128 réponses à ce sujet

[TheMufflon]

In Exile wrote...

No, dialogue is "story". It's the part of the portion of the game that mimics behaviour of the characters in the game as representative of human beings, instead of violating all known and accept laws of physics.

That argument in no way backs up the point you are trying to make. It does not conform to any established definition of story nor does it preclude it from being gameplay.

When you enter a conversation you are making decisions as to how the conversation will progress, it is a game and you are playing it.

[Lord Gremlin]

My Mistake wrote...

lol i like how people parade on forums saying they are canceling their preorders,

They mostly lie. Well, I've canceled 1 pre-order recently, Quantum Theory. 5 gb HDD install my ass...
I doubt any DA fans will willingly miss out on Signature Edition.

[In Exile]

TheMufflon wrote..

That argument in no way backs up the point you are trying to make. It does not conform to any established definition of story nor does it preclude it from being gameplay.

I'm not using the term story as any acceptable definition. It's why I have it in quotes, because I'm only using it to establish a demarcation. I could have as easily used "dialogue or exploration" mode, all to get at the same thing.

I don't consider dialogue gameplay. If everyone has a different definition of gameplay, I'll certainly revise it for the same of communication, but if gameplay refers to anything happening in the game then it's basically a vacuous concept that adds nothing to our discussion.

Beyond that, the argument does back up the point I'm trying to make because it has me explictly define what "story" and gameplay is, and how they are sets that simply do not overlap. Obviously if no one uses these terms this way I'm wrong and need to revise the definition.

[soteria]

I don't consider dialogue gameplay. If everyone has a different definition of gameplay, I'll certainly revise it for the same of communication, but if gameplay refers to anything happening in the game then it's basically a vacuous concept that adds nothing to our discussion.

For what it's worth, neither do I. I segregate story and gameplay--dialogue and lore and cutscenes fall under the former umbrella; combat and inventory and stats fall under the latter.

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

I don't consider dialogue gameplay. If everyone has a different definition of gameplay, I'll certainly revise it for the same of communication, but if gameplay refers to anything happening in the game then it's basically a vacuous concept that adds nothing to our discussion.

I don't think anyone defines gameplay as anything that happens. The cutscene after you fight the ogre, the interface, as well as art, music, quests, etc, aren't gameplay to me.

Alternatively, anytime I *make a decision in the game,* I will probably consider that gameplay.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I don't consider dialogue gameplay. If everyone has a different definition of gameplay, I'll certainly revise it for the same of communication, but if gameplay refers to anything happening in the game then it's basically a vacuous concept that adds nothing to our discussion.

What it adds is the recognition that dismissing some part of the game as "not gamepay" is a baseless position.

[AtreiyaN7]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

I would think this is a problem to be rectified.

The problem is the 'fans.' There is information out there, but it's buried under threads and threads of complaining and jumping to conclusions.

You want to know what the gameplay of DA II is?

Start up DA:O, play it. If you play in bird's eye view, zoom in a bit. Enter combat. Make the animations faster and add a bunch of new ones. These new ones will be 'awesome' and unrealistic. There will be lots of glowing things for the warrior and rogue.

Now end combat and talk to someone. A dialogue wheel pops up instead of a list. Pick an option - your PC says it aloud.

Now open your inventory screen. Try to take Alister's clothing off. You can't. Weapons, amulets, rings, and belts can be changes on a companion, but not the armor/clothing.

There, that's the gameplay. The same but with the above changes.

Basically they turned Origins into a piece of **** console action game.

Gee, I always love the insightful commentary from Jinstar.  Everyone else however has actually made excellent points about why the message isn't getting across. We've been assured that the tactical aspects are not gone on the PC and that it's basically still using the same combat system repeatedly by the devs, but if that's not enough for some people because they hate EA/don't trust the devs, then nothing is ever going to be good enough for them. I think some people just choose to willfully disregard information that's been repeatedly stated because they have their hearts set on hating the game due to the fact that they already despise the very idea of a voiced protagonist and/or dialogue wheel alone.

