276 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

errant_knight wrote...

I can't argue with that. Wish I could.

Yes, yes you could.

Did you feel that Dragon Age: Origins was nothing but a blatant cash grab? Is Dragon Age II built by the same company? Do you think that in a single year, BioWare's entire philosophy would go from "Build games people love" to "Money! Money! Money!"?

A few days ago, you said that DA:O was one of the few games you really liked. If you enjoyed DA:O that much, why not try DA II instead of dismissing it out of hand as inferior?

[aaniadyen]

The Masked Rog wrote...

relhart wrote...

Eh, plenty of more "Oldschoolish" RPG's this year and next. I'm playing Drakensang 2 now, and will be getting the Witcher 2 when it releases, I'm ok with DAO being a button mashing action RPG, as long as it's a good one,(and it loos like it's going to be). True it's a bit disappointing considering what the first game was, people just need to move on and support different dev teams if they can't get over it I guess.

I thought the Witcher was even more actiony than DA2. While in DA2 we have different abilities, pause and command and no combos, The Witcher has combos, mostly useless pause and click to attack. Plus less armor and sword variation.

The Witcher: 4 peices of armor, 16 weapons, and fans who **** about complexity in games that have five times that number of both.

[errant_knight]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I can't argue with that. Wish I could.

Yes, yes you could.

Did you feel that Dragon Age: Origins was nothing but a blatant cash grab? Is Dragon Age II built by the same company? Do you think that in a single year, BioWare's entire philosophy would go from "Build games people love" to "Money! Money! Money!"?

A few days ago, you said that DA:O was one of the few games you really liked. If you enjoyed DA:O that much, why not try DA II instead of dismissing it out of hand as inferior?

1. I wasn't agreeing that it was a cash grab, I was agreeing that they don't care if they lose gamers who don't like the changes. I think they think that what they're doing is awesome. I just don't happen to agree.
2. I didn't say that it was inferior, I'm saying that what I see are a whole lot of elements that I really don't like in games based on past experience. That doesn't make it inferior. That makes it something that doesn't attract me.
3. They've gone out of their way NOT to make it like DA:O and are emphasizing that, so I see no reason to assume that because I liked DA:O, I'll like this.
4. I didn't say I wasn't going to try it. If the cameos are significant, and the story is good, then I'll probably buy it at some point and give it a go. That doesn't mean I'm keen on the changes, each one of which removes something from what I liked about DA:O rather than adding to it. The only reason this is still true is that I liked DA:O as much as I did, and still care about the characters and the game world. If this was a brand new game, I wouldn't even be considering it as a purchase.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 novembre 2010 - 09:52 .

[slimgrin]

aaniadyen wrote...

The Witcher: 4 peices of armor, 16 weapons, and fans who **** about complexity in games that have five times that number of both.

Please. Have you played through the entire game? The complexity lies in preparation for combat, story choices, and alchemy use. It has, for my money, one of the most effective alchemy and potion systems out there, actively discouraging spamming of potions, something that even DA allows.

And for everyone who hates The Witcher, good for you. It sold around 1.5 million copies on an 'outdated' platform without EA's or Microsoft's help. That doesn't happen by accident. Tired of Witcher fans? Quit spamming bull sh*t about the game and they will go away.

Modifié par slimgrin, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[Angarma]

The Director wrote...

Dodok wrote...

Sometimes I think Morrigan in Witch Hunt was speaking on Bioware's behalf when it comes to DA2.

(Dialogue is hardly a spoiler, read at your own peril)

Flemeth once told me that temptation lies in the forbidden. "Do not follow me,"
I said. Harder words I have never spoken. Some doors should never be re-opened.


Change is coming to the world. Many fear change and will fight it with every fiber of their being.
But sometimes change is what they need most. Sometimes change is what sets them free.


I cannot tarry longer. The time has come for me to go.


(End of potentially harmful spoilers that could hurt some poor and vulnerable Dragon Age fan)

We were all warned by Morrigan, you heard it from me first.
That is if you bought the dlc : Witch Hunt, if you did not, you are a terrible person who needs to be put to the torch.

Whew! Glad I'm not the only one who thought that!

Well you should had said something before. Now I've only gone and stolen your potential forum post.

