128 réponses à ce sujet

[StingingVelvet]

Here's my issue: I have no idea what kind of game this is.  The previews talk about it being more action focused and we keep hearing "press a button and awesome things happen" and all that, but what kind of game is this?  Is it still a tactical RPG?  Is it more of a hack n' slash game now?  I honestly have no idea.  There is a massive gulf between DA:O tactical style combat and Mass Effect 2 style action and reflex combat, yet previews keep acting like they are similar enough to be compared without details.

I know the game is 4 months away.  I know there is a tendency to postpone detailed promotion until after the holiday games are out of the way.  Still, at 4 months away and with a pre-order deal that expires in January I feel like I should know on some level the basic gameplay of the title.

I don't.

Now, people might say "you should, there is a comment here that says X and one here that says Y" and that's fine.  I am just telling you though: the message is not getting across.  The previews are not informative, the comments on the forum I have read seem vague and "wait and see."  I would think people should know the basic gameplay style of the game 4 months out and a lot of people are utterly confused about it.  Every forum I go to has a DA2 thread and in every single one people have no idea how the game plays.

I would think this is a problem to be rectified.

[FellowerOfOdin]

All we know for certain right now is that the game will be more adjusted for consoles and some major features from DA1 will be cut out (e.g. visual companion customization) and we will see minor new things (e.g. the dialog wheel) and a new graphic style (good and bad, depends on your taste).

[EmperorSahlertz]

When are previews ever informative? Previewers are usually morons and should be fired for incompetence.

[upsettingshorts]

I think a huge source of the confusion is the confluence of the following factors, combined with the general lack of confirmed, publicly available information:

* The console version of DA:O was rather universally understood to be below par, certainly behind the PC version
* To deal with the failings of the console version, Bioware has introduced a push-to-attack button for consoles and redesigned the GUI to take advantage of the pros and cons of both platforms, but especially consoles
* To highlight their efforts in improving this below par version, they have made a point of emphasizing to previewers in the press, and in general, that the gameplay on consoles has been drastically improved.  This naturally leads PC gamers, twitchy at any possible reference to a multiplatform game being changed in any way to work better on consoles, to react negatively
* There is a concerted movement among the development team to encourage warriors and rogues to have visually-impressive moves on par with mages.
* The only gameplay videos that the public has seen so far are leaked fan videos of console gameplay. Ergo, even PC gamers starved for information are forced to rely on information those videos reveal that may either be misleading or completely irrelevant when it comes to the experience they will have on their platform of choice
* So far, all PC gamers have to go on in terms of how the game will play for them is developer comments that it is extremely similar if visually flashier.

Taken all together, I'd say that explains the problem.

Edit: Oh, and Bioware's marketing tends to highlight differences and downplay similarities, it seems.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 novembre 2010 - 01:18 .

[Malevolence65]

I agree with you, OP. I still think that they won't release a gameplay video before the preorder bonus cutoff date.

[In Exile]

The game is very likely DA:O "under the hood" which essentially means that it will continue to be a party-based RPG on the PC. On the console, it has been altered dramatically to feel more like hack&slash for several reasons, one of them being that (frankly) DA:O was not a very good port the first time around. It wasn't designed as a console game and that hurt it tremendously.

The general feedback is that if you play it on a console it feels very much like hack&slash.

DA:O was refered to an action RPG in its marketing campaign, but I think that's because the Bioware usage of this term is more along the lines of how much of a dungeon crawler the game is.

Your milleage will vary with the PC versus console version, with the PC looking like it's going to be largely the same (you can check out the UI thread for more) and the console being dramatically altered (any first impression thread talks about that).

One major change will be the perceived speed of combat and the animations. I'd wager if you pause & play you'd never notice, but the game is designed to look more visually impressive and play much faster in real-time.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
* To highlight their efforts in improving this below par version, they have made a point of emphasizing to previewers in the press, and in general, that the gameplay on consoles has been drastically improved.  This naturally leads PC gamers, twitchy at any possible reference to a multiplatform game being changed in any way to work better on consoles, to react negatively

I try to explain this whenever I get the chance, so here goes:

DA:O sucked on consoles. It wasn't just subar. If you played it by itself,  it was a bad game. If you played it after playing DA:O on the PC, it was an unplayable mess and a physical beating would be more enjoyable. It lacked the tactical camera entirely, you could only move companions using the stick (so no point & click to space out your party), several features of information were outright inaccesible (like which new items you got, what new codex entries you got, how much XP you had to level up or even what the approval rating of NPCs was).