The fact that the console improvements are being emphasized atm and that we haven't seen more solid info on the PC version probably doesn't help matters any. Of course, we just got more info in the new podcast and the podcast screenshots, which you would think might at least made two things clear: 1) we still have a sizeable inventory and 2) our beloved PC toolbar is still intact.

Even with actual proof of an inventory though, you still get people starting hilarious threads like one in which the OP espouses the (laughable) idea that there are 75% fewer items. This is what I mean when I say there are those who willfully disregard information. Of course, there are those who are going to be (or are) upset about the companion armor/appearance functioning in a more ME2-esque style, and that would seem to be enough to confirm their worst fears. If it upsets certain people, well, they're entitled to their feelings.

I guess that along with the voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel, those inclined to do so now have enough information to make their "informed" decision to hate the game official. Cancel your pre-orders and vow not to buy the game - gogogo! Seriously though, people should probably at least stop acting like immature brats and throwing verbal tantrums because they're so horribly disappointed and hate consoles, console users and pretty much anyone who doesn't stick solely to playing hardcore RPGs only.

EDIT: fixed minor typos.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 07 novembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Xeper84]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

My Mistake wrote...

lol i like how people parade on forums saying they are canceling their preorders,

They mostly lie. Well, I've canceled 1 pre-order recently, Quantum Theory. 5 gb HDD install my ass...
I doubt any DA fans will willingly miss out on Signature Edition.

I'am a huge DA:O fan i will not get the Signature Edition. But i will not chancel my pre-order because i haven't yet pre-ordered it ^^.
ME2 was a huge disappointment and with all EA published games i will be very cautious. As a old pc gamer i know they have the abilities to ruin the best series and studios
C&C
need for speed
Medal of honour
...
Let's see and wait. so far DA2 is a no buy for me so far. i only read about stuff i liked is cut not improved . all i read is the same stuff i read about ME2 and that is a game i really don't like.

[Ildaron]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

I would think this is a problem to be rectified.

The problem is the 'fans.' There is information out there, but it's buried under threads and threads of complaining and jumping to conclusions.

You want to know what the gameplay of DA II is?

Start up DA:O, play it. If you play in bird's eye view, zoom in a bit. Enter combat. Make the animations faster and add a bunch of new ones. These new ones will be 'awesome' and unrealistic. There will be lots of glowing things for the warrior and rogue.

Now end combat and talk to someone. A dialogue wheel pops up instead of a list. Pick an option - your PC says it aloud.

Now open your inventory screen. Try to take Alister's clothing off. You can't. Weapons, amulets, rings, and belts can be changes on a companion, but not the armor/clothing.

There, that's the gameplay. The same but with the above changes.

Basically they turned Origins into a piece of **** console action game.

Gee, I always love the insightful commentary from Jinstar. : Everyone else however has actually made excellent points about why the message isn't getting across. We've been assured that the tactical aspects are not gone on the PC and that it's basically still using the same combat system repeatedly by the devs, but if that's not enough for some people because they hate EA/don't trust the devs, then nothing is ever going to be good enough for them. I think some people just choose to willfully disregard information that's been repeatedly stated because they have their hearts set on hating the game due to the fact that they already despise the very idea of a voiced protagonist and/or dialogue wheel alone.

The fact that the console improvements are being emphasized atm and that we haven't seen more solid info on the PC version probably doesn't help matters any. Of course, we just got more info in the new podcast and the podcast screenshots, which you would think might at least made two things clear: 1) we still have a sizeable inventory and 2) our beloved PC toolbar is still intact.

Even with actual proof of an inventory though, you still get people starting hilarious threads like one in which the OP espouses the (laughable) idea that there are 75% fewer items items. This is what I mean when I say there are those who willfully disregard information. Of course, there are those who are going to be (or are) upset about the companion armor/appearance functioning in a more ME2-esque style, and that would seem to be enough to confirm their worst fears. If it upsets certain people, well, they're entitled to their feelings.

I guess that along with the voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel, those inclined to do so now have enough information to make their "informed" decision to hate the game official. Cancel your pre-orders and vow not to buy the game - gogogo! Seriously though, people should probably at least stop acting like immature brats and throwing verbal tantrums because they're so horribly disappointed and hate consoles, console users and pretty much anyone who doesn't stick solely to playing hardcore RPGs only.