/wall of text on

From what I can gather off this forum is that people want to see more cameos, more continuation from DA:O.
Yes even I want this very badly. Whenever I see that Gaider has shot down a possible cameo, I cry a little inside.
But I have come to the understanding that DA:O to DA2 will be what Mass Effect was to Mass Effect 2: not much.

For a game to function on it's own, even if it is a part of a series, it needs freedom so that it can change with times,
particulary when a new hero arrives on the scene. Most understand this too late and vent their anger out on devs.
My advice to most is to try this new story, have fun in it like Origins, by the time you finished it DA3 will most likely be some way into development.

After waiting for a year or so you'll be rewarded with a pleasant surprise for your faith in Bioware: continuation of most of DA:O's story. No doubt we will hear the developers say how wrong they were for removing the origins in DA2,
how stupid they were for doing this or that, how they deeply annoyed the fans in this department and that they will make up for all of it in DA3.

When it comes to this whole gameplay annoyance I just think that is the old PC user paranoia.
The developers have said basically: we are working on the consoles, not doing anything to the pcs.
I chuckle whenever someone starts going "they worked on the consoles! they like them better than us!"

I mean all we can base that on is two things 1) an exaggerated gameplay demo on the consoles 2) developers saying they need to work on the consoles.

/wall of text off

Modifié par Dodok, 07 novembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

errant_knight wrote...

1. I wasn't agreeing that it was a cash grab, I was agreeing that they don't care if they lose gamers who don't like the changes. I think they think that what they're doing is awesome. I just don't happen to agree.
2. I didn't say that it was inferior, I'm saying that what I see are a whole lot of elements that I really don't like in games based on past experience. That doesn't make it inferior. That makes it something that doesn't attract me.
3. They've gone out of their way NOT to make it like DA:O and are emphasizing that, so I see no reason to assume that because I liked DA:O, I'll like this.
4. I didn't say I wasn't going to try it. If the cameos are significant, and the story is good, then I'll probably buy it at some point and give it a go. That doesn't mean I'm keen on the changes, each one of which removes something from what I liked about DA:O rather than adding to it. The only reason this is still true is that I liked DA:O as much as I did, and still care about the characters and the game world. If this was a brand new game, I wouldn't even be considering it as a purchase.

...sorry. I shouldn't have said anything.

[aaniadyen]

slimgrin wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

The Witcher: 4 peices of armor, 16 weapons, and fans who **** about complexity in games that have five times that number of both.

Please. Have you played through the entire game? The complexity lies in preparation for combat, story choices, and alchemy use. It has, for my money, one of the most effective alchemy and potion systems out there, actively discouraging spamming of potions, something that even DA allows.

And for everyone who hates The Witcher, good for you. It sold around 1.5 million copies on an 'outdated' platform without EA or Microsoft's help. That doesn't happen by accident. Tired of Witcher fans? Quit spamming bull sh*t about the game and they will go away.

I liked the Witcher enough to buy it and complete it, but what I said was true. Was trying to make the point that the Witcher is a different type of game, so the fact that it only had so many options for equipment doesn't matter. Thanks for calling me a spammer though.

[ENolan]

Dodok wrote...

The Director wrote...

Dodok wrote...

Sometimes I think Morrigan in Witch Hunt was speaking on Bioware's behalf when it comes to DA2.

(Dialogue is hardly a spoiler, read at your own peril)

Flemeth once told me that temptation lies in the forbidden. "Do not follow me,"
I said. Harder words I have never spoken. Some doors should never be re-opened.


Change is coming to the world. Many fear change and will fight it with every fiber of their being.
But sometimes change is what they need most. Sometimes change is what sets them free.


I cannot tarry longer. The time has come for me to go.


(End of potentially harmful spoilers that could hurt some poor and vulnerable Dragon Age fan)

We were all warned by Morrigan, you heard it from me first.
That is if you bought the dlc : Witch Hunt, if you did not, you are a terrible person who needs to be put to the torch.

Whew! Glad I'm not the only one who thought that!

Well you should had said something before. Now I've only gone and stolen your potential forum post.