The only hope Bioware has of not having this game flop is to tell everyone in earshot that they recognize DA:O was a steaming pile on the console and DA2 is nothing like it.

Honestly, I think PC users would be more comfortable with DA2 if they appreciated just how central the console version was to sales and how close Bioware is to losing that marketshare after DA:O.

The PC version will receive features designed with the console in mind. The new tactical camera is designed to work well on the console while retaining functionality on the PC. This will be true of many features. The console will be the focus, but that's just the reality of it being (i) the higher selling platform and (ii) the fact that DA:O was just a bad game for it, so Bioware has to desparately sell DA2 as different.

[StingingVelvet]

In Exile wrote...

The general feedback is that if you play it on a console it feels very much like hack&slash.

Yes, that seems to be how many previews sell it.  And yes, we have heard comments about the PC version being more true to the original, but how different can they really be?  Short development time and game developers being generally hesitant to spend money they don't have to I really wonder if the PC version can be all that different.

At the end of the day though it still comes down to: I don't know.

I don't want this thread to be about the PC version versus the console one, or even the game itself really.  The point of this thread from my perspective is that the basic fundemental information about how this game plays is not known.  That's scary when you're 4 months from launch and have dozens of preview articles released and a couple trailers.  Is it by design?  Is it a sign of no confidence?  Are they about to reveal more specifics?  Are they trying to get pre-orders in before they reveal how simplified it is?

I don't know, because the message isn't getting across to the gaming public about what Dragon Age 2 is.

[Sir JK]

Allow me to toss in another of those questions to consider: Are they deliberatley pushing forward the differences in the sequel, to put so much emphasis on them, just to make sure that people who didn't think DAO was perfect will even look at the game because ultimately it's not very different at all?



Remember that marketing, pretty much universally, begins with putting putting emphasis on differences and then finishes up revealing the strengths. This marketing phase is not directed to us core fans because we already follow the game. They don't need to attract our attention because they already got it. Soon will phase two kick in and that's when we start getting the marketing focus on us, sell the good old Bioware quality we associate with the name. Just not yet.

[Maria Caliban]

StingingVelvet wrote...

I would think this is a problem to be rectified.

The problem is the 'fans.' There is information out there, but it's buried under threads and threads of complaining and jumping to conclusions.

You want to know what the gameplay of DA II is?

Start up DA:O, play it. If you play in bird's eye view, zoom in a bit. Enter combat. Make the animations faster and add a bunch of new ones. These new ones will be 'awesome' and unrealistic. There will be lots of glowing things for the warrior and rogue.

Now end combat and talk to someone. A dialogue wheel pops up instead of a list. Pick an option - your PC says it aloud.

Now open your inventory screen. Try to take Alister's clothing off. You can't. Weapons, amulets, rings, and belts can be changes on a companion, but not the armor/clothing.

There, that's the gameplay. The same but with the above changes.

[Helena Tylena]

What Maria said. There's a lot of cosmetic changes, and the combat now goes at roughly 150%. A few tweaks here and there, but from what I have seen, the game is still very much Dragon Age.

[Ensgnblack]

The preview gameplays have been the beginning of the game where you are superhuman. THis is not indicative of the rest of the game where your powers are no longer magnified.



BW is not selling it as a hack and slash, a point the public may need to simply accept until we see gameplay from the middle of the game and not the beginning narration where Hawke is SUperman.

[TaHol]

Maria Caliban wrote...

There will be lots of glowing things for the warrior and rogue.

And after reading this I have a feeling I have to go and cancel my (already paid) pre-order. I thought they can't be so stupid they still keep that sickening effect-nonsense going on. But looks like it is concidered to look mighty. *enter lots of bad language here* I will not be able to play the game if it is filled with floating and moving and glowing effects. There is no Personal Annoyance Remover to take care of them. I hope people responsible for visual effects, or their boss who orders them to use such crap, will get a migraine too. Bad one. Would serve them right. End of story.