This was an example of "people should probably at least stop acting like immature brats and throwing verbal tantrums"?

[StingingVelvet]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

But I want to show you how there's still a crap-ton of Origins in DA II as much as you want to see it. I will beg for your patience: It's coming.

And you've likely earned that patience with your record of making awesome games.  It's just 4 months out seems like a time when we should know more about the fundemental gameplay aspects than we do.  I mean, maybe I am just super twitchy endangered species CRPG fan here, but waiting to find out if the game is an action game or tactical RPG is killing me!

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
What it adds is the recognition that dismissing some part of the game as "not gamepay" is a baseless position.

That adds nothing. What you are saying is this: gameplay is anything in the game. It is wrong for someone to argue that a feature in the game is not a feature in the game.

Well, I'll certainly agree to that, but the term gameplay has no value insofar as what we are discussing. It's so broad as to add nothing.

By your standard, if the UI has changed, then the gameplay has changed.

[StingingVelvet]

In Exile wrote...

Neither does it in DA:O. Your dialogue actually never affects gameplay.

That's not really a criticism of ME2's choices, given that I could as easily complain I can't tell Alistair and Duncan to shove pipes up their arses. You have to fight the blight, and you have to do it with Alistair.

Well Legion left my party and tried to kill me based on a dialogue choice... I think that was a pretty important gameplay effect.

[Xeper84]

I really think it will be a tactical game on pc "just" with less options and less tactics or fewer options in character development at least thats what it sounds like.

[slimgrin]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

But I want to show you how there's still a crap-ton of Origins in DA II as much as you want to see it. I will beg for your patience: It's coming.

And you've likely earned that patience with your record of making awesome games.  It's just 4 months out seems like a time when we should know more about the fundemental gameplay aspects than we do.  I mean, maybe I am just super twitchy endangered species CRPG fan here, but waiting to find out if the game is an action game or tactical RPG is killing me!

As actiony as ME2 is, you can still effectively pause and take a deliberate tactical approach, if that's any consolation.

Heh...get it? Consolation...? Ok, I'll shut up.

[Rawgrim]

Frightfully good pun, I must say!

[Ahzrei]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

But I want to show you how there's still a crap-ton of Origins in DA II as much as you want to see it. I will beg for your patience: It's coming.

*Hands Mike some patience*

Modifié par Ahzrei, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Truth be told, Risen is also garbage, yet some "special" people still like it.

By 'truth,' Lord Gremlin means 'in my opinion.' By special people, he means people who like small, niche RPGs.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[Xeper84]

risen was a ok RPG on PC i know it was technically poor on consoles but i don't care

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

By your standard, if the UI has changed, then the gameplay has changed.

And it has.

By excluding the UI (or dialogue) from the definition of gameplay it allows the rhetorical marginalisation of those aspects of the game.

I'm not going to let you get away with that.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...



Gee, I always love the insightful commentary from Jinstar.  Everyone else however has actually made excellent points about why the message isn't getting across. We've been assured that the tactical aspects are not gone on the PC and that it's basically still using the same combat system repeatedly by the devs, but if that's not enough for some people because they hate EA/don't trust the devs, then nothing is ever going to be good enough for them. I think some people just choose to willfully disregard information that's been repeatedly stated because they have their hearts set on hating the game due to the fact that they already despise the very idea of a voiced protagonist and/or dialogue wheel alone.

The fact that the console improvements are being emphasized atm and that we haven't seen more solid info on the PC version probably doesn't help matters any. Of course, we just got more info in the new podcast and the podcast screenshots, which you would think might at least made two things clear: 1) we still have a sizeable inventory and 2) our beloved PC toolbar is still intact.

Even with actual proof of an inventory though, you still get people starting hilarious threads like one in which the OP espouses the (laughable) idea that there are 75% fewer items. This is what I mean when I say there are those who willfully disregard information. Of course, there are those who are going to be (or are) upset about the companion armor/appearance functioning in a more ME2-esque style, and that would seem to be enough to confirm their worst fears. If it upsets certain people, well, they're entitled to their feelings.