Believe me, my friend, I didn't need it.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I suppose I'm still in denial as I see a number of differences between the series. I see DA:O with:
1) Faster gameplay
2) Unique companion armor
3) Full VO
4) New conversation interface
5) New skill interface

For me, none of those where the definition features of the Dragon Age series. They certainly don't make a fantasy tactical, party-based RPG into science fiction shooter RPG.

1 kinda like ME2
2 Ripped right out of ME2
3 See 2
4 also see 2
5 Might actually be decent

I don't think anyone is saying DA2 is a science fiction shooter, what they are saying is the elements that they didn't like in ME2 are making their way to DA2.

[ErichHartmann]

slimgrin wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

The Witcher: 4 peices of armor, 16 weapons, and fans who **** about complexity in games that have five times that number of both.

Please. Have you played through the entire game? The complexity lies in preparation for combat, story choices, and alchemy use. It has, for my money, one of the most effective alchemy and potion systems out there, actively discouraging spamming of potions, something that even DA allows.

And for everyone who hates The Witcher, good for you. It sold around 1.5 million copies on an 'outdated' platform without EA or Microsoft's help. That doesn't happen by accident. Tired of Witcher fans? Quit spamming bull sh*t about the game and they will go away.

All true but it doesn't negate the fact The Witcher has very little customization for Geralt.  I'm won't say that's bad because the choices we can make within the story are very strong.  I think DAII will benefit from a focused storyline on a single character.  Difference being of course we can customize Hawke.  (I'd love The Witcher even more if they allowed a female protagonist). 

[AlanC9]

I'm not sure you and Maria have a real disagreement here, Sarah. Maria's saying that what she thinks is distinctive about DA:O isn't on that list in the first place, so where those things come from doesn't matter.



IOW, the two series could still be essentially different and stuff that you (plural) don't like about ME2 could have been imported into DA2. So you're both right.

[Nerevar-as]

aaniadyen wrote...

I liked the Witcher enough to buy it and complete it, but what I said was true. Was trying to make the point that the Witcher is a different type of game, so the fact that it only had so many options for equipment doesn't matter. Thanks for calling me a spammer though.

Must be the Dark Fantasy marketing thing. Otherwise they have little in common. I didn´t buy DA:O to feel the same I felt playing TW. I wouldn´t be buying DA2 if I had. The problem is DA2 may no longer have what I wanted and found in Origins either.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:57 .

[Revan312]

Hey, changes inspire discomfort and or defense, especially when they're changes to a well received and loved franchise such is the like of DA:O.

I'm a complainer at heart when it comes to games, I got burned by ME2 when I let the hype get to me and starting thinking that it was going to be this amazing game built upon the foundations of it's predecessor, expanded in new and innovative ways, and I was wrong, that's why I assume simplification is in the future for Bioware and all of it's IP's.

Complainers are no different than the apologists such as Saibh, Maria and Upsettingshorts who feel that any discomfort at the news of changes and/or questions as to the direction of DA is a sign of whining and ungratefulness, two sides of the same coin, and I'll wholly admit that I'm a "hater" when it comes to Bioware as of ME2 and the new changes I've been seeing with DA's direction. The one difference between the two ideologically that I can see is that complainers want others to jump on the bandwagon of hate while apologists want to remove the doubts from others minds by acting as though any concern is superfluous and ungrounded.. Both belittle and both have ego problems so in the end, whether or not your one or the other it doesn't matter, all that does seem relevent is discovering the truth behind the curtain of game info, and I hope we can all agree on that.

However, admittance is the first step to knowing your defined role within a conversation but most can't seem to muster the courage to say they're a "hater" or "apologist", I wish more would as it would get to the heart of debate and information gathering much quicker than back and forths with next to no value.

Hater/apologist conversation

"I'm worried they turned DA into ME2 and that the things I loved are gone"
"Your worries are unfounded and misguided"
"But I think others should be worried about the proposed changes"
"No they shouldn't"
"yes they should"
"No they shouldn't......" etc etc etc

Not that I'm free of falling into the trap of never ending, circular arguments, but I try not to as a general rule.