[Lord Gremlin]

In Exile wrote...

DA:O sucked on consoles. It wasn't just subar. If you played it by itself,  it was a bad game. If you played it after playing DA:O on the PC, it was an unplayable mess and a physical beating would be more enjoyable. It lacked the tactical camera entirely, you could only move companions using the stick (so no point & click to space out your party), several features of information were outright inaccesible (like which new items you got, what new codex entries you got, how much XP you had to level up or even what the approval rating of NPCs was).
 

Well, I can't say DAO on PS3 was a bad game overall, overall it was pretty good, but I definitely have to agree that a lot of control-related things were just broken and unfinished. Like, simply forgotten. Examples - pets can't be selected for control/tactics optimization (someone forgot to tune that, cause they're selected normally for healing etc.), approval rating bar can't be selected to see the exact number. As for codex and new items - Edge of Reality sucks at porting. Experienced people know how such things are handled on consoles. Look at FFXIII codex interface - it's easy to see what you have and haven't read yet, what are the newest entries etc. In DAO it was broken on basic level. On consoles TRADITIONALLY left stick scrolls through entries list and D-pad selects entries, while right stick scrolls entry text. In DAO some idiot managed to make both D-pad and left stick do the same thing - select entries with no way to scroll entries list and see which ones are new. This was outrageous, I was all shocked "you morons, left stick should scroll, D-pad select, WTF you did instead???!!!".
Yet I've bought all DLC and Awakening from PS store and preordered DA2. So I'm happy to see that Bioware reminding us in every preview/interview that console interface will no longer be broken on basic level compared to any other console game.

A reminder for Bioware: sticks scroll, D-pad selects. That's how everybody does it. NO, stick shouldn't select entries/items. And I would like to know what was the idiot at Edge of Reality who though it was a good idea to make both stick and D-pad select with no way to scroll? He wanted to differ from every other console game? Success: every other game works properly, DAO controls are broken. Bravo.

[StingingVelvet]

Maria Caliban wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

I would think this is a problem to be rectified.

The problem is the 'fans.' There is information out there, but it's buried under threads and threads of complaining and jumping to conclusions.

You want to know what the gameplay of DA II is?

Start up DA:O, play it. If you play in bird's eye view, zoom in a bit. Enter combat. Make the animations faster and add a bunch of new ones. These new ones will be 'awesome' and unrealistic. There will be lots of glowing things for the warrior and rogue.

Now end combat and talk to someone. A dialogue wheel pops up instead of a list. Pick an option - your PC says it aloud.

Now open your inventory screen. Try to take Alister's clothing off. You can't. Weapons, amulets, rings, and belts can be changes on a companion, but not the armor/clothing.

There, that's the gameplay. The same but with the above changes.

Sounds good, but again, that message is not getting across to people.  Laidlaw posting some cryptic snippets of info in a thread on the forum is not the same as telling everyone what kind of game this fundementally is in an official way.  I think they're so focused on selling the changes to console gamers that they forgot to tell people the basics.

[Sir JK]

But they're not telling us what game this is yet . They're just telling us what has changed. They haven't even begun telling us about the game yet. Which is why there is no official gameplay trailer yet and the fan videos are being taken down asap (because they're not a good demonstration of what the game actually is. Just how combat changed)

[upsettingshorts]

Sir JK wrote...
They're just telling us what has changed.

Behold! Marketing!

[Malevolence65]

I think they may be scared to show more stuff about the game. That's why they're putting it off.

[In Exile]

StingingVelvet wrote...
Yes, that seems to be how many previews sell it.  And yes, we have heard comments about the PC version being more true to the original, but how different can they really be?  Short development time and game developers being generally hesitant to spend money they don't have to I really wonder if the PC version can be all that different.

It won't be. The question is how Bioware can handle the presentation. The console needs to feel hack & slash. The PC needs to be tactica. All of that is UI, though. On PC, you can point & click & select multiple party members. On the console you can. On the console, you have optional auto-attack. On PC you just have auto-attack, where whatever combo attack you do on the console is automated.

These are all very simple features, and  it isn't hard to see how they can be implemented in a way that keeps the game the same.

