.

[Persephone]

AstonMW wrote...

Perhaps the mages were a part of Loghain conspiracy since we couldn't see a single spell used in that cutscene, and Duncan was specifically talking about what mages can do when you talk to him in the mage tower.

There was no Loghain conspiracy at Ostagar. :happy:

[Persephone]

sapientia24 wrote...

I would also just like to say that I don't think it matters if you have the best defense or not, sure if everything you planned actually goes off with no problems then you might be able to hold your own for a few hours a day or more.

I believe loghain had half of cailen's army and when he left with it, it meant the utter destruction of whats left of the army there

*Must not turn this into another Loghain hate vs. Loghain love thread*

[alschemid]

Persephone wrote...
*Must not turn this into another Loghain hate vs. Loghain love thread*

But it will turn into it sooner or later....

[Aigyl]

alschemid wrote...

Persephone wrote...
*Must not turn this into another Loghain hate vs. Loghain love thread*

But it will turn into it sooner or later....

Every part of the main story has a Loghain debate in there waiting to be brought out for the 600th time


To be honest, I don't think the the Ostagar battle was designed by Bioware with sound military tactics as the top priority. The cynic in me says:

a) The King's army gives up its high ground and mindlessly charges into the Horde because it makes a darn good cinematic. If that's the case then it was glorious.

The main reason to have the 'light the beacon' plan was just to have an excuse to give the Warden and Alistair an important job off of the battlefield. The level still feels epic as the plan has gone wrong and now the whole battle hinges on you getting to the top of the tower and saving Cailan and Duncan by lighting the beacon. Until it all goes pear-shaped.

Ostagar would actually be a lot more coherent if the beacon was cut out and the writers just stated somewhere that Loghain could see the battle.

[kyles3]

casting fire spells so close to a forest would have brought forth smokey the bereskarn.