Modifié par Revan312, 08 novembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[aaniadyen]

Nerevar-as wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

I liked the Witcher enough to buy it and complete it, but what I said was true. Was trying to make the point that the Witcher is a different type of game, so the fact that it only had so many options for equipment doesn't matter. Thanks for calling me a spammer though.

Must be the Dark Fantasy marketing thing. Otherwise they have little in common. I didn´t buy DA:O to feel the same I felt playing TW. I wouldn´t be buying DA2 if I had. The problem is DA2 may no longer have what I wanted and found in Origins either.

Well, Dragon Age 2 might be a slightly different style than DA:O. I don't think this automatically makes it a bad game, just different.

[GreyWarden777]

I personally believe like aaniadyen and others said the game won't be be bad you just have to look at it like Assassin's Creed esq with the great first game and radically different but still way better sequel-



Atleast thats how I've been looking at it

[errant_knight]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

1. I wasn't agreeing that it was a cash grab, I was agreeing that they don't care if they lose gamers who don't like the changes. I think they think that what they're doing is awesome. I just don't happen to agree.
2. I didn't say that it was inferior, I'm saying that what I see are a whole lot of elements that I really don't like in games based on past experience. That doesn't make it inferior. That makes it something that doesn't attract me.
3. They've gone out of their way NOT to make it like DA:O and are emphasizing that, so I see no reason to assume that because I liked DA:O, I'll like this.
4. I didn't say I wasn't going to try it. If the cameos are significant, and the story is good, then I'll probably buy it at some point and give it a go. That doesn't mean I'm keen on the changes, each one of which removes something from what I liked about DA:O rather than adding to it. The only reason this is still true is that I liked DA:O as much as I did, and still care about the characters and the game world. If this was a brand new game, I wouldn't even be considering it as a purchase.

...sorry. I shouldn't have said anything.

Not a problem. And believe me when I say I hope I'm entirely wrong. I want to be wrong, and I'll have no trouble admitting it if I am.

[TuringPoint]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Now a lot of people are starting to accept that DA2 is obviously pretty different from Origins and has a lot in common with ME2 and we either play it or don't.

It's really stange.

 I think there are actually a lot of people who don't perceive the differences as terribly significant, but either way, DA2 will be what it will be.

It is too bad we don't get the origin stories and all the choices about race and background we did in DA:O, and that's where my sadness ends.  Overall I'm pretty excited that there's a new entry in the same franchise.  New adventures and all that, a new character, even if it's not the one I grew with in DA:O.

[Maria Caliban]

I was going to take offense to the use of the term apologist until I remember that some people use the term correctly.

To be honest, I don't understand the mindset of the loudest complainers. BioWare won't alter aspects of Dragon Age II at this point and they're not going to listen to our opinion of the game until it actually comes out. In addition, I see a number of people who seem to be actively digging for bad will from David and Mike.

Despite being an apologist, I am still very ambivalent about the change in art style. I don't think I've ever said anything positive about the new combat animations, instead describing them as 'awesome' and glittery.

Could I go into thread after thread to talk about how the new art style sucks, how the environment is ugly, and how all the glowing effects are stupid? Sure. But that would be pointless!* I think it's a much better use of my time and energy to play through the game and then give my opinion on the matter, backed with screenshots and detailed thoughts about what I liked and didn't like.

Developers are far more open to criticism of a game from people who've played the game, who don't suggest they've sold out or dumbed down, and who can offer something a bit more nuanced than 'I hate it.'

*And boring and an insulting level of hyperbole.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:24 .

[thegreateski]

5 stages of grief? So far the only thing I've seen is . . .

A) People who love the game no matter what.
People who hate the game no matter what (yet still post here).
C) People who will wait until the game is out to make any opinions.
D) People who post on these forums simply for the sake of posting.

I'm a big fan of option D.

Modifié par thegreateski, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Thorn18]

Bioware can say all the things they want. Show me some PC gameplay footage that proves it is like the previous game.