I guess that along with the voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel, those inclined to do so now have enough information to make their "informed" decision to hate the game official. Cancel your pre-orders and vow not to buy the game - gogogo! Seriously though, people should probably at least stop acting like immature brats and throwing verbal tantrums because they're so horribly disappointed and hate consoles, console users and pretty much anyone who doesn't stick solely to playing hardcore RPGs only.

EDIT: fixed minor typos.

No option to change companion armor, limited or possibly no ability to change companion skills, the dreaded shuffle that really only the devs complain about has been replaced with a "warp across the screen at lightning speed". Voiced protagonist, dialog wheel. 

How many more reasons does one need to see the game is essentially Mass Effect with swords? And until they show some actual PC footage of combat that isn't a cinematic marketing trailer that proves otherwise along with the tactical camera still being in the game, thats my stance.

I like my PS3 but I perfer my RPG's on the PC, where they usually not only play better but tend to be more hardcore and less actiony ala Devil May Cry, or Dynasty Warrors for exampe. If that means I "hate console players" or whatever  hey have a field day.

Don't like it? Don't read my posts.

[Morrigans God son]

WE ARE ALL TO REMAIN CIVIL, BUT GOSH IT'S SO HARD!

I...hate....these...changes.

[Maverick827]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

No option to change companion armor

We can change everything but three pieces, and some companions may have a few "upgrades" along the way.  We can also gem, I believe.

limited or possibly no ability to change companion skills

Untrue; we can see the Swashbuckler tree well enough.

the dreaded shuffle that really only the devs complain about has been replaced with a "warp across the screen at lightning speed"

I complain about it all the time.  Also, the "warp across the screen at lightning speed" gripe has nothing to do with being Mass Effect-like; that's just your personal gripe.  Adding it to your list of things that make DA2 Mass Effecty is invalid.

Voiced protagonist, dialog wheel

Many games have a voice protagonist; at least one other series has a dialog wheel, but I'll give you that one. However DA2 is going in their own direction with the wheel, which is something we have known for a very long time.

How many more reasons does one need to see the game is essentially Mass Effect with swords?

More than the generously granted one valid reason that you've given.

Don't like it? Don't read my posts.

It's not that I don't like it, it's just the novelty is starting to fade.

Modifié par Maverick827, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

No option to change companion armor, limited or possibly no ability to change companion skills, the dreaded shuffle that really only the devs complain about has been replaced with a "warp across the screen at lightning speed".

You shoot yourself in the foot with your  misrepresentations of the facts. A large number of people have complained about combat speed, probably the majority in fact.

[AtreiyaN7]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

No option to change companion armor, limited or possibly no ability to change companion skills, the dreaded shuffle that really only the devs complain about has been replaced with a "warp across the screen at lightning speed". Voiced protagonist, dialog wheel. 

How many more reasons does one need to see the game is essentially Mass Effect with swords? And until they show some actual PC footage of combat that isn't a cinematic marketing trailer that proves otherwise along with the tactical camera still being in the game, thats my stance.

I like my PS3 but I perfer my RPG's on the PC, where they usually not only play better but tend to be more hardcore and less actiony ala Devil May Cry, or Dynasty Warrors for exampe. If that means I "hate console players" or whatever  hey have a field day.

Don't like it? Don't read my posts.

What you said earlier: Basically they turned Origins into a piece of **** console action game.

I believe that you're perfectly entitled to hate the game or to view it as an entirely different animal for every one of the reasons that you listed because they''re issues that matter to you. It's just that you seem unable to go more than a few days without expressing your opinions in an overtly hostile way. *shrug* After seeing your response to Maria in a separate thread this evening and being somewhat agog at your astounding level of incivility, I think we have absolutely nothing to discuss.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 08 novembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

You shoot yourself in the foot with your  misrepresentations of the facts. A large number of people have complained about combat speed, probably the majority in fact.

A majority of people where?

Here?  There are tens of thousands of registered users.  Have a majority of them complained?