The point of this thread from my perspective is that the basic fundemental information about how this game plays is not known.  That's scary when you're 4 months from launch and have dozens of preview articles released and a couple trailers.  Is it by design?  Is it a sign of no confidence?  Are they about to reveal more specifics?  Are they trying to get pre-orders in before they reveal how simplified it is?

I don't know, because the message isn't getting across to the gaming public about what Dragon Age 2 is.

But they did get their message across. Their main thrust (the one they desperately need) is that the DA:O console version is nothing like DA2 console. DA2 console is awesome, fun, magical, exciting, great combat, etc. etc.

That's the only message they need, because if that one fails to catch, the game will flop.

Sir JK wrote...

Allow me to toss in another of those
questions to consider: Are they deliberatley pushing forward the
differences in the sequel, to put so much emphasis on them, just to make
sure that people who didn't think DAO was perfect will even look at the
game because ultimately it's not very different at all?

Once again, it comes back to the fact the DA:O console version was absolutely crap. If you go out and tell your consumers that your new product will be exactly the same as the old product, and most of them thought the old product was bad, you're failing at marketing.

Yes, for us PC fans, hearing that DA2 is different is bad. But that's because our version didn't suck ass.

Make no mistake - the console version will not be like DA:O. The PC version will use a UI that works well for the console and is adapted to the PC. The animations will be designed for the console in mind. These are all intractable realities of DA2.

What will be the case, though, is that DA2 be a tactical RPG on the PC. Point & Click, party control, etc. The isometric camera will be gone and will be free-roam instead. This will be a hotly contested feature. But none of it is designed to make the PC play differently, just Bioware dealing with the business reality that the money is in the console version and the fact that version [i]must be playable and enjoyable.

Modifié par In Exile, 07 novembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[upsettingshorts]

Malevolence65 wrote...

I think they may be scared to show more stuff about the game. That's why they're putting it off.

That makes no sense.  If they legitimately fear that a majority people will dislike their game, why would they be making it?

[Malevolence65]

They don't think that the majority of people will dislike it, but they think that the hardcore RPG fans will. While that isn't the majority, it's still a lot of people.

[Maria Caliban]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Sounds good, but again, that message is not getting across to people.  Laidlaw posting some cryptic snippets of info in a thread on the forum is not the same as telling everyone what kind of game this fundementally is in an official way.  I think they're so focused on selling the changes to console gamers that they forgot to tell people the basics.

In almost every interview I've seen of Mike, he's said that they're taking DA:O combat and gameplay, and trying to make it more responsive and immersive. It's not crypic, it's just brief because he's also attempting to explain the narrative techniques, what the story is about, what they want to do with the game, how they want the player to feel, etc.

This interview is a classic example. He does say that they wanted to retain the tactical combat while improving responsiveness. He says it 2:33 in and it takes all of two seconds.

'The gameplay is basically the same' is something that takes only a moment to say. You don't have to *explain* 'it's the same' so you don't have to devote long periods of time to talking about the sameness.

[upsettingshorts]

Malevolence65 wrote...

They don't think that the majority of people will dislike it, but they think that the hardcore RPG fans will. While that isn't the majority, it's still a lot of people.

I think the only people who actually believe Bioware is holding back because they're afraid are the ones who claim Bioware is worried about offending them.  Egocentrism, basically.

But hey, maybe Mike Laidlaw can't sleep at night, thinking about all the people he's deliberately keeping in the dark, waking up in cold sweats thinking about what secrets he hasn't revealed to "hardcore RPG fans."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 novembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Malevolence65]

 Bioware isn't worried about offending anyone, they're worried about their sales.

[Maria Caliban]

To me, many conversations about DA II sound like this:

Person A: When I was back home, I met my niece for the first time. She's adorable.
Person B: What does she look like?
Person A: She's about *this* tall and looks like her mother only with this beautiful ring of curly red hair and these bright green eyes. And she's constantly moving around and playing with things. One day she managed to climb up onto the refrigerator.
Person B: What?! Your niece is an orangutan?
Person A: Huh?
Person B: Are you sure this is actually your niece? I bet EA switched out some ADHA orangutan for your niece.
Person A: My niece is human!
Person B: You're in on it too, aren't you?