4 Months to go and I'm not happy with these changes.

[Archereon]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Has anyone else noticed a lot people seemingly going through the 5 stages of grief in regard to DA2 and how much it differentiates from DAO and how similar it is to ME2? First I sort of noticed it myself but now I'm seeing it in a lot the prominent forumites here.
First news came out like "Press a button and something AWESOME HAPPENS!" and "Think like a gerneral, fight like a Spartan!" and people just attributed it to a goofy marketing department and wrote it off. Surely they wouldn't tamper with our beloved DAO in such a way.
Then the terrible marketing lines started to permiate our minds and the game was looking more and more like an action game and not a tactical RPG. Not to mention a few devs made mention of the top-down view being gone and replaced by a less encompassing view and people started flipping out. Like crazy.
Then tons of people started pumping devs for questions, trying to find a middle ground and acting as though they could change the game because they asked very politely(or not politely at all in some cases).
Then everyone started acting like we were the victims of some great cosmic injustice, like we were being punished for enjoying Origins too much. The other shoe had dropped.
Now a lot of people are starting to accept that DA2 is obviously pretty different from Origins and has a lot in common with ME2 and we either play it or don't.

It's really stange.

I've being going through the 5 stages constantly every time news is released.  Every change seems to move the game away from what I want from this game, every...single...one...I finally accept that ultimately it'll be tolerable, then another feature that I don't like (or don't wan't in Dragon Age) is announced.

If this trend continues, soon DA2 will go from "MUST HAVE" to "some action game I'll rent to pass the time until Diablo 3, a well made action game, is released."

Modifié par Archereon, 08 novembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Saibh]

thegreateski wrote...

5 stages of grief? So far the only thing I've seen is . . .

A) People who love the game no matter what.
People who hate the game no matter what (yet still post here).
C) People who will wait until the game is out to make any opinions.
D) People who post on these forums simply for the sake of posting.

I'm a big fan of option D.

Well, that's closed minded of you.

There's a middle ground of not liking most of the changes, or only disliking some of the changes, too.

In any case, I've seen a lot of what the OP has talked about.

[Brockololly]

Thorn18 wrote...

Bioware can say all the things they want. Show me some PC gameplay footage that proves it is like the previous game.

4 Months to go and I'm not happy with these changes.

I'm Brockololly and I approve this messageB)

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:11 .

[thegreateski]

That's rather my point actually. The people who are in the middle ground generally aren't very vocal with their opinions as they know there isn't anything they can really do to change Bioware's mind.



and I've tried to keep an open mind but people keep trying to put things in it. Jerks.

[syllogi]

Maria Caliban wrote...


I was going to take offense to the use of the term apologist until I remember that some people use the term correctly.

To be honest, I don't understand the mindset of the loudest complainers. BioWare won't alter aspects of Dragon Age II at this point and they're not going to listen to our opinion of the game until it actually comes out. In addition, I see a number of people who seem to be actively digging for bad will from David and Mike.

Despite being an apologist, I am still very ambivalent about the change in art style. I don't think I've ever said anything positive about the new combat animations, instead describing them as 'awesome' and glittery.

Could I go into thread after thread to talk about how the new art style sucks, how the environment is ugly, and how all the glowing effects are stupid? Sure. But that would be pointless!* I think it's a much better use of my time and energy to play through the game and then give my opinion on the matter, backed with screenshots and detailed thoughts about what I liked and didn't like.

Developers are far more open to criticism of a game from people who've played the game, who don't suggest they've sold out or dumbed down, and who can offer something a bit more nuanced than 'I hate it.'

*And boring and an insulting level of hyperbole.

The problem is, however, that once you've bought DA2, your opinion no longer counts to Bioware, according to what they seem to be doing now.  I *thought* that by buying DA:O on release day, as well as the expansion and DLC, I was showing the developers that I enjoyed the game, and wanted something similar in the sequel, even if it wasn't exactly the same.

What I'm seeing now is developers who don't have anything positive to say about DA:O, and knock all of the elements that they are changing, even if some of us really liked those things in the first game.  So apparently supporting them by buying their product means nothing.  Bioware doesn't care about the current customer.  They want to entice those who are potential customers.

So I'll be watching and waiting, and probably buying this a year after release.  It's what I did with Jade Empire and Mass Effect 1.  ME was a pleasant surprise, while I wasn't enthralled by JE.  At the moment, I have no idea what to think of DA2, and that's just sad.  They're treating it like a new IP, and alienating fans like me.  Guess my money wasn't good enough to be catered to.